WHO MADE WHO! – a guide on how to select components and system matching

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Who Made Who – a guide on how to select components and system matching (and save some money too)



Crazy

When I first started out on this hobby (90’s) I took a bunch of music that I loved and went to a dealer. On listening to his high-fi setup I couldn’t bare to listen to my beloved CD’s. At that time he told me garbage in garbage out and because his system was revealing it just brought up the flaws in my CD’s. With time I moved away from my beloved Sony F series mini compo (on which everything sounded great) to a hi fi setup (ALR Jordan – Marantz).


Crying

To use it to its maximum I started buying so called well recorded CD’s. Out went my loved CD’s and in came stockfisch, Audiophile voices, etc. Basically the setup started dictating what I could listen too rather than the other way around. Well, I was discovering new music and some of it was decent so I went along for the ride. Cables changes happened, tweaks came in, fuses, footers, magic pens, head vice et all.

But music didn’t really sound involving. Going to a concert and listening to music on a PA setup seemed a lot more fun. Listening to music in some bars sounded fun. I am sure many of you’ll have experienced this. This guide will help you identify components using your ears that match your music preferences.


Another One Bites the Dust

Very often we end up buying components that are reviewed well, but we end up with a disappointing system. Over the past 25 years, I too have changed multiple setups, got success with some, where as some have outrightly disappointed. I decided to write a guide based on my experience and the learning I have gained from fellow forum members so that one can have a well matched and enjoyable system. This guide will also help us understand why only audiophile CD’s sound good on some systems and how to build a system on which you can listen to your loved music.



Mama I’m coming home - Understanding some terms:

  • Ye Shyam Mastani - Timing:

    Whenever one plays an instrument or sings a song one has to time it correctly. If the timing is off it will sound wrong. Follow a TV song contest and you can see this clearly. For some reason when the guru or one of the better singers sings it sounds right. It connects with you and you body swings or taps to the beat. This is another reason why singers like Kishore Kumar sound beautiful compared to modern trained singers. Kishore just banters and sings in tune naturally. Listen to Ye Shyam Mastani by any modern singer and it sounds mechanical. See the way Kishore builds the song and then banters about and yodels along. He was a master at timing. For me, this is the most important aspect of music.


  • Jaded - Centering of the vocal:

    Here the reference is to the pitch of the vocal. I thank our fellow forum member, Prem for bringing this concept to my conscious mind. Round of applause for him please. Ok now dream on...I mean read on...

    When one plays an instrument, there is the central octave and a higher and lower octave. An octave is a group of keys that keep repeating.
    Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Da Ne Sa is one octave. Say it aloud using your normal voice. Now say it out again using a higher pitch and once more with a lower pitch. Though the notes are the same they will sound different.

  • A good video that explains this is

  • Whenever you buy any component look for the centering of the vocal. Some equipment tend to play toward a higher octave where as some tend to play towards a lower octave. We very often confuse this with bright and warm sound. Bright and warm is a function of balancing the treble, mids or bass differently.

    THIS IS WHY many of us end up Jaded and spend on cables and tweaks. It is to sub consciously compensate for wrong centering. A components centering can never change, so if you are stuck with a upper centered component, you cannot do anything about it.

    If the centering of the vocal is wrong, then the component will only sound good on music that fits in. This is why you realize that you are not able to listen to many male artists on your new setup. They just sound wrong. The Berrylium based speakers were notorious for playing music toward the upper octave. This was probably done to match the slower drivers to the fast Beryllium tweeter but they just sound wrong. Maybe their larger premium towers compensated for this. Neil Diamond cannot sound like the hulk or like an Opera singer. On a well centered system he will sound right.


  • Ride of the Valkyrie - Dynamics

    This is the ability of the system to differentiate between soft and loud sounds. The best way to determine dynamics is to use a well recorded classical piano CD. The piano as an instrument spans a large number of octaves which gives you exposure to highs, mids and lows. You will be able to discern the difference between a gentle tap or a slam of the note. It should suddenly jump at you.


  • Radio ga ga - Harmonics

    Suppose you hit a 1Khz key on an instrument. It will deliver 1Khz accompanied by a bunch of other frequencies at lower amplitudes. These accompanied frequencies are called harmonics. This is why the same note played on different instruments sounds different. This is why the lacquer one uses on an instrument also affects the sound.

