What I Did as a 'small town' music afficianado

[moktan]

Some time spent at http://www.hifivision.com/dealer-feedback-review/19514-home-demonstrations.html prompted me to begin this thread.
It is a well known fact that given the current state of affairs in Indian Hi Fi, it will be some time (or perhaps never) before people who live in the boondocks will have the luxury to audition stuff.
The only option then is to make that trip, which while being the best thing can hardly be practicable most of the times.
However I realised that there is another way out.
Not the best of solutions to the purist but it worked for me and this forum had a major role to play in it.
It comprises of the following steps.
(i) Identify a friendly person who possess similar components as you and with whom you share musical tastes (at least there should be some overlap in preferences here).
Spending adequate time in the forum and exchanging personal messages help in this regard.
Of course such a soul should be suitably located in the metros, preferably those with an evolved and refined audio dealership. He should also be someone knowledgeable (reputation points indicate that to some degree).

(ii) Articulate what you are missing or want in your set up. Chances are that your fellow traveller in audio will empathise with you.

(iii) Get in touch with dealers who are friendly and willing to engage with you and enlighten you.
Thankfully there are some who are not in a tearing hurry to clinch the deal. These could well be people who import boutique stuff or gear that few people have heard about, just to explore the possibility of selling them.
It is perhaps possible that they may be willing to sell these to you at very attractive prices.

(iv) Have your friend (i) now audition the components for you. Not as a chore , but out of curiosity, out of that 'wanting to explore the possibility' for himself too.
(v) Have him then write to you his experience. This is the tricky part because it is not necessary that the most friendly and knowledgeable guy will be the most eloquent.

But sometimes it may all fall in place like it did for me. These are the two main protagonists of my audio project.
(i) Rahul (Gobble) was my good samaritan. We shared the same gear (speakers, amps and source).
We were both wanting to upgrade seeking to fill in the things that we were missing.*
The icing on the cake is that Rahul is a very eloquent writer.
His emails were very evocative and redolent of the sounds that he experienced during the during the auditioning.
To top it all, he brought to the table solid middle class prudence and though we don't know each other personally, he took immense care in ensuring that I wasn't profligate with my purchases.
(ii) Odyssey (Mr Sridhar Reddy). He made the equipment available for home auditioning and allowed Rahul to keep it for more than a week. He sent them to me even though the payments for the same hadn't been completed.
Besides these two there were a few others (Prem, Square Wave) who provided some really needed validation of the gear that I was contemplating buying.
And of course Particleman who helped me through those initial baby-step stages through this hobby.

I am not sure if other too will be as fortunate as me but then no harming in trying the route out, especially if other options seem remote or no existent.
Hope I wasn't too irrelevant with this rather verbose post.

* The routes we took in the end were different. It was DIY to an extent for him.

 

[paritosh]

wow, i really appreciate what you've done. and am all respects for guys like Gobble, SqWvw etc.

i too have been in a similar condition being in a mini metro where even some of the audio dealers do not know they have setup their gears wrongly (read my thread Funny Experience in dealer feedback). i had to make a couple of trips to other cities before finalising what i really wanted. all through i was ably guided by the friends of this forum.

i really am not too comfortable though with the idea of someone else doing the auditioning for you. atleast, it is not in case one is a beginner going for his first hifi like me. now onwards though, i may rely on the opinions of the other owners of Paradigm Monitor series, cause I guess the taste of sound signature of two of us would be somewhat similar so, its a great suggestions you have provided.

and we are forunate to have friends / veterans who are willing to give good advice (like venkatcr) to bolster your decision making and people like gobble with ingenious eloquence.

cheers

 

[entsurgeon]

Mok buddy, wat equipments did you audition? Wat did you purchase? Wht did you diy?
@paritosh- please provide link to the thread you are mentioning.

