Stereo Speaker Choice

[venk61176]

My friend you are not realizing. At same price point stereo amplifier will offer much more over AV receiver if preference is music.

AVMax reviews may not be of great quality, but they do have full list of available bookshelves and their recommendation of price point

Bookshelves Speakers they have listed for this month issue is quite a good collection

B&W CM5
Focal chorus 807v
Mission 790SE
Paradigm Reference Studio design 10 v 5
Totem Rainmaker
Elac BS
Acoustic Aero Elite
KEF Q300
DLS M60
Klispch RB-61 II
Wharfdale Jade

Similar list for floorstanders will follow in sept.

When it comes to speakers, personal taste varies greatly and my suggestion to audition as much as possible.

Thanks
Venkat

 

[reignofchaos]

Anyone using multi channel equipment for stereo and claiming that you can't do better seriously needs to either go audition some real stereo equipment or needs to get his head and ears examined.

Also I own an Onkyo TX-SR577 and have auditioned the 608 side by side with it. I preferred the lower power version as it was mellower. The 608 and I'm guessing the 609 which is just an evolutionary change sounded screechy as hell.

This was in pure direct mode with all filters and processing disabled.

Coming to pure music listening, my 30 year old Musical Fidelity A1 which is rated at 20W/ch murders every onkyo receiver I've heard including their pre-power combo. Lets not talk about higher end amps.

 

[sdurani]

I am ready to challenge on the basis of specs, if you can get Onkyo or other AV receiver manufactures to list details as Krell Evolution 600e...

This is a good lesson in just how far you have to go in order to challenge AV receivers on the basis of specs: you have to resort to an $18,500.00 monoblock amplifier (can't even throw a stereo soundstage, because it is a single channel). If that's what it takes to outdo a receiver, then you've unwittingly made a case for AVRs.

I can vouch for...

Take my word...

I can prove...

And when not going by specs, this is what it comes down to: having to accept your word on faith.

 

[sidvee]

Anyone using multi channel equipment for stereo and claiming that you can't do better seriously needs to either go audition some real stereo equipment or needs to get his head and ears examined.

This was in pure direct mode with all filters and processing disabled.

Coming to pure music listening, my 30 year old Musical Fidelity A1 which is rated at 20W/ch murders every onkyo receiver I've heard including their pre-power combo. Lets not talk about higher end amps.

+1 ROC. I compared my 15 year old Cyrus III int. amp. to the denon 2310 in pure direct stereo mode and the Cyrus walked all over the denon - specifically in areas like soundstage depth, imaging, bass extension, vocal resolution etc. And guess what the Denon is ahead in specs. In fact when I compared the 2310 to my 7 year old Pioneer Elite VSx52x AVR -both are roughly in the same price range - the Pioneer was much better in Stereo mode. New receivers, specially in the sub $1k (US market) range are generally crappy for music - exceptions may exist - but I have not heard one yet. It must be the high obsolesence rate in AVR's, just like PC's, that make manufacturers cheapen every new model, yet post stellar specs.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[captrajesh]

As for trusting your own ears, our hearing is easily influenced by what we see. It's called the McGurk effect.

What is McGurk effect got to do with auditioning equipment! Are you implying that one's brain tricks one to believe that Stereo amps sound better than AVRs? Then what about if one is comparing two different Stereo amps. How does one decide which sounds better other than by listening? How does the "McGurk effect" help him/her?

I'll give you a personal example. I recently bought a Tube Preamp and an SS dual mono Power Amp. I used a certain set of inter connects and speaker cables. I thereafter bought an interconnect and speaker cables which is supposed to be much more expensive than the one I'm using. To my utter dismay, I found that the magic was totally missing. Thereafter, I had to go on official tour and came back only by weekend. One of my audiophile friends who is a firm believer of cables being 'more of snake oil than substance' came over to check out the new gear. I started to play familiar tracks when he has commented that the Bass was missing. I realised that I didn't revert to my original cable combo; To see how the differences manifest, I decided to make changes in increments. I paused the music and first changed the I/c and played. There it is, bass was back he said. I then changed the speaker cable and the difference in sound was so palpable, that he was perplexed. Could you explain why was "McGurk effect" didn't come into play here?

I returned those cables and got my refund. I then purchased a complete set of cables viz 2 i/cs and speaker cable from one of the forum members who had them as surplus. The difference they made to the setup was fantastic. The bass went lower, the kick drum sounded bigger, the sound stage improved, the instrument separation was more palpable. AFAIK, all these changes can only be perceived not measured.

No one said they did. But in lieu of beep buying several integrated amps (Cambridge Audio, Norge, Marantz) and an Onkyo receiver, and doing his own level-matched blind listening comparison, is there anything objective that he can base his purchasing decision on besides specs? Or is he supposed to accept the subjective opinions of other people based on their (not his) personal preference?

If people claim that stereo amps have better sound quality than AVRs, but cannot point to one audible spec to support that claim, what should you do?

According to me, he should audition, audition and audition a bit more. There cannot be any shortcut here. Then he must take a decision by trusting his ears and his ears only.

 

[sdurani]

What is McGurk effect got to do with auditioning equipment!