    In theory the system should not add or subtract any harmonics on its own. The recording should have captured whatever harmonics the instrument was delivering and the system should just replay the same. However every component adds its own flavour. Some do it more (coloured systems) and some do it less (neutral systems). There is another category where the component can be too dry and seem to lack in harmonics and I would call that being too dry.

    Having a system rich in harmonics or a dry one is a personal choice. Some people like to hear the twang resonating from the guitar while others prefer a direct sound. From my experience it is very difficult to get a system that delivers rich harmonics and times well. Usually harmonically rich systems do not sound good on heavy rock songs but can sound breathtaking on Jazz, Blues and some audiophile CD’s that are engineered for hifi. Systems that are too dry go the other way. They time well but sound boring on harmonicaly rich CD's. That why as far as harmonics go, aim for neutral design as the end goal for a system, unless your music taste is limited to a particular genre. You can use cables as final spicing to dry out or add little harmonic bloom to a system.


  • Bohemian Rhapsody - Bass and Understanding damping factor and speaker matching:

    I am not referring to the quantum of bass but rather the way it is delivered. We often read a term called damping factor on amplification. Tube amps have damping factors around 10 where as solid state amps have damping factors ranging from 100 – 1000 for class D amps. There is no right and wrong here. It depends on your speaker. If you buy a modern day speaker and match it to a traditional tube amp, the bass will wound wooly and lack control. (Yes, there are exceptions but I am talking about 40W and below tube amps. Not the modern day KT based monsters. Nor am I talking about SE Vs PP tube amps)
    On the other hand, if you buy a vintage designed speaker like the new Klipsch vintage series, some BBC monitors, Lowthers, Rethm,
    Audio Note etc. and match them to a high damped amplifier you will wonder where the magic went. The drivers are designed for certain damping factors and you should match the amp accordingly.


    Understanding dry Vs wet bass

    This is easily seen in cables and electronics though speakers also have this parameter. Dry bass is bass that is direct, tight and matter of fact. It doesn’t bong or linger. There is no drag or BLOOM to it. On the other hand wet bass has a certain roundness, plumpness or bloom to it. Again there is nor right and wrong here but when you buy components keep this in mind. A dry cd player and a wet loose amp will not compensate each other, but will pull music in two opposite directions. This is one of the reasons why components bought from the same manufacturer usually sound balanced.

    I would like to add that never buy a system that is too big or too small for your room. It will overpower the room or you will overdrive the system. System positioning is critical to the end result but that is a different topic, but please keep this in mind. It is critical if you want to have the above parameters delivered. Prem did touch upon system positioning in the JBL 4343 article page, which I find very useful.
Paradise City?

Most components and cables are a combination of these above parameters. Cardas has a warm plumpy bass, nordost a dry one, Cardas tends to center lower, Nordost higher and so on. As you go higher up in these series you get better balance of all these parameters.

ESS Sabre DACs tend to be centered higher compared to AKM DAC’s which tend to center lower. Please don’t flame here.

I have seen this in opamps and tubes too. Telefunken are neutral and correctly centered. Mullards wet bass low centering and so on.

Of course there are manufacturers who factor this in and balance the centering but this is what you will see in general.

This is important for you to recognize which component maybe contributing to the flavour you do or don’t like. Hence when you read that brand X Cd player has an ESS DAC look if the component tends to center the sound high when you demo it or if the reviewer hints at it.


Mama I’m coming home - Summing it up

According to me timing and centering of the vocal are the two prime aspects that one must look out for. If you get these two right, you will enjoy most of your music. This is why I try not to use a subwoofer for 2 channel because matching the speed and tone to the main speaker is very difficult, even if you integrate the crossover transition somehow. If the same system can deliver dynamics or adequate harmonic as well you will begin to enjoy a larger spread of your collection. Lastly if a system delivers timing, correct octave centering, dynamics and adequate harmonics (i.e. not too coloured ) you will enjoy almost your entire collection. Even poorly recorded CD’s will make your foot tap along and your brain will ignore the noisy aspects. A system balanced on all the parameters will be graded as a Level 4 setup based on my earlier articles.

