Updating speakers? Does it really make a difference?

[ganeshbeee]

Hi guys,

I have a very basic question. I have a home theater (Denon 1312xp). The AVR comes as a package with Denon provided speaker. From the tech specs of the AVR I read that it supports 110W RMS per channel@6ohms. The Denon speakers provided is already 100W@6ohms.

I see lotta people changing or upgrading the speakers (superior speakers like Polk etc or installing tower speakers).

Now my question is, my AMP is already provided with the max RMS it supports (110W@6ohms), so even if I upgrade to say a tower speaker, I will have to match my amp power which obviously will be around 110RMS@6ohms.

Will this really bring a difference in terms of audio quality? Coz, irrespective of the speaker size, type (tower or satellite etc), I thought 2 different speakers with same RMS and impedance would more or less provide the same output.

Am i missing out on something?

 

[pupupuchi28]

The size of the drivers do make a difference to the sound reproduction.

Towers are better for wide range of sound reproduction, since they have 'appropriate' driver size for different frequency bands. 6"-10" woofer, 3.5"-5.5" for mid range and a tweeter, in a 3 way speaker system. Even a 2 way speaker system having two woofers and a tweeter would be tuned to produce 'strong bass' from one woofer and 'strong mid range' from another. If the tower is a two way speaker system with a woofer and a tweeter, then the woofer (mostly) would be big enough to produce the lows very well. In short dedicated drivers for each frequency bands.

Budget bookshelfs (BS) typically have a good mid range driver and a tweeter. Some mid priced BS have good woofers (also act as mid driver) and tweeters. But since they are bookshelves and have to be smaller in size, compared to towers, their drivers are smaller. This mostly leads to 'incomplete' sound reproduction of low frequencies. In Layman's terms, kick drum would sound 'dug' instead of 'dhug' or side drums would sound 'dum' instead of 'Dhum' Therefore mostly book shelves are accompanied by Subs. There are some expensive BS which may well produce these low frequencies but they are expensive.

Satelites have mid range and a tweeter, irrespective of the price of speakers. Their low frequency is sourced from the accompanied sub.

Since yours is a packaged version with satellites, therefore if you shift to tower speakers (or good BS), then the sound reproduction would be good compared to your current set-up. However you may want to check with a technical person, if it would harm the AVR, since you will be driving a bigger driver. Most of the times these packages are meant to drive the satellites they are accompanied with. Changing your satellites for cheap bookshelves would be not reap any better sound quality.

 

[saj2001ind]

I too have a denon 1312XP, I am fine with front and rear but wanted to know if I need to buy a good center channel speaker to really give extra oopmh in the dialogue and TV programmes ?

can any one suggest any good option as a replacement for center channel for 1312 pls ?

how is polk RM 8 ?

 

[pupupuchi28]

Hi Saj2001ind - You can certainly connect a better centre channel to your current set-up provided the specifications are same, but since the sound during a movie flows through diferent channels, it will sound off if you change only the centre channel speakers. Certainly, the speach would improve but at the cost of inconsistent flow of sound and quality of sound across all the channels. Rather you can get bookshelfs for front right, left and a good quality centre. While even this would have some inconsistency because the surround channels would throw a sound of different quality, but for most part of a typical movie the sound travels across the front channels. So you can live with it without much botheration.

Hope that heps. A good way to test this is to audition such a set-up.

 

[saj2001ind]

Hi Saj2001ind - You can certainly connect a better centre channel to your current set-up provided the specifications are same, but since the sound during a movie flows through diferent channels, it will sound off if you change only the centre channel speakers. Certainly, the speach would improve but at the cost of inconsistent flow of sound and quality of sound across all the channels. Rather you can get bookshelfs for front right, left and a good quality centre. While even this would have some inconsistency because the surround channels would throw a sound of different quality, but for most part of a typical movie the sound travels across the front channels. So you can live with it without much botheration.

Hope that heps. A good way to test this is to audition such a set-up.

thanks, I realised that, can you suggest any good center and bookshelf for denon AVR 1312 pls

 

[pupupuchi28]

What is your budget? There are good ones from Wharfedale 10.0, 9.0 (you can very well use them for your stereo music as well) and Morduant Short Carnival series. Since you plan to use these with the current amp, therefore I assume that you would not want to spend hefty on speakers, while your amp is just entry level. Dont get me wrong, even I use an entry level amp but the point is, there is no benifit to put expensive speakers on an entry level amp. I have not auditioned too many Polk surround speakers, so can't comment.

