The biggest lie in home audio is...

[sdurani]

You are predominantly listening to your room.

ONLY in the lower frequencies, which radiate like a lantern in every direction, so you're mostly hearing sound reflected by the room. With higher frequencies, which beam like a flashlight, you're mostly listening to direct sound, NOT the room. You should google "Schroeder frequency" before making such sweeping generalizations.

It's all about the speakers. Wrong!

You can easily change room acoustics but you can't do the same with important characteristics of speakers. So they have to be chosen carefully. It really is all about the speakers.

Harman had done a comparison of the same 4 speakers in 5 different rooms. In blind testing, the preference rankings for those speakers stayed the same, despite each room sounding different. Why the consistency? Because of adaptation: i.e., our human hearing lets us "listen through" the room. Again, it's all about the speakers.

Shame that you refer to something factual as the biggest lie in home audio. That kind of misinformation is such a disservice to the community.

 

[Hari Iyer]

I still don't have anything like golden ears, so I have to rely on measurements to see how good (or terrible, in my case) things truly are.

If it sounds good to your ears, who cares how it measures.

 

[prem]

Hari, what is happening to you? I thought you were all for measurements

 

[Hari Iyer]

I am still for the measurements. But i always listen first before measuring to prevent prejudice against my speakers. Moreover i measure a cool 2 to 3 days after i listen. My ears are not very sensitive after 13KHz but the mic is and it helps me to judge the HF better than my ears. Also how my speakers interacts with my room at the low end are better shown by the measurements than by my listening abilities.

What i meant in post # 22, not to bother with measurements if he is already enjoying the music. If he discovers in his measurement a huge dip or say -10dB from 800Hz to 6KHz and a big peak at 7KHz and 10KHz, then that measurement can influence his listening due to psyco-acoustics.

I have also noticed that when you always use the same track to check your speakers, your mind also plays trick. If you are expecting some particular feeble sound in the track, even if the speaker does not produce that sound, your mind shall fill your gap since you were expecting it to be there in the first place. This has been proved in psyco-acoustics. Hence its always better to listen never before heard music and not reference tracks to check your gears IMHO.

At the end - A good listening speakers are any day better than a good measured speaker.

 

[lnxreddy]

The biggest lie in home audio is...I'm all set now, no more gear

I have the best system

 

[sanjivnayak]

As per my understanding most of us are not that affluent to go from the foundation towards the roof.
We ( new entrants) often do mistake by attempting on our own. From roof towards the foundation. How ?
I start with a pair of speakers depending on my budget or someone may think of Amp+Speaker at best. Then check where something has gone wrong about the selection as it sounds too bad or not as expected.
It is then an addition of a DAC. Then a power amplifier. Then the speaker cable, Power cable, Power conditioner and what not. As the time passes on think of changing one by one gear. After all money exhausted, we suddenly think how about my foundation. The room treatment.
By that time we have accumulated so much experience that new entrants read our reviews like research papers.
If the whole story can be narrated in simple terms step by step keeping a budget in mind from foundation upwards then things would have been more or less standardised for others to follow.

 

[tuff]

As per my understanding most of us are not that affluent to go from the foundation towards the roof.
We ( new entrants) often do mistake by attempting on our own. From roof towards the foundation. How ?
I start with a pair of speakers depending on my budget or someone may think of Amp+Speaker at best. Then check where something has gone wrong about the selection as it sounds too bad or not as expected.
It is then an addition of a DAC. Then a power amplifier. Then the speaker cable, Power cable, Power conditioner and what not. As the time passes on think of changing one by one gear. After all money exhausted, we suddenly think how about my foundation. The room treatment.
By that time we have accumulated so much experience that new entrants read our reviews like research papers.
If the whole story can be narrated in simple terms step by step keeping a budget in mind from foundation upwards then things would have been more or less standardised for others to follow.

You left out the source.

 

[Hari Iyer]

[QUOTE="Hari Iyer, post: 763717, member: 8299"
I have also noticed that when you always use the same track to check your speakers, your mind also plays trick. If you are expecting some particular feeble sound in the track, even if the speaker does not produce that sound, your mind shall fill your gap since you were expecting it to be there in the first place. This has been proved in psyco-acoustics. Hence its always better to listen never before heard music and not reference tracks to check your gears IMHO.

[/QUOTE]

To further add to the above point, you can watch the famous Sholay film dialogue by Amjad Khan without the Audio and try to listen to the dialogue in mind as its very famous. As you know the dialgoue in mind, you can notice the mind filling the audio for you automatically. This is what happens when you listen to your reference CD again and again, the mind will fill the gap. Try out this test for yourself and let all know your observation.