I personally like to see and feel the artists intention when I listen to music. Some say music lies in the space between notes, which is correct. I would add that the art of music also lies in imperfection, the struggle to sing a sentence in one breath, the way one handles an error, etc. - Ozzy Osbourne is not about his lyrics but is about how HE delivers them. You should be able to hear the imperfection in his style of signing. If one dressed up as Ozzy and even matched his voice it wouldn't sound the same because of the lack his personality. When Kishore Kumar sings you must be able to pick up his banter. This is what makes him unique. Even when Prince sings, you can tell that in his mind gives a rats bottom about what the world thinks about it. The best rendition of Bohemian Rhapsodey is when Freddy sings it at Live Aid. He had been diagnosed with AIDS and had nothing to loose and he just lets loose and conquers your heart. That is where the true artist lives, in his or her mind; and if you get these parameters right your system will tend to deliver that too.


I Want to Break Free

Use this guide when you demo a component or are looking at making a component level change. Don’t go by reviews or even worse dealer pressure tactics. Dealers are notorious for showing you brand X and then describing how brand Y will sound using terms like ya it will be warmer so you will like it if you find X too bright. Brand Y can be warm and time terribly and then Another One has bitten the dust. Try not to use fancy cables initially when demoing or building your setup, as their colour can greatly throw you off and then you are compensating for each components deficiency. Lesser variables, better the chance of you picking up the parameters as discussed above.

If you are listening to a new setup for the first time and want to understand the CD player, then try 2 or 3 different CD players on the same system. With time you will be able to tell what each CD player is doing based on these parameters. Of course if the amp times badly the whole system will time off but when I don't have a choice during a listening session this is what I do.

I hope my fellow forum members find this guide useful and that it saves them being Shot in the dark. Even a budget setup can sound fun if you identify the components carefully. Sometimes selecting a neutral amplifier and speaker and adding a DAC to flavour the sound could be all you need. Sometimes the flavour can come even from a single wire. Don’t get taken in by terminology like DSD, ladder DAC’s, Berrylium, paper cones, ceramic cones, upsampling, ladder volume controls, tubes are better, solid state is better, etc. That is all marketing hyperbole done by these companies who want a reason for why their product is better. Yes, sometimes technology like when to use a single ended amp as well as basics like matching amplifier power to the speaker is important but that is a separate topic. Look for the parameters that matter to enjoying music and you will finally break free. Peace.
 
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Looks like lockdown has given this forum a new height and fms are churning out wonderful new threads in spades. This is also one of them and a very important as its the reason why people go and buy audio systems - to treat themselves with music.

I dont know the generality but your ideas seem to concur my thoughts although i have only 6 yrs in this hobby and this is my second system.

I believe key is to understand what one wants from his system, if one knows that life becomes easier. My thoughts

Personally i have been a looker for good vocals in a system. Vocals is considered to be the perfect instrument and we should not differentiate it much from other instruments. Vocals should be right in front and not diffused just be there at a place and should never move. If a system gets vocals right half of the job is done. This is one area also where analog vs digital war comes, and ladder dacs win for me as they make vocals more warm and cause a downward shift to central pitch as well. Of course vinyls are much better in this regard if its an analog recording.If vocals can give goosebumps its over for me, i dont actually want more and this doesnt mean that i dont listen to instrumental songs. But if a system can sound good with vocals it should be good enough for most music. Vocals is the most important, advanced, perfect instrument in history of mankind, and our system should be able to render it as such.

Creating music is all about timing and placement like striking a cricket ball. If sounds are timed correctly by system they will go far inside our senses. Timing and dynamics go hand in hand, any real instrument you play, you need to master the control of timing and volume of a note so that it sounds, When to express a tone subtly and when to express it with power is all what makes a good player different from a master. If you master only timing and not volume, it will not entice you. Vocals are also to be considered here as an instrument. Check any Lata song and you will know why she stand out from anyone else. The i think somewhere by tining you also meant about the throw of words from singers and the modulation, thats also a part of vocal mastery.