 

[moktan]

Hi entsurgeon..
Actually if you read my post, you will realise that i did not audition anything ..they were auditioned for me..some of these were
(i) audire callisto speakers with fostex 166E drivers
(ii) musica INT 30 amplifier
(iii) Dayens Ampino amplifier
(iv) marantz cd 6002 (this wasn't so much auditions as it was owner recommendations)
(v) musica usb DAC (the audition for this was done by Cranky, who used to be in this forum)
(vi) red wine signature 30.2 amp.......
also i did not DIY anything..that was up Gobble's street...

 

[Hiten]

New perspective and good approach to a guide for audio enthusiasts moktan. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ajay124]

moktan

Perhaps the most innovative, original and interesting thread I have read on the forum in a long time. I completely agree with your novel approach. As long as you can find someone whose ears, honesty and prudence you can trust!

It would work only for people who are willing to trust others. I tried to place myself in your shoes, and felt that for honesty and prudence there are many on the forum whom I would trust. But for 'ears' honestly the only other person I trust is my wife. We have spent the last 17-18 years together listening to the same music, and in recent months I have discovered that her judgement of good sound is unerring. But if a 'small town' afficianado could find a trustworthy 'big town' afficianado as you have, then this approach is a great option!

But the title of the thread should have been " What I did as a 'small town' 'big time' music afficianado"

 

[paritosh]

well,

an idea crops into my mind, don't know how far its feasible.

for people like me, who love to audition systems before they jump on to them, someone, maybe the importers corpus / dealers or our very own forum or veterans can take a lead to putting up road show / exhibition kind of a thing, where people can audition as many brands as possible in mini metros. people would even travel 2-3 hours if they get to audition variety of brands under one roof and can live with auditioning std test materials rather than strictly having their own to make it logistically possible for a public display.

how does that sound?

 

[gobble]

Thank you for the kind words Prabin.

Actually I am afraid I am not the best ears to have for an audition because my subjective impressions are usually far removed from reality
Then my "eloquent" choice of words can distract from the attention to details of the Sonics while I convey my impressions from outer space at times!!
Then the biggest challenge (the mother of all challenges for me) is to write-up a serious sounding audition with systematic attention to details!! hyeah:

Jokes come easy to me, but to write a few paragraphs that might cost my trusting audiophile friend his money is a challenge I am afraid I may not have lived up to too well! :sad:
Thankfully, in the end there is always the reputation of the product to fall back upon when in doubt.

I am truly honored that somebody distant I have never met has placed his faith in my opinion to gamble his hard earned money based on my recommendations.

I must confess however that helping Prabin has really been a self-serving exercise since I get to listen to gear that I would not normally have an excuse to audition at home. hyeah: :clapping:

And yep, this approach is a good workaround for those living in "not so happening" consumer markets. I hope other fellow audiophiles here will use this useful tip provided by Moktan to avoid buying blind and make more informed choices in their quest for audio nirvana.

--G0bble

 

[paritosh]

dear goble,

when you say you are aware that people are putting faith in you for their hard earned money, it shows you care about not to have them wasted. and jokes or no jokes, powerful words can convey a precise message. so, keep it going.

 

[prem]

Hi Moktan

Your post just gave me an idea. Maybe a group of 3-4 people can be each formed in Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Delhi. This group can audition equipment once a month for fellow members who do not have the access. This audition would be done in keeping with the music preferences of the member. Since people hear differently a group view would give the member a better idea.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Moktan, you are fortunate to find the reliable guys and friends whose experience you have trusted upon. It is your big quality to trust others.

I was also fortunate to get reliable guys who have silently influenced me and played key role in deciding my audio set-up. I am fortunate to have Asit and Sridhar as key persons. Whatever audio system I could set up is exclusively due to these two persons. Asit's legendary thread on Amp selection inspired me a lot. Sridhar's 'no hurry to clinch the deal' approach is really a hallmark. I am yet to come accross such a dealer, who never force to purchase rather guide the newbies. The boutique brands which ARN brings in India is really appreciable.

 

[paritosh]

@goble,

i would like to add.... people would trust ''big town afficcianados'' like you.

the reason being, i personally confess, i will fail a blind test when it comes to comparing two systems of similar DNA.

what ''small towners'' can do is have auditions of max no of setups they have access to and ask the ''big towners'' which one they liked the most along with their prefered listenings. this would give them a fairly good idea about the kind of sound signature to go for in other options.