 

[jaudere]

As far as safety of AVR Is concerned, one can connect any speaker of any wattage provided that the speaker impedance is 6 ohm to 8 ohm. Below 6 ohm, the Avr may get hot. Above 8 ohm, avr will be safe but sound output will be quite low. One has to keep in mind that if a very low wattage speaker(as compared to the amp wattage) is connected, the speaker will blow if the volume is turned high.

Quality of sound does not depend on wattage. It depends on quality of speaker drivers used, selecting matching speakers, the crossover components, the quality of cabinet(material as well as tuning with proper size) etc. So regardless of wattage, better speaker will give better sound.

As far as loudness goes, you will never require 100w rms power in regular home settings. For music, my 20w rms/ch stereo amp goes unbearably loud at half volume. For movies may be 40w/ch will be required. This also depends on sensitivity of speakers. What I am saying is applicable to a room smaller than 16X12 feet (and for persons with normal hearing. )

 

[prankey]

As far as safety of AVR Is concerned, one can connect any speaker of any wattage provided that the speaker impedance is 6 ohm to 8 ohm. Below 6 ohm, the Avr may get hot. Above 8 ohm, avr will be safe but sound output will be quite low. One has to keep in mind that if a very low wattage speaker(as compared to the amp wattage) is connected, the speaker will blow if the volume is turned high.

Quality of sound does not depend on wattage. It depends on quality of speaker drivers used, selecting matching speakers, the crossover components, the quality of cabinet(material as well as tuning with proper size) etc. So regardless of wattage, better speaker will give better sound.

As far as loudness goes, you will never require 100w rms power in regular home settings. For music, my 20w rms/ch stereo amp goes unbearably loud at half volume. For movies may be 40w/ch will be required. This also depends on sensitivity of speakers. What I am saying is applicable to a room smaller than 16X12 feet (and for persons with normal hearing. )

I completely agree with you! For a decent room setup my 65 to 90 Watts per channel AVR is way too loud to drive my towers.

While sound quality matters most, towers are best suited for that. Remember - any good branded tower will significantly surpass the quality and power output (sensitivity per watts is what you need to see when talking of power output!). Even Bose Lifestyle series with AM wouldnt stand a chance in front of good tower speakers.

So when talking of power output, sensitivity per watt is what you have to look for and not just the raw available power. And sound quality of almost any tower speaker is much superior (especially in terms of richness of low and mid range sounds) and they usually are far more sensitive to these tiny speakers (they may be 2 to 4 times louder at the same power level than the satellites!). Just need to match the impedance to avoiding overheating the AVR and introducing more distortion.

 

[mpw]

Fresh out of the Mumbai HFV, i can suggest you to go for a DNM stereo amp and DNM BS or any tower you may like, The front load will he taken by the stereo amp and will not be reflected on the AVR. But for this your AVR must have front pre outs... thats the kind of set up i have now. So you can get the best of both.. stereo and movies..

The stereo amp should be about 15k ( DNM )


regards,
mpw

 

[pupupuchi28]

You mean DNM stereo for 15K ??? What??? Why wouldn't anyone go for Norge (in the lower priced segment, but certainly better in quality) or Marantz (18K) stereo amps instead of DNM (at 15K) for which you will not find more than 15 reviews on the net.

BTW I was quoted 16K for the 5.1 channel DNM amp, by their distributor. This also has a 125w output for a passive amp.

 

[saj2001ind]

As far as safety of AVR Is concerned, one can connect any speaker of any wattage provided that the speaker impedance is 6 ohm to 8 ohm. Below 6 ohm, the Avr may get hot. Above 8 ohm, avr will be safe but sound output will be quite low. One has to keep in mind that if a very low wattage speaker(as compared to the amp wattage) is connected, the speaker will blow if the volume is turned high.

Quality of sound does not depend on wattage. It depends on quality of speaker drivers used, selecting matching speakers, the crossover components, the quality of cabinet(material as well as tuning with proper size) etc. So regardless of wattage, better speaker will give better sound.

