Ustad Ali Akbar Khan Passes Away

Hi Asit, it must be really sad for you, now that he is no more.
You have so many personal memories, other than being his fan...

When you listen to his music now you do feel a little lost at times?

The best thing about these great artists is that they remain immortal through their work!
 
Hi Reju,

As I have posted earlier in the thread I did not have any personal interaction with him although I had a few opportunities, yet his passing away seems like a personal loss. But you are right, whenever I am listening to his playing now, nothing other than a feeling of bliss prevails.

Regards.
 
Hi guys,

I want to listen to some classical hindustani, please suggest where I should start...

Like ABC of hindustani, which raagas, sung by whom?

(I'm a north Indian Punjabi, 21, Weezer fan if that helps my prove my ignorance...)
 
Shaklebolt-easiest & , to my mind the best way to get to know this( & some other) genres is to get yourself a Worldspace receiver.
They have a dedicaed channel for Hindustani classical music & have an excellent collection which they beam around the clock.
 
Hi,
From the past 6 months without hindustani music i cannot go out or sleep in the night, atleast 30 min of music is a must. After listening to Ustad Bismillah Khan, Ustad Ali Akhbar Khan, Ustad Rashid Khan, Parveen Sultana etc I dont liken to any other music at all.
 
From the past 6 months without hindustani music i cannot go out or sleep in the night, atleast 30 min of music is a must. After listening to Ustad Bismillah Khan, Ustad Ali Akhbar Khan, Ustad Rashid Khan, Parveen Sultana etc I dont liken to any other music at all.

This is called addiction !!! :) But fortunately of the good kind.

Cheers
 
Hi,
From the past 6 months without hindustani music i cannot go out or sleep in the night, atleast 30 min of music is a must. After listening to Ustad Bismillah Khan, Ustad Ali Akhbar Khan, Ustad Rashid Khan, Parveen Sultana etc I dont liken to any other music at all.




Good for you Nanda..............BTW i too listen to music , mostly classical atleast an hour before going to bed. Bought few CDs of Ustad Ali Akbar Khan and wow , even though he is not with us his music will be there till the end of the world.
 
Hi,
From the past 6 months without hindustani music i cannot go out or sleep in the night, atleast 30 min of music is a must. After listening to Ustad Bismillah Khan, Ustad Ali Akhbar Khan, Ustad Rashid Khan, Parveen Sultana etc I dont liken to any other music at all.

Thats Indian Classical............:thumbsup:
 
Thanks Vortex, for the information on the CD.

On the point of inventing ragas, I am convinced that ragas are more discovered than invented. You could almost say that just like the fundamental physical laws of nature, the basically pleasing combinations of notes are a property of mother nature. One just discovers it when one digs deep. Would you say somebody one fine morning invented a folk tune? No, they are products of nature. Our ragas are more sophisticated, cultured and refined versions of them, in a way, and conveys more than one emotions ('Rasa') and that's how usually richer than folk music.

When one masters many many of these ragas (a couple of hundred, perhaps), only then one can dig deeper to the level that one discovers new structures that have been hitherto unknown to one. Even Miyan Tansen has discovered perhaps not more than a handful of ragas only: Shudh Todi (also known as Miyan Ki Todi), Miyan Ki Malhar and Darbari Kanhra come immediately to mind; Baba Allauddin Khan discovered the evening raga Hem-Bihag and a few others, Pandit Ravishankar discovered his Eshwaree group (Parameshwari, Jogeshwari, Kameshwari) etc and Ustad Ali Akbar a few like Chndranandan, Medhavi etc., to name a few of their discoveries.

While it shows the urge of a creative mind, the more important thing perhaps is to be able to understand the nature of a raga to the extent that its exposition takes place in a flawless yet completely spontaneous manner. Ragas are like people, one should not have any confusion in recognizing and distingushing one from the other. The listener does not have to ponder over the matter whether it's raga Puriya or the raga Marwa that is being performed on the stage. It's basically like being able to distinguish between two popular film music tunes.