 

[sound_cycle]

If the whole story can be narrated in simple terms step by step keeping a budget in mind from foundation upwards then things would have been more or less standardised for others to follow.

That "whole story" is available on here at hfv in multiple threads and elsewhere on the 'net. But did that stop me from bumbling along ?. It is a journey stumbles falls and all up the mountain even though there is a high speed funicular rail to the top.

ciao
gr

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Please suggest a few basic treatments that most should be able to do, that are not visually (too) jarring, doesn't cost too much, and are effective.

Heh. I am not much of a DIY'er. There are other folks on here who are much more qualified to help in that regard.

When I had a soundbar(I know, I'm crazy!), I ended up getting this kit (thanks to @sound_cycle for the recommendation): http://theinventory.in/category/acoustic-treatment_room-kits.html


Not available any more. I believe that I took the last set from their studio room after a few months of pestering them. Included 4 4 ft * 2 ft panels 2 inches thick, 2 4 ft * 2 ft panels 4 inches thick and 2 2 ft * 2 ft panels 2 inches thick. Priced at Rs. 20K, so effectively ~Rs.350/sq.ft. Easily one of the better values for money in the ready-made room treatment market. Very effective for broadband absorption as well.

I also purchased the minidsp NanoAVR DL (at that point, my investment in room correction was more than 50% of the cost of my equipment), after which it became clear that I really, really needed to upgrade on my soundbar.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

What i meant in post # 22, not to bother with measurements if he is already enjoying the music.

It's easy to enjoy virtually anything if you've never heard anything approaching high-fidelity. And, even if one did, what's wrong with finding out just how much better things can get? IMO, for someone starting out, it is nigh on impossible to figure out issues without measurements. Certainly true for me, at any rate.

At the end - A good listening speakers are any day better than a good measured speaker.

Not all great measuring speakers sound great. However, you are also unlikely to find a great sounding speaker that measures poorly.

 

[Hari Iyer]

It's easy to enjoy virtually anything if you've never heard anything approaching high-fidelity. And, even if one did, what's wrong with finding out just how much better things can get? IMO, for someone starting out, it is nigh on impossible to figure out issues without measurements. Certainly true for me, at any rate.



Not all great measuring speakers sound great. However, you are also unlikely to find a great sounding speaker that measures poorly.

Ok, do you measure speakers? If yes, what parametrs do you measure? How do you correlate all the measurements with the subjective counterpart. Curious to know from you.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Ok, do you measure speakers?

Only to the extent of what they do in my room, in and around my LP. It looks like my response was taken to mean that I make near-field measurements to judge the FR of my speakers. If so, my apologies. I am not *that* serious about this, but I do care about optimizing what I have.

Financial and practical considerations matter, of course. REW and Dirac calibrations are my source of information about what's happening in my room.

How do you correlate all the measurements with the subjective counterpart.

In my admittedly very limited experience listening to hi-fi setups, I have only gone 'Wow!' twice.

1. At another forum member's house when he demoed a couple of songs in stereo. I was amazed when I heard a bell tinkle about 4 feet to my right and about 7 feet from the floor. Utterly floored when I got my first taste of high-quality imaging.

2. At a speaker designer's house when he demoed his open-baffle setup with his chosen recording. I felt like the (female) singer was literally 6 ft away from me. Mind-blowingly good. It was also the first time I was able to listen to levels of around 95 db SPL without my ears crying out for relief. Loud and clear. Just the way I like it. Unfortunately for me, my means don't allow me to consider that set-up.

I hope to get to 'Wow!' with my current set-up (bought ears unheard based on numerous subjective reviews!), at least for HT. The expectation is that room treatments and pro calibration will get me there.

 

[newlash09]

As per my understanding most of us are not that affluent to go from the foundation towards the roof.
We ( new entrants) often do mistake by attempting on our own. From roof towards the foundation. How ?
I start with a pair of speakers depending on my budget or someone may think of Amp+Speaker at best. Then check where something has gone wrong about the selection as it sounds too bad or not as expected.
It is then an addition of a DAC. Then a power amplifier. Then the speaker cable, Power cable, Power conditioner and what not. As the time passes on think of changing one by one gear. After all money exhausted, we suddenly think how about my foundation. The room treatment.
By that time we have accumulated so much experience that new entrants read our reviews like research papers.
If the whole story can be narrated in simple terms step by step keeping a budget in mind from foundation upwards then things would have been more or less standardised for others to follow.