As far as loudness goes, you will never require 100w rms power in regular home settings. For music, my 20w rms/ch stereo amp goes unbearably loud at half volume. For movies may be 40w/ch will be required. This also depends on sensitivity of speakers. What I am saying is applicable to a room smaller than 16X12 feet (and for persons with normal hearing. )

thankyou and thanks all for prompt response, I am new to this forum but very happy to see many active users helping new guy like me

so any one can plssss suggest some good speakers 5.1 set for my denon 1312...I also listen to music along with movies, well movies a lot

 

[Krish82]

I completely agree with you! For a decent room setup my 65 to 90 Watts per channel AVR is way too loud to drive my towers.

While sound quality matters most, towers are best suited for that. Remember - any good branded tower will significantly surpass the quality and power output (sensitivity per watts is what you need to see when talking of power output!). Even Bose Lifestyle series with AM wouldnt stand a chance in front of good tower speakers.

So when talking of power output, sensitivity per watt is what you have to look for and not just the raw available power. And sound quality of almost any tower speaker is much superior (especially in terms of richness of low and mid range sounds) and they usually are far more sensitive to these tiny speakers (they may be 2 to 4 times louder at the same power level than the satellites!). Just need to match the impedance to avoiding overheating the AVR and introducing more distortion.

See higher wattage does not seem high volumes, to double the volume you need to go 10 times the wattage, so a 1000 watts amp will be having double the volume of 100 watts amp.

Also there is a volume level when the speakers open up and plays all frequencies at its best, this is achieved when we power the speakers with a good quality amplifier with higher wattage. My Polk Rti A5 speakers has rating of 20watts RMS to 250 Watts RMS, 20 watts is the bare minimum power i can give to the speakers, it does not mean i am getting the best from the speakers when i feed it 20 watts.

so my point is even if you upgrade the speakers now, one day or the other you have to upgrade the receiver too and this process will continue. So if you want to build a decent quality system try to go for Towers, save some money and buy later rather than buying some bookshelves and not being happy with it unless you really buy some good brands.

 

[pupupuchi28]

"so any one can plssss suggest some good speakers 5.1"
You plan to replace all the speakers along with the sub? Note, even if you go for 2 BS (Rs 12K wharfedale), a decent centre (Rs 8K Wharfedale), surround (Rs 9K,bipole, Wharfedale, Morduant Short Carnival) and new sub (Rs 15K Polk or yamaha), it would be atleast 42K, to feel the difference compared to your current set-up. Are you sure you are game for this?

My take... buy two reasonbly good BS (approx 15K), keep the current sub (typically HTIB comes with a good sub for movie, I assume yours would suffice), a set of bipole surround (morduant / wharfedale approx Rs 9K) and a good Centre for Rs 12K. You will save something from sub, part of which you can invest in the cables and ICs (unlike lots of criticism on internet regarding cables and its benifit to the sound quality, I have experienced differences in SQ as a result of better cables and interconnects). Since you are a movie freek, most of the times the sound will be either in the centre or all channels. Towers will remain unutilised. Also I'm not sure if your AVR has the option to divert part of the signal from centre to front mains, else you could divert part of the signal to the towers and assign the speach section to the centre channel.. If not, no point taking a tower. Your sub will take care of the low frequencies of movies. Music may not be very great in this set-up.

Human wants are insatiable! and the most dangerous disease of current days is Audioholic

 

[saj2001ind]

"so any one can plssss suggest some good speakers 5.1"
You plan to replace all the speakers along with the sub? Note, even if you go for 2 BS (Rs 12K wharfedale), a decent centre (Rs 8K Wharfedale), surround (Rs 9K,bipole, Wharfedale, Morduant Short Carnival) and new sub (Rs 15K Polk or yamaha), it would be atleast 42K, to feel the difference compared to your current set-up. Are you sure you are game for this?

My take... buy two reasonbly good BS (approx 15K), keep the current sub (typically HTIB comes with a good sub for movie, I assume yours would suffice), a set of bipole surround (morduant / wharfedale approx Rs 9K) and a good Centre for Rs 12K. You will save something from sub, part of which you can invest in the cables and ICs (unlike lots of criticism on internet regarding cables and its benifit to the sound quality, I have experienced differences in SQ as a result of better cables and interconnects). Since you are a movie freek, most of the times the sound will be either in the centre or all channels. Towers will remain unutilised. Also I'm not sure if your AVR has the option to divert part of the signal from centre to front mains, else you could divert part of the signal to the towers and assign the speach section to the centre channel.. If not, no point taking a tower. Your sub will take care of the low frequencies of movies. Music may not be very great in this set-up.