All the greats have that quality. Just day before yesterday I had Ali Akbar playing raga Bageshree Kanhra on the cassette. Within the first few strokes I knew it was not the current form of Bageshree, neither it was Sahana (a close rag, in the Kanhra group), it was undoubtedly Bageshree Kanhra. However, the music was flowing naturally, without any apparent structure, but deep inside there is a structure, we know. It's just like the Sun rising in the East and finally setting in the West. Do we think of a law of Physics, giving the planetary positions precisely? No, we call it a natural phenomenon.

This (raga exposition) is really what distinguishes ordinary and good artistes from greats. Just a personal opinion. Just that I have spent a lifetime learning and worrying about these things, it gives me some satisfaction to share my thoughts with you, if anybody cares at all.

Ali Akbar was truely great, easily recognizable even among the greats.

Asit, with due respect to your post, I would still like to consider the act of bringing new ragas to the world as an invention rather than a discovery. On the face of it, considering that the building blocks, the swaras are constant and available already it is very tempting to call new ragas a discovery.

But then look at the invention of pencillin or any other drug for that matter. It is just a mixture of things already existing in this world. Nevertheless the people who invented these were special - they had the ability to look beyond the discrete ingredients and see a composite special and harmonic whole. And that to me is irreplaceable.
 
Vortex,
As I said in my post, it was just a personal opinion. You obviously do not agree with it. Actually these are not things that can and should be discussed casually in a forum like this. Perhaps it was my mistake to bring such issues up.

On the face of it, considering that the building blocks, the swaras are constant and available already it is very tempting to call new ragas a discovery.

Now about your statement above, I have serious problems though. How do you know there are a given set of constant swaras? Our music would be completely dead if we assumed that. For example, the ragas Todi (Shubhapanthubarali in Karnatic), Shree and Marwa all have the note komal (flat) rishav. But the positions (frequencies) of all these komal rishav's are different, it's the most flat for Marwa and most sharp (still komal rishav) for Shree. The frequencies of these notes are determined from context ( that is how you arrive at these notes from other notes) and I cannot explain that in a forum like this. But musicians can feel it when they play or sing in the proper way. These are the reasons, we cannot really express our music in a written form in notations, and the guru-shishya parampara through listening is in vogue.

Please do not take it otherwise. I do not want to discuss these casually and do not intend posting on similar stuff any more.

The only reason I wrote about new ragas in response to your post was that according to my information and understanding, Ali Akbar's own view on finding new ragas was very similar to what I have tried to describe in my earlier post. But I agree it was not very clear, and I do not know how to make it more clear to a general audience.

But Vortex, no matter whether we call it invention or discovery, it's actually immaterial when we feel the upliftment from the music, it does not matter any more by what name we call them, Todi, or Shubhapanthubarali, or even some other new name. Does it?
 
Asit, with due respect to your post, I would still like to consider the act of bringing new ragas to the world as an invention rather than a discovery. On the face of it, considering that the building blocks, the swaras are constant and available already it is very tempting to call new ragas a discovery.

But then look at the invention of pencillin or any other drug for that matter. It is just a mixture of things already existing in this world. Nevertheless the people who invented these were special - they had the ability to look beyond the discrete ingredients and see a composite special and harmonic whole. And that to me is irreplaceable.

I disagree.

Ragaas are the product of careful study of the numerical ratios between musical intervals, the emotions they arouse and their impact on human consciousness. The notes and their intervals exist in nature (as states of excitation or vibrations at the atomic crystalline level?). Indians have traditionally been intimately familiar with the relationship between numbers (being pioneers of mathematics since pre-vedic times), and considered mathematical discoveries as expressions of divinity (Shaivism and Samkhya philosophy) and sought to express them through visual arts and sound. An example of a very early form of such expression is psalmody - the reciting of mantras, where melodic content is inseparable from the verse. The expression of these spoken verses by the bards in melodic form, was considered critical to communicating the hidden meaning that lay in these verses.

