TS+HD - Nat Geo HD FINALLY with proper sound

[prankey]

Ahhh... FINALLY, perseverance PAID! Finally getting proper 5.1. Check it out. Now no muted Right channel and Vocals narration from Center with mild presence of Vocals from Rear surrounds! I am still monitoring for another 48 hours to confirm TS senior execs if they have finally fixed it for us

Here is what I got them to do - Rear LR to be mapped to Front LR, Front L to Center, Center to Rear Surround (they seemed to have merged Rear LR to Center earlier), Front R was usually mute except for some vocals.

Now I can match the sound to what is on screen and the demo loops play fine instead of playing from Rear LR. If you have boosted rear speakers volume, you may hear narration vocals from rear (primarily rear left) instead of center (like before for those who has more volume on rear speakers).

I still hear Audio JUDDER which clearly is from head end (uplink) as my AVR never looses "DOLBY DIGITAL" stream from the STB (which it should have if there was any issue between STB and AVR). Will give this feedback that is still left (fortunately they have finally taken the ownership to resolve these issues).

Nevertheless, its a blessing to listen to proper 5.1 audio as I always knew Nat Geo HD has almost all programs in 5.1 while Discovery HD World still needs ORIGINAL MONO or STEREO sound to be presented as it is (currently, still Discovery HD World presents some of the programs with MONO or STEREO sound processed to 5.1 with panning to center channel when vocals are heard making background music either get focussed to center or with reduced panned volume - SAME as what we heard in Star Cricket HD during WC Matches).

Enjoy!

 

[sudhishkv]

Is this with HDMI? What is the other settings i have to do to get it?

 

[prankey]

Is this with HDMI? What is the other settings i have to do to get it?

I don't use HDMI - it was a broadcast issue of TS HD (sorry I named it for TS+HD as I am using that STB).

I will check with them if HDMI issue is resolved (they still have not uploaded a newer firmware so most probably its still unresolved).

 

[sanjay0864]

The DD 5.1 audio on 'NG HD' is better than before, but I am sorry to say it is still not totally correct and that there are still issues with it. The audio from the 'center channel' is also being reproduced in the 'Rear Left' channel. The rest of the channels seem to be okay for now.

 

[prankey]

The DD 5.1 audio on 'NG HD' is better than before, but I am sorry to say it is still not totally correct and that there are still issues with it. The audio from the 'center channel' is also being reproduced in the 'Rear Left' channel. The rest of the channels seem to be okay for now.

Yes but its still much better than PSEUDO 5.1 what is heard mostly on Discovery HD (it gets vocals from all speakers before finally getting panned to Center - same as we saw in Star Cricket HD during WC). Discovery HD still bothers me due to this panning sound as it almost completely destroys the background sounds and music when someone is speaking (Dish's 2.0 do not have this effect on Discovery HD, so its most probably TS doing their engineering to create 5.1 effect from mono or stereo).

I just got a call from the CEO contact who has informed that the technical team is still working on these issues and that he will update me further on Monday.

Also, the vocals of narration is heard from rear Left if the volume of rear speakers is bit higher than normal else, center speakers is heard when a narration is going on (like you don't hear the vocals from rear Right which also produce the narration vocals at lesser volume than rear Left).

 

[mailalok]

The DD 5.1 audio on 'NG HD' is better than before, but I am sorry to say it is still not totally correct and that there are still issues with it. The audio from the 'center channel' is also being reproduced in the 'Rear Left' channel. The rest of the channels seem to be okay for now.

+1 Sanjay . NG DD quality realy bad still getting vocal from rear left speaker.

 

[borg]

is there any dth who provides proper 5.1 in all hd channels?

 

[sanjay0864]

is there any dth who provides proper 5.1 in all hd channels?

SunDirect HD

 

[sanjay0864]

Ahhh... FINALLY, perseverance PAID! Finally getting proper 5.1. Check it out. Now no muted Right channel and Vocals narration from Center with mild presence of Vocals from Rear surrounds! I am still monitoring for another 48 hours to confirm TS senior execs if they have finally fixed it for us

Here is what I got them to do - Rear LR to be mapped to Front LR, Front L to Center, Center to Rear Surround (they seemed to have merged Rear LR to Center earlier), Front R was usually mute except for some vocals.