 

[moktan]

Actually I am afraid I am not the best ears to have for an audition because my subjective impressions are usually far removed from reality
Then my "eloquent" choice of words can distract from the attention to details of the Sonics while I convey my impressions from outer space at times!!
Then the biggest challenge (the mother of all challenges for me) is to write-up a serious sounding audition with systematic attention to details!! hyeah:

--G0bble

Rahul hope you don't mind my digging into my inbox and retrieving gems like these ones....

these are some from the scores that you wrote after you compared two amps ..i am calling them XXXX and YYYY...

.......................................................................................................
Here are my impressions.

The XXXX is a NO-NO. The sonic signature did not change much from the NAD, although you will be tempted because the pre section is cleaner sounding , it has no real merits, you will get tired of it pretty soon. I was done within 2 hours of listening and did not want to hear more. Had to push myself to listen for a few more hours. It has no worthwhile sonic signature to mention.

The YYYYY is well a little genius!! A very talented child prodigy, a precious little gem! I can hear both singers effortlessly in a duet, even when the female takes a backing role (Joe cocker, Jennier Warnes - up where we belong). The sheer musicality of the performance is well astounding!! Like suddenly I am able to follow melodic patterns like in my teens and earlier I was not because my mind was clouded due to pressures of adulthood! It really brings out the progression of notes so wonderfully you will be nothing but charmed. The sonic signature makes vocals and violins stand out and all other musicians appear to take on an ancillary role.

I listened to TN Krishnans carnatic violin, it was wonderful!! For the first time I have been following without any mental effort all the melodic phrases made on the Mridangam with the left hand (bass skin) and it is sounding more like how Zakir plays with the Tabla. I could actually see and feel the effort of pressing down the skin, bending it and releasing in clever well practised fashion at every moment - without attempting to focus on it.

If you have a child at home who needs to practice sections of tracks and follow the melodies, well this little wonder is like a soft-spoken tutor who brings out the pieces to be played in stark simplicity for a child to follow.

Actually instead of hitting the bed yesterday I ended up listening till 5:30am. I picked a Famous Conductor series CD, with Pierre Montreux conducting Debussy (Nocturnes) and Tchaikovsky (Sleeping Beauty). This is not a audiophile class recording as it is restored from the 50s and 60s. However the amp made the music *really* alive!! I was constantly reminded of the superb effort and human endeavour being enacted in front of me. I was tempted to flay my arms urging them to perform more and more in between It was like giving life to a dead and innate being, giving organic form to everything it had to present. Like the flashing silver of a school of fish just below the water, I heard sections where the harmonic and melodic lines travel and spread out in the concert hall like a flash of lightning from a point where the first violinist picked up the line and a dozen others seated around joined in an instant. It can recreate the ambience of the original concert hall nicely. The section in Debussy's Nocturnes where there is chorus of people with mouths open in a big O and make eeire and ghostly "ooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeee!" sounds over long passages, transformed me into a 12 year old child with wild imagination. I have not lived such child like imagination in decades! I could just see painted faces in white robes haunting me and fell the child like thrill of an adventure on a full moon night on a rocky forested terrain with these creatures of the nether world around me!!

And coming to the metal work on cymbals and bells etc, it has that "harmonic splay" and splash credited to the XXXX in the review (and which the XXXX has none). Microdynamics are very good, in the way trumpet or violin sections of the symphony jump out at you. So with Carnatic violins and Veena recitals and vocals.


The downsides? It is weaker than the XXXX, less heft and body than the GG pre + NAD. Lack of raw power. You will always be reminded of its small size listening to it, then you will wonder how it achieves the ambience of a symphonic concert hall and mimics the scale of the sound so wonderfully!! Thats why it called it a child prodigy, a talented genius earlier. Bass is also adequate and present, frequency extension is good. Only the lack of heft and raw power is something you need to be concerned about.