You will be interested to know that contemplation of numerical relationships and geometry are the root of many Indian art forms - Yantra diagrams, Indian temple architecture, and the code of proportions in Indian sculpture to name a few. The ancient Hindu grammarians and semanticists like Nandikeshvara and Bhartrihari described spoken language and its articulation based on a mathematical understanding of sound. Even Indian classical dance has a grammer and mathematics in the expression of "layas" as this recent article indicates (A Bharatanatyam performer par excellence). This long history of contemplating numbers and their relationships along with inward oriented exploration of spirituality and expression of their divinity through sound, has resulted in Indians developing one of the most sophisticated and complex understanding of musical intervals, their impact on human consciousness, and of taala - the rythmic structures possible, within the classical Indian Carnatic tradition.

Why Carnatic? Possibly because the original Samkhya philosophy got synthesised, distorted and contaminated with the onset of Vedism in the North and the south Indians are the inheritors of the original Shaivite beleifs and philosophy. According to the original Samkhya philosophy ( very roughly and in my own words) - "conciousness" pervades all matter and the nature of universe can be perceived using the five senses (not limited to intellect) by perceiving the relationships between numerical ratios that govern creation and existence of everything around. The Samkhya philosophy that brought forth many of these discoveries (incl. atomic theory, gravitation) is not Vedic but predates it. In short, expressions of numerical ratios, maths and geometry are inseparable from Indian art forms and pervade our understanding of everything, and all our arts are rooted in the expression of this original philosophy . When a Carnatic percussionist plays various permutations, combinations and patterns of taala so precisely with a Mridangam or Kanjira - he is expressing our cultural understanding of mathematics and numerical ratios and their inter-relationships, and in the process celebrating our awareness of their pervasive manifestation in the universe. And the listener is actually perceiving these numerical relationships through his senses other than intellectually. It is kind of like celebrating the existence of mathematics that governs the universe with our senses. You will recall that music is considered a spiritual quest in our civilization unlike in the west. It is for this reason.

Today if we have a vast library of melodic modes to draw upon to evoke various moods - be it SindhuBhairavi or Mohana or Kalyani it is due to the intellectual activity of classification not invention - of the discoveries about the way these musical intervals affect our emotions and impact the consciousness. The same way as Ayurveda named and classified the effects of countless variety of plants and herbs on physical and mental health a few 1000 years before the western world "invented" Botany and attributed it to their civilization. Western musical scales (major minor and dorian) are very rudimentary by contrast. One is likely to hear more sophisticated rhythmic and melodic improvisation in a single Raaga of 20 mins or even light classical Carnatic pieces than in the typical Jazz album of 60 mins. During a performance, an Indian classical musician is always improvising and thus re-inventing over and over the way he can express these pre-discovered relationships ( melodic modes or raagas). Hindustani is more recent and I believe is derived from our understanding embedded within Carnatic music theory and rests on it as a foundation.

On that note a mention of the accomplishments of Samkhya tradition will be incomplete without a tribute to the Jainas who also made great discoveries in mathematics. Jainism is also as old as the Shaivite tradition, predates vedic times and also considered mathematics as one of their sacred religious teachings.

Hope this helps put some perspective.
Regards
 
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I must say I am deeply disturbed by the above post. I kept quiet all these days, because, as I said earlier, I did not want to discuss very serious and technical musical stuff here in this forum and also do not want to offend anybody. I also hope that the soul of Ali Akbar Khan forgives me for raising these issues again in a thread related to him.

However, the fact remains that I do not agree with the general message contained in gobble's post, although I agree with certain things there.

It is mentioned that very early in the Indian philosophy the 'numerical ratios of musical intervals' were appreciated. In this context, you have also mentioned Western music has only very simple relationships like major and minor etc.

Now I like to ask you, do you know what these ratios are? Can you tell us the frequency ratios of all the notes used in the ragas you have mentioned in the post (Sindhu Bharavi, Mohana, and Kalyani)? Or, have you seen these ratios mentioned in any text?

I can give you the answer: a resounding NO. But I'll try to give you some these ratios as much as possible within the limited scopes of this forum.

The most basic ratio is 2:1 (called the Octave or Saptaka) in any music anywhere in the world. The combination of notes related by octave relationship is a pleasing one, because the even harmonics of a freq f, i.e., 2f, 4f, 6f etc, are the same as all the harmonics of the note 2f, i.e., 2f, 4f, 6f etc.