What I am unable to understand is why TataSky or for that matter any DTH operator needs to be doing all this audio jugglery of mapping channels, Why can't they, or more appropriately, don't they simply pass on the original DD bitstream being broadcast by the channel? If they were to simply pass the DD bitstream, then none of the problems that we are facing would be there. Bottom line is that, unfortunately we have a bunch of technically challenged people incharge of technical matters in these companies.

 

[prankey]

What I am unable to understand is why TataSky or for that matter any DTH operator needs to be doing all this audio jugglery of mapping channels, Why can't they, or more appropriately, don't they simply pass on the original DD bitstream being broadcast by the channel? If they were to simply pass the DD bitstream, then none of the problems that we are facing would be there. Bottom line is that, unfortunately we have a bunch of technically challenged people incharge of technical matters in these companies.

ABSOLUTELY!

Unless they receive something from the content providers which can not be broadcasted without conversion, they should NEVER touch even the Video part of it. However it seems that all these DTH providers are doing RECOMPRESSION of BOTH VIDEO AND AUDIO despite them capable of PASSING them through as it is.

That is the reason we keep complaining about quality difference across multiple DTH providers which they may take several years to learn. We do NOT need their expertise in providing better "ENGINEERED" content (like Dish TV upscaling MPEG2 encoded SD channels, TS probably doing their engineering to convert some of the 2.0 content like in Discovery HD and Star Plus to 5.1). We just need the ORIGINAL MPEG2, MPEG4 video and MP2/MP3/AAC/DD5.1 audio to be passed through as it is to get the UNCOMPROMISED and UNADULTERATED channels without such issues.

Also, instead of CRYING for revenue issues and lack of TP space, they should learn to share TPs like those of DD and can save CRORES spent each month for investment and maintenance of their REDUNDANT infrastructure.. They should learn REVENUE SHARING model from local cable operators!

 

[sachinaik]

hmmm.... now I know why discovery DD5.1 sounded lifeless in my setup...

 

[sachinaik]

Also if they simply send the 2.0 channels of discovery as it is then we can convert it to Dolby PL II 5.1 using our AVRs, it will be far way superior than DTH guys junk conversion alogorithm...

 

[prankey]

^ Absolutely! Watching Discovery in Dish HD and TS FAKE 5.1 makes a DAY AND NIGHT DIFFERENCE! In Dish HD, as the original 2.0 sound comes, no fading of background sound (like music, ambient sound) happens. Same phenomenon happened in Star Cricket HD and now MAX HD.

Actually Discovery HD has a mix bag of content. Some in Mono, Stereo and others in true 5.1. What TS is doing is taking out ALL the AUDIO and ENGINEERING it to always process as 5.1 through some TERRIBLE conversion algorithm which do not even match the oldest Dolby ProLogic!

I personally use DTS NEO:6 Music mode for such Mono or Stereo sound coming mostly from the MAIN LR speakers they are originally mastered for and only true Center and Surround sound comes from other speakers. Also, in DTS NEO, there is absolutely no panning of sound/voices which happens for a fraction of second (much lower than TS algorithm).

Point is, other than NAT GEO HD, rest ALL HD channels I have seen are processed this way. In Discovery HD World, even if the content is 5.1 for some of the programming, they still gets processed by the same engine for panning of sound which MAY get mixed to center or surround when the algorithm decides that sound should be routed through those speakers.

I am working with TS Senior Management (right till CEO level) to resolve these issues and stop presenting everything in DD5.1. And its very much obvious during AV dropouts from head end - DD5.1 stream NEVER gets dropped as the connectivity from uplink to our STB remains stable. Also, during the dropout, sound starts coming from original left and right channels when such drops happen. If they were PASSING original Audio, DD5.1 stream would get lost and restored instantaneously.

Such conversion will also reduce the audio fidelity and significantly reduce the background sound making the experience ABSOLUTELY LIFELESS as compared to the original sound and we should all complaint to TS for passing the original PCM/AAC/DD2.0 sound when that is what they get from the broadcaster as otherwise its terrible (MUCH WORSE than upscaling a Video).