You get for yourself a real taste of high end qualities with this diminutive little amp. The difference between the two is clear - The YYYYY folks have genuine insight and wisdom into audio (that takes decades to develop), the XXXXX chap is just a small time business man trying his luck at Audio. It is so good that I am tempted to buy one for myself considering its below xxxx price. .......
......................................................................................................
And yes, ALL the negatives of the XXXX are as extracted from the review (he is talking about a review from a famous audio site)


less fullness and density
less mass and tone density
less robust
less resolved and refined as drive power requirements increase
Average volume pot
No mass and oomph
Cold sound not warm
No whomp and heft of the heavy-duty equipment
less intensity or fullness.

And no I am not believing what I want to believe to prove a hunch! IT is very apparent on a listen!
The YYYY is almost equally lacking in body and tone density, but my impression was overwhelmingly like listening to a very special and talented child whose voice is yet to develop and I kept forgiving it readily as I kept getting bowled over and over by its performance!!
......................................................................................................
I now figured out the difference between the GG+NAD and the YYYY, after a late night listen.

In the YYYY the upper frequencies waft out of the speakers like the aroma of freshly baked bread or food items - the upper range of frequencies has an outwards momentum (without sounding trebly or shrill or fatiguing), like its out to fill a vacuum, the Tanpura radiates and the drone persists, and everything else in the middle register including vocals is positively influenced by this attribute (better harmonics?). The NAD is the culprit here. I though the GG improved the frequency extension, but the NAD is still limiting and restraining the sound signature from making an overall change. I will jump on a tube power amp project in earnest now, and hasten building a final chassis for my pre so i can start the power-amp project sooner.

Overlooking the smaller sound of the YYYYY you will still enjoy it for its qualities I mentioned, considering you recover the investment on the NAD. Only, as I insisted yesterday, you may end up searching for another upgrade by next year. But the sound signature makes it a worthy substitute to the NAD, if you recover the investment.
......................................................................................................

 

[Hiten]

Gobble, bro we need reviews like that ^. :thumbsup:

 

[paritosh]

How about the road shows I suggested for mini metros?

 

[gobble]

Hey Moktan

I am now curious what you did with the little Musica amp now that you have the RWA? I kinda assumed you were not happy with the Musica and got tired of it (My fault?). Or is it your second amp for another room?


-G0bble

 

[ssf]

Posts from Moktan makes me reach for g0bble, um google more often than not, for enlightenment.

A word of caution for the good Samaritans though. Trust is the word that Ajay used and that I feel is something which is in short supply in and out of the forum. Maybe we could throw in a bucket full of maturity to go with the trust too. Be prepared for brickbats more often than accolades.

If I am sounding a bit cynical, I could always blame it on the whiskey !!!

 

[moktan]

Hey Moktan

I am now curious what you did with the little Musica amp now that you have the RWA? I kinda assumed you were not happy with the Musica and got tired of it (My fault?). Or is it your second amp for another room?


-G0bble

I still have that amp. That's a special amp and will contribute towards a great desktop system when paired with the right speakers.
I think I am going to keep this one.
Thanks

 

[moktan]

this is the review (actually one in a series of impressions) that Rahul communicated to me about the Red Wine Signature 30.2....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The best things about this amp are its silence, texture and decay. It brings out the sound of various instruments with a touch of authenticity. The decay helps hear one listen to intricate and rapid strokes of the tabla or lightning fast violin pieces played in western fashion (as opposed to "Gayaki ang" of Indian style) with a clear separation between strokes or notes. For example without the RWA the superfast violin passages appeared to require super-human talent or it looks like some notes were glossed over quickly without rendering them precisely. With the RWA, suddenly what was being played sounded playable by a normal human being and also with each note rendered precisely, and evenly timed after its predecessor. Like a doctors handwriting suddenly became legible enabling you to read the prescription, I heard with clarity what was earlier a blur of notes. Likewise with tabla pieces - you know how the rapid strokes blur from one fingerstroke to the next - well they become separate and well defined and each stroke stands out by itself. . Each note is accompanied by silence surrounding it, given its own space to come alive and light up briefly like a firefly. The RWA improves hearing