Similarly the ratio 3:2 is also a pleasing combination. In Western world this called a Consonance relation, we call it Samvada. The reason in terms of harmonics is the same. Next comes the ratio 4:3, but it comes from a combination of the Octave (2:1) and the Consonance (3:2), because the higher octave of a freq f, ie, 2f has a frequency 4/3 times the frequency of the consonant to f, ie, 3/2f.

Similarly come the ratios 5:4 and 6:5, respectively the major and minor thirds.

Now, I shall show you how one obtains the notes of the Raga Mohana, mentioned by you, because it's the easiest. The other ragas are more complicated, and hence it would be difficult for me to explain within a limited space.

Step 1: Tune the 4-string tanpura in the traditional way, ie, the first string to Pancham (P), the next two to higher octave Sadja (S) and the last one to lower octave Sadja (S). Remember if the lower octave S has frequency f, it automatically fixes the freqs. of the higher octave S at 2f and the P at 3/2f.

Step 2: By the major third (5:4) relationship, the freq of Gandhar (G) is fixed at 5/4f. Note that this also makes a minor third relationship of the G (5/4f) to P (3/2f) because 3/2:5/4 = 6/5.

Step 3: Now get a new note (in this case the Dhaivata, D) by using the consonance relationship with the Gandhara (G) so that the G becomes 3/2 times the freq of the D. Obviously that D belongs to the Octave lower than S at freq f, it has the freq = (2/3)xfreq of G = (2/3)x5/4f = 5/6f. To get the the freq of D in the middle Octave, we just need to multiply that by 2. So the freq of D is 5/3f. Note that D-S-G forms a minor traid and S-G-P forms a major triad and the notes S-G are interspersed in both the triads or Khanda-merus. The whole combination D-S-G-P has been called the Meru or Matrika in certain literature.

Step 4: There is a 5th note in Raga Mohana. In general, there are two ways to get the freq of that 5th note: (a) Choose it so that D becomes the consonant note (ratio 3:2) to this one (would be called Rishava, R) so that the freq of R = (2/3)x(5/6f) = 10/9 f; (b) Choose it so that it is consonant with the Panchama P (it will then be higher than 2f and would belong to the octave higher than upper S). Dividing by 2 to bring the freq to the middle octave, one gets the freq of R = (1/2) x (3/2) x (3/2)f = 9/8 f. So we get two different frequencies of the note R, depending on from which context we arrive at the note.

So finally we have the frequencies of all the notes in Raga Mohana (or its variation, by using the method (b) above). The variation (a) is called in the North Indian lingo the Raga Bhupali or simply Bhoop, and the variation (b) is called Raga Shuddha Kalyan (Mohana Kalyani in Karnatic, I think) although Shuddha Kalyan uses two other notes (called Shuddha Nishad and Teevra Madhyam) peripherally and only while sliding (called Meend) in the Avarahi (descending) pattern. I can discuss also how these two extra notes help enhance the freq (9/8 f) of that particular R, but this is not the place.

So, you see how the Raga scales are selected by nature, by a few basic ratios (Octave, Consonance, Major and Minor thirds) and the rest of the notes are defined using these basic relationships from a given context. If the context is different, you can arrive at slightly different frequencies of the so-called same note, as exemplified above in the case of the note R. So the context also defines which note should follow which one, quite naturally. This takes years of practice, but when a classical musician performs a particular Raga, he or she is improvising, but not randomly, but according to the natural selection of frequencies for a given raga and he or she is arriving at a given note from a previous note with a particular inherent relationship between notes. All this happens quite naturally and spontaneously, obviously after years of practice.

The above should also explain why a lot of folk music around the world is based on Mohana (or Bhupali or Bhoop) or 4 other Ragas obtained from translating the scale of Mohana (ie. making R the fundamental, then making G the fundamental and so on). This method of translation is called the "Murchhana". In the North Indian nomenclature, the other 4 Ragas are respectively called: Madhyamadi Sarang (called Madhyamavati in Karnatic), Malkauns (Hindolam in Karnatic), Durga (Suddhasaveri in Karnatic) and Dhani (I do not know of any Karnatic equivalent, I am sure there is one). I call it a natural selection because it seems nature and our brains prefer a complete consonance and tend to look for the fundamental frequency f in all other notes or their harmonics. That's why in the North Indian voice training tradition, Gurus always give a special emphasis on staying at the fundamental note (S), because without it no other notes are defined and the melody will never be created.