 

[askii2]

Such conversion will also reduce the audio fidelity and significantly reduce the background sound making the experience ABSOLUTELY LIFELESS as compared to the original sound and we should all complaint to TS for passing the original PCM/AAC/DD2.0 sound when that is what they get from the broadcaster as otherwise its terrible (MUCH WORSE than upscaling a Video).

Let me say this again - they aren't stupid. There has to be a logical reason for this. The reason I could think of is as follows -
Whether it's Tata Sky or DishTV - their HD boxes do not carry Dolby Labs or DTS logos. This implies that they haven't got a Dolby/DTS firmware license for their STBs. So doing any Dolby or DTS processing inside their STBs isn't allowed. (a52 encoder is still possible I'll come back to that in a moment). Passing through DD/DTS without any transcoding (decoding followed by encoding) should be ok IMO.

Passing DD/DTS through HDMI requires identifying audio stream during HDCP handshake. Which implies requiring a license if DD/DTS streams are to be passed. I guess this is why TS doesn't pass DD through HDMI.

Passing DD through optical/coax should be ok, if no transcoding is done. Or even if transcoding is done, use of a52 encoders will not require a Dolby/DTS license.

A large chunk of 15-25 channels are sent down through a high bandwidth single MPEG2-TS stream. This contains various MPEG2/MPEG4 and audio streams. It should be possible to send a DD stream through this but will require downmixing to Dolby Prologic to be sent through stereo on STB. This isn't possible without a Dolby license unlike a52 encoder as Dolby Prologic is patented. They wouldn't want to use DD streams for downlink. The only alternate to that is develop a proprietary scheme for sending multi-channel audio. A simple scheme would be to send them as multiple mp3 streams, which result in a high compression. LFE doesn't work very well with mp3 and requires artificial bass boost or some similar scheme. Optimal use of mp3 requires matching audio levels (artificially boost or lower it at source).

Since STB software needs to be as simple as possible, they can't program it in such a way that lets a channel have multiple types of audio streams (mono, stereo, Dolby PL, DD, DTS) on a program basis (main program content, each ad....). So it's essential to reprogram mono/stereo/DD received from a channel into a single format, per channel.

 

[prankey]

Let me say this again - they aren't stupid. There has to be a logical reason for this. The reason I could think of is as follows -
Whether it's Tata Sky or DishTV - their HD boxes do not carry Dolby Labs or DTS logos. This implies that they haven't got a Dolby/DTS firmware license for their STBs. So doing any Dolby or DTS processing inside their STBs isn't allowed. (a52 encoder is still possible I'll come back to that in a moment). Passing through DD/DTS without any transcoding (decoding followed by encoding) should be ok IMO.

Passing DD/DTS through HDMI requires identifying audio stream during HDCP handshake. Which implies requiring a license if DD/DTS streams are to be passed. I guess this is why TS doesn't pass DD through HDMI.

Passing DD through optical/coax should be ok, if no transcoding is done. Or even if transcoding is done, use of a52 encoders will not require a Dolby/DTS license.

A large chunk of 15-25 channels are sent down through a high bandwidth single MPEG2-TS stream. This contains various MPEG2/MPEG4 and audio streams. It should be possible to send a DD stream through this but will require downmixing to Dolby Prologic to be sent through stereo on STB. This isn't possible without a Dolby license unlike a52 encoder as Dolby Prologic is patented. They wouldn't want to use DD streams for downlink. The only alternate to that is develop a proprietary scheme for sending multi-channel audio. A simple scheme would be to send them as multiple mp3 streams, which result in a high compression. LFE doesn't work very well with mp3 and requires artificial bass boost or some similar scheme. Optimal use of mp3 requires matching audio levels (artificially boost or lower it at source).

Since STB software needs to be as simple as possible, they can't program it in such a way that lets a channel have multiple types of audio streams (mono, stereo, Dolby PL, DD, DTS) on a program basis (main program content, each ad....). So it's essential to reprogram mono/stereo/DD received from a channel into a single format, per channel.

Amit - I appreciate your technical analysis, however I would have to disagree on most of your ASSUMPTIONS.