The texture is really something. I used to love the tube coloration of my preamp, its artificial smoothness. After I returned the RWA, and plugged in my gear again, I realized to my dismay that what I had been enjoying all these years was a dishonest portrayal of the music. Well you can read elsewhere about how basoon clarinet or other brass instruments have a timber that is or needs to be drawn out by various audio gear to varying degrees of authenticity and accuracy. This one does a good job of making my setup sound fake in comparison. Suffice to say any future DIY I do will not match the RWA on this front - at least as long as I stick to my existing preamp.

I never realized on some flute tracks that the flute was being playing with with a steady increasing volume (like an approaching locomotive from a distance continuously blaring, but totally spiritual sounding ) to great effect, until I heard it on the RWA. I also heard some very clever lip-tricks on the flute that were "inaudible" to me on my gear all these years - Well more like I heard an imitation of the sound effect but could not visualize how the lips were manipulated to tease out the sound, on my gear.

Now for the negatives (were you hoping there weren't any? )

It is a tad anemic. No you will not listen to it and say the low frequencies are missing. Rather the heft and weight and drive are missing. My combo lends weight even at low volumes.

The volume does not scale as you pump it up. The fullrangers as it is tend to sound too midrangy at high volumes so its not fair to put all the blame on the amp, but my pre+MyRef power combo does a much much better job on this front. In other words you are certain to miss the low end grunt and sense of grip or raw power other amps exude.

Want to play hard rock music loud? Sigh! Find another amp. Bass lines do not sound out with that rawness and definition that make a listener marvel. Maybe even fuzzy sounding.

The sound lacks bristles, more like a well sandpapered and unfinished surface. Remember running your hands upwards the neck of your childhood friend or a brother immediately after a haircut? That "satisfaction" and the "tickles" will be missing. Brass instruments sound great texturally but lack bite.

A very distinct tonality that takes over all the music like talking with a fine translucent tracing paper over you mouth and letting it vibrate like a diaphragm. As a kid you might have done it playfully. You can hear it pervasively with everything you play through this amp.

I thought it lacked swing at high volumes, a little flat. this one is definitely best enjoyed only at low to moderate volumes. Cannot sound pulsating whereas even at low volumes my pre-power combo throbs at the slightest cue even when not playing trance kind of music

Individual well recorded voices don't sound powerful and deliver the impact emotionally. My preamp combo is much better if not the last word on it. Of course all the other benefits bring out a beauty in delivery of vocals with the RWA, as with instruments - so its a win here and a compromise there kinda situation.

So with all the negatives, is it worth buying? Well I could not enjoy my own setup the day after I returned it. Whatever it brings to the table is worth it as a benchmark and standard for its accurate reproduction of timber with an authentic flavor, devoid of any buzz, hiss or noise. Talking about noise - don't just think audible noise. For to achieve such a noise free system, one will have to abandon thinking like a music lover and think pure electronics theory at an advanced level relating to distortion and how to design circuits that minimize it. Now waiting for a DIY project that promises it.

You can buy it feeling satisfied that you have a gold standard and need not worry about not getting some value out of it. But the catch is you will need another amp for enjoying the grunt, sense of drive and raw power. And that other amp will likely not deliver the same texture and accuracy and quiet reproduction like this one. So there lies the catch - you have to spend that XX knowing its not everything you will get from an amp.

Once again, just remember bass is very much there it is not absent, only the grunt and send of power lifting heft isn't there. Good for Jazz chamber music unplugged sessions and all no doubt. No make that really great, not just good. You will hear the double bass to your satisfaction not to worry, with the fine nuances of plucking clearly brought out. No doubt about it. I think the comparison to an SET on the 6moons review was not out of place.

 

[gobble]

Hey Moktan

You never told me - does your opinion tally with my evaluation of the gear? Did you find any issues about the sonics that are divergent with my assessment?

Your feedback on deviations from my view will help me correct my perceptions.

Thanks
--G0bble