We say this system is neutral and this is not. This is all not right i think and every system will add a certain color to make the sound more attractive, some will add a lottle analogishness and bring the pitch down, some would be designed to play at utmost resolution sparing no bad recordings, both are colored because we dont know the actual reference point. Key is to understand what one wants in his music.


There are one very important things involved in tussle - mind and its psychology. This plays a very big role. When i listen to a song on a small speaker, i never bother about the technicalities and i only focus on music whereas same song played on my system, the mind automatically goes to a state of a critic. This does happen unconciously and its not because i dont like my system, i like my system. The unrealistic expectations a system can have is a big factor for enjoyment of music.

I also think anyone who is in audio jouney should try two things definetely - one is to try play a live instrument, and second is to practice the greatest instrument everyone has, the vocals. If both of these can be done in the room where you listen to music, its best. Both of these things enable the mind to actually feel the soul of music and also appreciate other master musicians and vocalists. It will bring him closer to music and also away from the unrealistic expectations.

You got a good music system if the sound attracts you magnetically and while its playing its very difficult to think of anything else. Thats all there is. Lots of things involved to get a good system, room, connectivity cables, power, isolation, placement, room treatmemt, mood etc. One should not expect to bring home a set of speakers and amplifier expect they will rock at first go. Its a jouney that takes time and patience. With time and patience only one learns what he wants. Everything that glitters at first instance is not gold.

Once one learns what he wants it becomes easier to match components and get the sound one wants.

I wrote only from the perspective of a music loving and music caring person, but i have known a few who care more about sound and not that much about actual music thats playing. Maybe there is an alternative strategy for them.
 
As timing of Lata and Kishore is mentioned how do we know the timing is been rendered accurately by the setup. Objectively, measuring the step response and square wave response is considered to be a properly timed setup. Room response where the EDT is higher than 0.5s will have too much energy and make the setup too very lively and make your listening sessions short. Imo, the best judge about your setup is you are listening your setup hours together without fatigue and still wanting more and you are fresh at the end of session.
 
As timing of Lata and Kishore is mentioned how do we know the timing is been rendered accurately by the setup. Objectively, measuring the step response and square wave response is considered to be a properly timed setup. Room response where the EDT is higher than 0.5s will have too much energy and make the setup too very lively and make your listening sessions short. Imo, the best judge about your setup is you are listening your setup hours together without fatigue and still wanting more and you are fresh at the end of session.

Timing is a count of how many beats can fit into a phrase. Normally it's to a count of 4. In Kishore kumar songs you don't have a beat going thuk thuk but he automatically spaces out each phrase to a count in his head. The way you space it out and yet fit in the phrase is timing. It's the very basics of singing or playing an instrument followed by modulation. The phrase Ye shyammmmm mastaniiii fits into 4 counts. 2 for Ye shyam and 2 for mastaniiii. That's why he pulls the words shyammmm so he can fit Ye shyammm in 2 counts and mastaniiii with some music in the other 2 and then switches to the next phrase once the 4 counts r up. It's the spacing between this counts that is timing. I don't think Kishore can be measured objectively. He was a master artist and sometimes could have played with timing too unknowingly between integration of phrases. That's the imperfection that makes the great. Maybe the winner of Indian idol can who is a trained singer can be measured.

This is how the song is timed. The transition to the next phrase or word is post the 4th count. Imagine a strobe light firing 4 times as a beat.

ये शाम
1..2..
मस्तान mastani
1..2..

मदहोश madhhosh
1..2..

किये जाए ciye jai
1..2..

मुझे डोर mujhe dor
1..2..

कोई खींचे Coe chiche
1..2..

तेरी और Teri aur
1..2..

लिए जाए Lei jai
1..2..
 
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Timing is a count of how many beats can fit into a phrase. Normally it's to a count of 4. In Kishore kumar songs you don't have a beat going thuk thuk but he automatically spaces out each phrase to a count in his head. The way you space it out and yet fit in the phrase is timing. It's the very basics of singing or playing an instrument followed by modulation. The phrase Ye shyammmmm mastaniiii fits into 8 counts. 4 for Ye shyam and 4 for mastaniiii. That's why he pulls the words shyammmm so he can fit Ye shyammm in 4 counts and mastaniiii with some music in the other 4 and then switches to the next phrase once the 4 counts r up. It's the spacing between this counts that is timing. I don't think Kishore can be measured objectively. He was a master artist. Maybe the winner of Indian idol can who is a trained singer.