Everything. I don't know if you watched the video I linked to, but it demonstrates how seeing something can not only influence what we hear but actually override our hearing (as well as other senses). As I mentioned previously, this is why serious listening comparisons are done blind (just as major wine tasting competitions are done with the labels covered). Speaker manufacturers such as Axiom, Energy, Infinity, JBL, Mirage, Paradigm, PSB, Revel, use blind testing extensively in designing their loudspeakers.

If you can see the items being compared, whether it is audio equipment or wine, then you are being biased. If you cannot see the cables or amplifiers being compared, then you are relying on your hearing (and ONLY your hearing).

Well worth reading: Sighted Listening Tests.

 

[doors666]

I'll give you a personal example. I recently bought a Tube Preamp and an SS dual mono Power Amp. I used a certain set of inter connects and speaker cables. I thereafter bought an interconnect and speaker cables which is supposed to be much more expensive than the one I'm using. To my utter dismay, I found that the magic was totally missing. Thereafter, I had to go on official tour and came back only by weekend. One of my audiophile friends who is a firm believer of cables being 'more of snake oil than substance' came over to check out the new gear. I started to play familiar tracks when he has commented that the Bass was missing. I realised that I didn't revert to my original cable combo; To see how the differences manifest, I decided to make changes in increments. I paused the music and first changed the I/c and played. There it is, bass was back he said. I then changed the speaker cable and the difference in sound was so palpable, that he was perplexed. Could you explain why was "McGurk effect" didn't come into play here?

I returned those cables and got my refund. I then purchased a complete set of cables viz 2 i/cs and speaker cable from one of the forum members who had them as surplus. The difference they made to the setup was fantastic. The bass went lower, the kick drum sounded bigger, the sound stage improved, the instrument separation was more palpable. AFAIK, all these changes can only be perceived not measured.

Sure you can measure. Get an LCR meter and measure the L, C, R values for both the cables. You will find out what's the difference.

 

[Bluu]

Interesting discussion.

Cheap stereo amps can be beat by equally priced AVRs. However, once we reach the serious-end of stereo amps, no AVR can keep up simply because the internals on the higher-end stereo amps are much better than the ones in AVRs (and low-end stereo amps). Here, I'm not talking about mega-$ monoblocks. I'm talking about relatively affordable stuff.

Also, aren't AVRs designed for use with multi-channel systems? Why would you want to use a 8 or more channel AVR to drive two speakers?

 

[captrajesh]

Everything. I don't know if you watched the video I linked to, but it demonstrates how seeing something can not only influence what we hear but actually override our hearing (as well as other senses).

I've seen that video 2 times. From the way he is using his lips the guy seems to be saying 'Fa' but he is actually saying 'Pa'. Depending on whether you are able to see the video along with the sound or not, you hear 'Fa' or 'Pa' respectively.

This is no different from the optical illusions shown in the website whose link someone posted earlier. To the ear, the sound sounds ambiguous; it could be both 'Fa' or 'Pa'. Are there anymore examples to demonstrate the 'Mcgurk effect'

BTW, you have not addressed my other query on what happens with regard to Mcgurk effect if someone has to compare two different Stereo Amps? Also, why didn't the Mcgurk effect come into picture when I introduced the new, much more expensive cables into the system chain? I'd appreciate if you could explain these.

 

[sdurani]

To the ear, the sound sounds ambiguous; it could be both 'Fa' or 'Pa'.

How is that possible that it "could be both" when he's only saying "ba"?

BTW, you have not addressed my other query on what happens with regard to Mcgurk effect if someone has to compare two different Stereo Amps? Also, why didn't the Mcgurk effect come into picture when I introduced the new, much more expensive cables into the system chain?

What makes you so sure that visual bias didn't come into the picture? You're starting from the premise that what you heard was in no way influenced by what you saw, when there is no way to verify that. If you had done the same comparisons in a controlled manner (level-matched and double-blind) and gotten the same results, then you can ask why visual stimuli has no influence on you.

 

[beep]

I am ready to challenge on the basis of specs, if you can get Onkyo or other AV receiver manufactures to list details as Krell

Power Supply

The Evolution 600e is equipped 2 2,200 VA transformers and 108,000 F. This power source is the backbone for the output of the Evolution 600e. With this foundation, the Evolution 600e delivers 600 watts into 8 Ohms, 1,200 watts into 4 Ohms, and 2,400 watts into 2 Ohms. The FTC mandates that power ratings are quoted using a 1,000 Hz sine wave into a fixed 8 Ohm resistor with final power specification stated at 1% distortion. Krell engineering considers this specification too lenient and not indicative of what an amplifier is required to provide. Krell designs to a much stricter standard. Our power tests use a 20-20,000Hz signal into 8, 4, and 2 Ohm loads with our final specifications stated for .1% distortion.

Internal high-current line conditioning circuitry effectively blocks RF noise entering via the AC line and compensates for any asymmetry or DC offset in the power waveforms. The amplifiers' low level and gain stages are powered via multi regulated rails that provide total immunity from supply fluctuations and assure noise-free circuit operation. Primary rail voltages are quasi-regulated, enabling an "on-demand" supply of power that is highly responsive to dynamic load

Thanks
Venkat

That spec is used by most AVRs. Onkyo 809 has the following:
135 W + 135 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Krell is at 0.15%.
So the signal / test environment used is the same. But, yes the Krell has much lesser distortion. As we saw earlier, anything below 1% distortion is indistinguishable to the human ear. So is it really worth the 18.5 K USD?