Haha...this is very true. After having moved my 2 channel system from a well spaced dining room into a cramped living room. I can say without any measurements that my system sounds like crap. So room treatment is next on my agenda. I've realised probably at the fag end of box swapping, that there is no point spending anymore money on audio, unless I address my room first. In fact iam so embarrassed at how it sounds , that when my guests ask me to play it , I lie that the amp is broken

 

[newlash09]

Only to the extent of what they do in my room, in and around my LP. It looks like my response was taken to mean that I make near-field measurements to judge the FR of my speakers. If so, my apologies. I am not *that* serious about this, but I do care about optimizing what I have.

Financial and practical considerations matter, of course. REW and Dirac calibrations are my source of information about what's happening in my room.



In my admittedly very limited experience listening to hi-fi setups, I have only gone 'Wow!' twice.

1. At another forum member's house when he demoed a couple of songs in stereo. I was amazed when I heard a bell tinkle about 4 feet to my right and about 7 feet from the floor. Utterly floored when I got my first taste of high-quality imaging.

2. At a speaker designer's house when he demoed his open-baffle setup with his chosen recording. I felt like the (female) singer was literally 6 ft away from me. Mind-blowingly good. It was also the first time I was able to listen to levels of around 95 db SPL without my ears crying out for relief. Loud and clear. Just the way I like it. Unfortunately for me, my means don't allow me to consider that set-up.

I hope to get to 'Wow!' with my current set-up (bought ears unheard based on numerous subjective reviews!), at least for HT. The expectation is that room treatments and pro calibration will get me there.

True...i must add that I heard a forum members system with a tube pre amp, a parasound poweramp and B&W speakers. On vocals the singer was in the room I swear. I've never heard such realistic vocals. I'm still smitten. I sometimes wonder if I should sell my system and beg him to let me in more frequently

 

[Kannan]

Only to the extent of what they do in my room, in and around my LP. It looks like my response was taken to mean that I make near-field measurements to judge the FR of my speakers. If so, my apologies. I am not *that* serious about this, but I do care about optimizing what I have.

Financial and practical considerations matter, of course. REW and Dirac calibrations are my source of information about what's happening in my room..

Aha....Chennai vaasi....how about an audition please?

 

[terrible]

I am still for the measurements. But i always listen first before measuring to prevent prejudice against my speakers. Moreover i measure a cool 2 to 3 days after i listen. My ears are not very sensitive after 13KHz but the mic is and it helps me to judge the HF better than my ears. Also how my speakers interacts with my room at the low end are better shown by the measurements than by my listening abilities.

What i meant in post # 22, not to bother with measurements if he is already enjoying the music. If he discovers in his measurement a huge dip or say -10dB from 800Hz to 6KHz and a big peak at 7KHz and 10KHz, then that measurement can influence his listening due to psyco-acoustics.

I have also noticed that when you always use the same track to check your speakers, your mind also plays trick. If you are expecting some particular feeble sound in the track, even if the speaker does not produce that sound, your mind shall fill your gap since you were expecting it to be there in the first place. This has been proved in psyco-acoustics. Hence its always better to listen never before heard music and not reference tracks to check your gears IMHO.

At the end - A good listening speakers are any day better than a good measured speaker.

I so totally agree with what you say. Because I have done this exercise though not using Dirac or the minidsp (which is lying unused), but with an Audyssey mic and the CA CXR200 room correction. I hated the room correction and went back to parameters I had set through listening. Though I have not been long in this pursuit but I do understand that aural changes in us are a constant and hence what we once liked may start to fickle or become shrewd and I would imagine it would become even more expensive, this hobby, if we started reacting to these changes.

 

[Hari Iyer]

IME, the ears get adjusted or accustomed to whatever you listen over a period of time. Even if you had the best speakers / setup in the world, it would last probably for a few months / year after that you may get used to its greatness and will want something different now. That's the property of a sense organ like "Ear" and nothing much can be done about it. I have also noticed that you also get used to the volume levels of your setup. If you are habituated to a particular listening level, then anything above or below that level will not excite you. Hence its always better to start at a lower level of listening if you are new to hifi as you will still have enough headroom.

 

[Ravindra Desai]

IME, the ears get adjusted or accustomed to whatever you listen over a period of time. Even if you had the best speakers / setup in the world, it would last probably for a few months / year after that you may get used to its greatness and will want something different now. That's the property of a sense organ like "Ear" and nothing much can be done about it. I have also noticed that you also get used to the volume levels of your setup. If you are habituated to a particular listening level, then anything above or below that level will not excite you. Hence its always better to start at a lower level of listening if you are new to hifi as you will still have enough headroom.

Just like hotel food.....

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[terrible]

Maybe its time to concentrate on the music at hand.