Dish HD's SAME Zenega STB's carry Dolby logo disclaimers in the back (after their initial lot). However, its not necessary for any DD/DTS capable device to carry their logo - Like my Yamaha AVR do not have ANY SUCH LOGO! Also, passing through DD/DTS or any other audio bitstream do not require you to get a license. Processing (decoding or encoding) them do.

Also, when I say passing DD bitstream from content provider, I was NOT referring to HDMI output on STBs (HDMI anyway IS DESIGNED and is SUPPOSED to carry virtually ALL audio bitstreams - TS needs to FIX this issue IMMEDIATELY as otherwise ANY ONE OF US can SUE them for promoting the box to be capable of Dolby Digital Plus 7.1).

First of all, virtually all DTH providers like TS or Dish have option of multiple audio streams which could be a mix of AAC/MP2/MP3/DD. I know atleast one person who saw multiple audio feeds in Discovery HD on Dish TV during the 1st week of Feb with one stream being Dolby Digital. Now, even if they are forced to broadcast in DD, they can very well pass the original STEREO or 5.1 without any such EXTREMELY BAD processing to 5.1 (there is no MONO stream coming from broadcaster so we basically have MONO represented in Stereo or DD5.1).

Its not necessary that DD5.1 should carry 5.1 channel sound ONLY, it could carry UPTO 5.1 channels and could be 2.0 as well. Sun Direct is passing the original bitstream in Stereo for MAX HD like in Max SD, why can't Tatasky do so? They were passing bad quality mono bitstream in MAX SD till last night, however now they have good quality MULTIPLE bitstreams in Stereo. Obviously we can't analyse WHY and reason them. Its just they way THEY choose for us to watch those channels and since we don't complaint, they don't bother either!

Instead of speculating things to reason/justify TS instead of asking them like I already did. The senior management at TS THEMSELVES are waiting a revert from their technical teams for which they have NOT provided any reasoning in more than 1 MONTH now like what you are speculating here.

It was based on my STRICT and DIRECT FEEDBACK to TS CEO which has led them to finally fix audio in NAT GEO HD which some of us have been complaining to them since the very beginning. I just had to locate the right email address, send stinker emails to them to get them rolling and NOW the management is still chasing the technical teams to answer my questions!

Gist - just by THINKING/SPECULATING the reasons behind something silly would not change things, ACTING and raising questions to the right people SHOULD.

 

[sanjay0864]

I am working with TS Senior Management (right till CEO level) to resolve these issues and stop presenting everything in DD5.1

All they should be doing is simply passing along the audio (DD bitstream) as originally transmitted by Discovery HD or for that matter any channel. There is absolutely no good reason for TataSky to reprocess the audio.

 

[prankey]

All they should be doing is simply passing along the audio (DD bitstream) as originally transmitted by Discovery HD or for that matter any channel. There is absolutely no good reason for TataSky to reprocess the audio.

Absolutely, and I don't see any reasoning behind them doing such silly processing and sending as Pseudo 5.1. This is actually worse than doing their engineering (like Dish) by upscaling SD.

They can atleast send the ORIGINAL LR STEREO through these DD5.1 streams by leaving other channels (as a WORST CASE SCENARIO).

 

[askii2]

Dish HD's SAME Zenega STB's carry Dolby logo disclaimers in the back (after their initial lot). However, its not necessary for any DD/DTS capable device to carry their logo - Like my Yamaha AVR do not have ANY SUCH LOGO! Also, passing through DD/DTS or any other audio bitstream do not require you to get a license. Processing (decoding or encoding) them do.

This is good info. I was under the impression that Dolby capable devices are required to carry a logo.

HDMI anyway IS DESIGNED and is SUPPOSED to carry virtually ALL audio bitstreams

Yes, though using proprietary signatures requires a license. Optical or coaxial connections on the other hand also can carry variety of audio bitstreams, although there is no handshake and there is no signature (A52 isn't a registered proprietary word), so a license isn't required for DD.