After all this discussion, does it matter any more what came first, or which is more superior etc? I find that part of Gobble's post largely irrelevant and potentially wrong. Even the word "Saamkhya" is a Sanskrit word (adjective derivative of "Samkhyaa") and does not have the roots from any Dravidian (pre-Vedic) language. But I agree even given the above, it still may have pre-Vedic roots, just that nowadays we may call it by a Sanskrit name. Please note that by Sanskrit I mean a language not necessarily after Panini's work. This language existed even before Panini. Panini made an order and formulated the grammer and thereafter it was called Sanskrit.

Discussions of this sort are very misleading and potentially damaging. Most references to Kapila (apparently the founder of "Samkhyadarshana"), if not all, are dated AD. It is very hard, if not impossible, to determine the age of the Vedas and even Mahabharata. You would be surprised to know that versions of Mahabharata existed even among the native tribes of India and some of them did not even have a written language. A dear friend of mine (another physicist actually) does research in that area and he keeps on telling me all these differing and fascinating variations of Mahabharata's little episodes. Right now he is working on "Harivansham", the sequel to Mahabharata.

Some even suggest that the North Indian classical music has come from the middle East and Karnatic music is the pure form of Indian classical music. Common sense would tell you that this is not true. If the North Indian music is derived from the middle East, where is the present form of that music in the middle East itself? Kerala had a long relationship with most of the middle East for as long as History can reach back, but the classical music from Kerala is mostly the Karnatic classical music. The state of Orissa had one of the least influences traditionally of outside invasions or interactions of the above kind, still the classical music prevailing largely in Orissa is in the North Indian style. Where has the use of violin in Karnatic music come from? Is it a traditional Indian instrument?

Why should we dwell on irrelevant topics? We in India have one of the richest forms of music, highly sophisticated and developed and the whole world now acknowledges that. When I taught a Masters level course on Indian classical music at the Music Department of the Ohio State University, USA, it was attended by most faculty members of the music department and some from neighboring Universities. I have seen the respect in their eyes and an attempt to embrace it. I know and can refer to many Western composers who are nowadays trying to come out of the "equally tempered" scale (fixed scale provided by the keys of the piano or the harmonium) and compose using a "harmonic" scale (which is how a scale or raga is achieved, as exemplified by the example of Mohanam above).

Actually I do not see any difference in the basics of both these classical forms of India, neither in melodic nor in rhythmic structures. Essentially the scales of our Ragas (although they are called by different names in the two styles) are the same and derived by the methods described above. Believe me, I have learnt a little, read a little and spent a lifetime on these things. The forms in which the melody is presented is somewhat different nowadays, and that may have something to do with outside influence or different ultra-local customs and cultures.

Gobble, this post is not meant to offend you. Please forgive me if it does. Just that I cannot agree with the general message you wanted to convey and I believe there is only one way of finding out about these things. Forgive me again, I do not want to spell it out.
 
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Hi gobble and asit,
I only taught that you gives were good at suggesting which amp is good, which speaker sounds better, which cdp is good but i never knew you were good even at classicial music history, notes and different ragas and probably i want to meet you guys to know more about this.
I never listened to any hindustani music in my life and i taught those guys were crying instead singing until i listen to parveen sultana's hamsadwani and i was totally taken out buy here performance and later the shop guy gave me a cd of ustad rashid khans hamsadwani and that was the begenning of liking of hindustani. I picked up all the cds of raag hamsadwani vocal and instrumental and i also picked up some cds of raag yaman kalyan.
Can you guys throw some light on raags, vilambit in teental, ektaal,drut gat etc
Anyhow between carnatic and hindustani music i liked the hindustani way of singing raag hamsadwani especially bajan naam hari by ustad rashid khan.
 
I disagree.