Human wants are insatiable! and the most dangerous disease of current days is Audioholic

thanks yeah I do agree, we can never be satisfied but your suggestions are gr8,

Can you pls give me the exact model nos of ur suggestions (I am new to these stuffs ), wharfedale specially , and any online store to get them pls ?

 

[pupupuchi28]

Certainly the speakers will also serve for music, but the quality would not compare against a floor stand. Mid range BS are comparable to entry level floor stands but remember that with BS you would also need the stands, which are definately not cheap.

Search the thread, I guess I saw few specific audio video shops in Pune, being discussed by members. I cant digest that Pune does not have a high end audio/video shop.

Thumb rule:
- Impedence of speakers should be equal to amp. Or higher but performance will decrease.
- Wattage of speaker should be closer (or slightly higher) to the amps power, this is assuming you take a speaker with average sensitivity (approx 86 to 89 db). If you go for higher sensitive speakers then you can relax these factors to some extent.
- If possible take along ur AVR for audition.

I REPEAT, DO NOT BUY A SPEAKER WITHOUT HEARING IT, you may end up spending host of money and yet not satisfied.

 

[saj2001ind]

Certainly the speakers will also serve for music, but the quality would not compare against a floor stand. Mid range BS are comparable to entry level floor stands but remember that with BS you would also need the stands, which are definately not cheap.

Search the thread, I guess I saw few specific audio video shops in Pune, being discussed by members. I cant digest that Pune does not have a high end audio/video shop.

Thumb rule:
- Impedence of speakers should be equal to amp. Or higher but performance will decrease.
- Wattage of speaker should be closer (or slightly higher) to the amps power, this is assuming you take a speaker with average sensitivity (approx 86 to 89 db). If you go for higher sensitive speakers then you can relax these factors to some extent.
- If possible take along ur AVR for audition.

I REPEAT, DO NOT BUY A SPEAKER WITHOUT HEARING IT, you may end up spending host of money and yet not satisfied.

thanks buddy I have noted ur advice

Pune does have some shops but they make a lots of fuss for auditions etc anyways will see if I can make a audition and be more satisfied before spending money.

on a different note, what do you say about Bose 5.1 speakers like 301 series ? they are too costly but are they worth, any suggestions

 

[pupupuchi28]

Bose ...no clue. The forum members are not very pro-bose. Search the forum for reviews.

 

[prankey]

thanks buddy I have noted ur advice

Pune does have some shops but they make a lots of fuss for auditions etc anyways will see if I can make a audition and be more satisfied before spending money.

on a different note, what do you say about Bose 5.1 speakers like 301 series ? they are too costly but are they worth, any suggestions

Not at all! Any decent floor stander for more than 10k will beat these "lifestyle" series hands down. They are good if you compare with atleast a 10 times cheaper satellite speakers. Saying more will be a complete waste of time!

 

[saj2001ind]

Certainly the speakers will also serve for music, but the quality would not compare against a floor stand. Mid range BS are comparable to entry level floor stands but remember that with BS you would also need the stands, which are definately not cheap.

Search the thread, I guess I saw few specific audio video shops in Pune, being discussed by members. I cant digest that Pune does not have a high end audio/video shop.

Thumb rule:
- Impedence of speakers should be equal to amp. Or higher but performance will decrease.
- Wattage of speaker should be closer (or slightly higher) to the amps power, this is assuming you take a speaker with average sensitivity (approx 86 to 89 db). If you go for higher sensitive speakers then you can relax these factors to some extent.
- If possible take along ur AVR for audition.

I REPEAT, DO NOT BUY A SPEAKER WITHOUT HEARING IT, you may end up spending host of money and yet not satisfied.

Hi Buddy

I had auditioned MS Alumini series and they sound quite good...and I am getting MS Alumni 2 + MS Alumni 5 + WF DFS 9 - Rs. 30,000.00 with Free Shipping ... I am planning to keep my 1312xp subwoofer and get these, will it be good choice..I dont want bulky ones

 

[pupupuchi28]

While the choice is good, however you could have gone all WF speakers as well. They are more powerful (in Watts) and responsive (low frequencies) when compared to the Alumni series. Also the driver size is bigger. Surely if the sound quality impressed you, its upto you.

WF 9.1 (11K) + WF Atlantic (10k) + WF DFS (9k).

Anyway now you should get the real taste of your set-up.