I know atleast one person who saw multiple audio feeds in Discovery HD on Dish TV during the 1st week of Feb with one stream being Dolby Digital. Now, even if they are forced to broadcast in DD, they can very well pass the original STEREO or 5.1 without any such EXTREMELY BAD processing to 5.1 (there is no MONO stream coming from broadcaster so we basically have MONO represented in Stereo or DD5.1).

I did see a DD stream and posted it to this group. DishTV is sending multiple streams even now (TravelXP HD is an excellent example). They have to keep sending them through out the day. Can't change that frequently or else we'll experience hick-ups. Each such stream takes-up a valuable space from their paid satellite bandwidth.

Instead of speculating things to reason/justify TS instead of asking them like I already did. The senior management at TS THEMSELVES are waiting a revert from their technical teams for which they have NOT provided any reasoning in more than 1 MONTH now like what you are speculating here.

Giving feedback to senior people (or even CEO) works only when it's an operations or technical issue - wrong invoices, unpaid refunds, incorrect mixing of audio. It won't work where there is a legacy issue. For legacy issues a much higher level ROI story is required. Note how DishTV changed LNBs for all their HD subscribers. It cost them a significant amount, but they did it because of an ROI story.

I am trying to arrive (through speculation) at a conclusion that DishTV is not likely to be able to fix all these issues related to HD at least in this calendar year; TataSky on the other hand is very likely to hence it makes sense to move to TataSky rather than using a democratic path (however correct the path may be).

 

[prankey]

Yes, though using proprietary signatures requires a license. Optical or coaxial connections on the other hand also can carry variety of audio bitstreams, although there is no handshake and there is no signature (A52 isn't a registered proprietary word), so a license isn't required for DD.

I did see a DD stream and posted it to this group. DishTV is sending multiple streams even now (TravelXP HD is an excellent example). They have to keep sending them through out the day. Can't change that frequently or else we'll experience hick-ups. Each such stream takes-up a valuable space from their paid satellite bandwidth.

I don't think changing DD streams or any for that matter will create hiccup especially if the operator pass them as it is because out STB's are capable of processing all those streams. They just need to be resynced when changed (similar to when we switch between different audio streams).

Most of us here who are able to decode DD5.1 do through some good AVR and hence are more or less audiophiles. So TS doing such processing targeting audiophiles is a VERY BAD IDEA.

Giving feedback to senior people (or even CEO) works only when it's an operations or technical issue - wrong invoices, unpaid refunds, incorrect mixing of audio. It won't work where there is a legacy issue. For legacy issues a much higher level ROI story is required. Note how DishTV changed LNBs for all their HD subscribers. It cost them a significant amount, but they did it because of an ROI story.

Now again we are speculating all those including ROI story. We are only asking TS to pass the original sound unprocessed making their processing equipment or people managing those, redundant. Hence TS should not have INVESTED in those equipment in the first place and now also, they might be able to return them based on our recommendation. So their ROI should get significantly reduced after taking our feedback.

Again, key is - ask the operator and let them answer instead of us speculating.

I am trying to arrive (through speculation) at a conclusion that DishTV is not likely to be able to fix all these issues related to HD at least in this calendar year; TataSky on the other hand is very likely to hence it makes sense to move to TataSky rather than using a democratic path (however correct the path may be).

My understanding is - Dish TV has ample available bandwidth and other than those upscaled channels (which they CAN send as regular SD in MPEG4 or any original bitstream), Audio distortion issue and intermittent corruption of bitstream should not take them SO LONG to fix. Its just as simple as disable equalization and reducing volume of those channels. Why should it take them years to figure and fix it?

On the other hand TS is resource constrained (TP space). They will have to delete channels to make way for others or to improve other channels's quality (especially audio on SD channels and video on HD channels). Difference in quality of the HD channels between Dish and TS is much beyond the difference you see between HD ready and Full HD TVs (which most of us are happy about in TS). HD channels on Dish TV have far superior PQ in motion and complex scenes where TS gets heavily pixellated. I wont be surprised to know if Dish TV is passing original Video without recompression because of which we see virtually uncompromised PQ on these HD channels.

 

[kumararvind]

@ prankey....I noticed the dialogue coming from the rear left speaker and the centre speaker yesterday in some wildlife program on NGC HD Yesterday......so all is not yet fixed.