Ragaas are the product of careful study of the numerical ratios between musical intervals, the emotions they arouse and their impact on human consciousness. The notes and their intervals exist in nature (as states of excitation or vibrations at the atomic crystalline level?). Indians have traditionally been intimately familiar with the relationship between numbers (being pioneers of mathematics since pre-vedic times), and considered mathematical discoveries as expressions of divinity (Shaivism and Samkhya philosophy) and sought to express them through visual arts and sound. An example of a very early form of such expression is psalmody - the reciting of mantras, where melodic content is inseparable from the verse. The expression of these spoken verses by the bards in melodic form, was considered critical to communicating the hidden meaning that lay in these verses.

You will be interested to know that contemplation of numerical relationships and geometry are the root of many Indian art forms - Yantra diagrams, Indian temple architecture, and the code of proportions in Indian sculpture to name a few. The ancient Hindu grammarians and semanticists like Nandikeshvara and Bhartrihari described spoken language and its articulation based on a mathematical understanding of sound. Even Indian classical dance has a grammer and mathematics in the expression of "layas" as this recent article indicates (A Bharatanatyam performer par excellence). This long history of contemplating numbers and their relationships along with inward oriented exploration of spirituality and expression of their divinity through sound, has resulted in Indians developing one of the most sophisticated and complex understanding of musical intervals, their impact on human consciousness, and of taala - the rythmic structures possible, within the classical Indian Carnatic tradition.

Why Carnatic? Possibly because the original Samkhya philosophy got synthesised, distorted and contaminated with the onset of Vedism in the North and the south Indians are the inheritors of the original Shaivite beleifs and philosophy. According to the original Samkhya philosophy ( very roughly and in my own words) - "conciousness" pervades all matter and the nature of universe can be perceived using the five senses (not limited to intellect) by perceiving the relationships between numerical ratios that govern creation and existence of everything around. The Samkhya philosophy that brought forth many of these discoveries (incl. atomic theory, gravitation) is not Vedic but predates it. In short, expressions of numerical ratios, maths and geometry are inseparable from Indian art forms and pervade our understanding of everything, and all our arts are rooted in the expression of this original philosophy . When a Carnatic percussionist plays various permutations, combinations and patterns of taala so precisely with a Mridangam or Kanjira - he is expressing our cultural understanding of mathematics and numerical ratios and their inter-relationships, and in the process celebrating our awareness of their pervasive manifestation in the universe. And the listener is actually perceiving these numerical relationships through his senses other than intellectually. It is kind of like celebrating the existence of mathematics that governs the universe with our senses. You will recall that music is considered a spiritual quest in our civilization unlike in the west. It is for this reason.

Today if we have a vast library of melodic modes to draw upon to evoke various moods - be it SindhuBhairavi or Mohana or Kalyani it is due to the intellectual activity of classification not invention - of the discoveries about the way these musical intervals affect our emotions and impact the consciousness. The same way as Ayurveda named and classified the effects of countless variety of plants and herbs on physical and mental health a few 1000 years before the western world "invented" Botany and attributed it to their civilization. Western musical scales (major minor and dorian) are very rudimentary by contrast. One is likely to hear more sophisticated rhythmic and melodic improvisation in a single Raaga of 20 mins or even light classical Carnatic pieces than in the typical Jazz album of 60 mins. During a performance, an Indian classical musician is always improvising and thus re-inventing over and over the way he can express these pre-discovered relationships ( melodic modes or raagas). Hindustani is more recent and I believe is derived from our understanding embedded within Carnatic music theory and rests on it as a foundation.

On that note a mention of the accomplishments of Samkhya tradition will be incomplete without a tribute to the Jainas who also made great discoveries in mathematics. Jainism is also as old as the Shaivite tradition, predates vedic times and also considered mathematics as one of their sacred religious teachings.

Hope this helps put some perspective.
Regards

Somehow I missed this post, Gobble. While I agree with a few points you make and disagree with a few others (mostly on the same lines as Asit albeit I have nowhere near the amount of insight into raagas and other such technicalities), I fail to see the relevance of this post in light of my earlier one.

That being the subject of new raagas being inventions rather than discoveries.
 
Excellent post, Asit. And very informative. I have been meaning to ask you a few questions related to history of Indian music but have just not been able to cut out some time for it. Hopefully I can pick your brain sometime soon:)
 
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