This is how the song is timed. The transition to the next phrase or word is post the 4th count. Imagine a strobe light firing 4 times as a beat.

ये शाम
1234

मस्तान mastani
1234

मदहोश madhhosh
1234

किये जाए ciye jai
1234

मुझे डोर mujhe dor
1234

कोई खींचे Coe chiche
1234

तेरी और Teri aur
1234

लिए जाए Lei jai
1234

Adding to this from system side, background noise and attack / decay of notes affect the timing and dynamics in a system and one way to improve a system is to get a black background with no noise and get it right in terms of attack n decay, it should be just silence in background. If i start a song and instruments just emerge into the scene in a silent space and lata or kishore just emerge out of nowhere and start singing, thats the feeling i am looking for. If i feel that a song has started in air and music is about to come or singer is about to sing, then thats not something i prefer. Background silence will also emsure i hear better micro dynamics. Another important issue for timing is also related to the attack and decay of notes, the notes should start gently and decay gently and naturally without any lingering or abruptly. Once both background noise and attack decay become right, this should affect timing and dynamics positively. I am also the firm opinion this area is more related to source and dac in case of a digital system. Clean power helps alot with noise reduction, power cords yes.

And its just not about singers, even musicians need tonget their timing right. The musicians used in past bollywood somgs were real masters, knew about their stuff all out, when you hear same tune played by average musician, you wont get that feeling. Sadly no one knows about them much.

Hear these couple of bollywood tunes by master Ustad Shahid Parvez, excellent musicians produce excellent results.


One more while he teaches students

 
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Adding to this from system side, background noise and attack / decay of notes affect the timing and dynamics in a system and one way to improve a system is to get a black background with no noise and get it right in terms of attack n decay, it should be just silence in background. If i start a song and instruments just emerge into the scene in a silent space and lata or kishore just emerge out of nowhere and start singing, thats the feeling i am looking for. If i feel that a song has started in air and music is about to come or singer is about to sing, then thats not something i prefer. Background silence will also emsure i hear better micro dynamics. Another important issue for timing is also related to the attack and decay of notes, the notes should start gently and decay gently and naturally without any lingering or abruptly. Once both background noise and attack decay become right, this should affect timing and dynamics positively. I am also the firm opinion this area is more related to source and dac in case of a digital system. Clean power helps alot with noise reduction, power cords yes.

And its just not about singers, even musicians need tonget their timing right. The musicians used in past bollywood somgs were real masters, knew about their stuff all out, when you hear same tune played by average musician, you wont get that feeling. Sadly no one knows about them much.

Hear these couple of bollywood tunes by master Ustad Shahid Parvez, excellent musicians produce excellent results.


If I go to the gym and diet I may get an Arnold or Van Damme body. But I'll never become Tom cruise or Brad Pitt. Madhuri vs PC. Right vs left brain. Same for audio. You pick.
 
Beautifully written and constructed post Audiopro ! loved reading this

Just snipping and quoting a small part of the post. I always had a focus on harmonic rich systems especially the way that enriches male vocals and the rich bass registers since I miss it so much when its not there but this also explains my disappointment with Rock and never put this together until I read your post .

I guess to get rock right on a harmonic rich system, you need to get the speed and timing as well as the acoustics right as well which is a kind of Holy grail since that means getting component matching spot on.

<Snip>
Having a system rich in harmonics or a dry one is a personal choice. Some people like to hear the twang resonating from the guitar while others prefer a direct sound. From my experience it is very difficult to get a system that delivers rich harmonics and times well. Usually harmonically rich systems do not sound good on heavy rock songs but can sound breathtaking on Jazz, Blues and some audiophile CD’s that are engineered for hifi. Systems that are too dry go the other way. They time well but sound boring on harmonicaly rich CD's. That why as far as harmonics go, aim for neutral design as the end goal for a system, unless your music taste is limited to a particular genre. You can use cables as final spicing to dry out or add little harmonic bloom to a system.
</Snip>
 
Beautifully written and constructed post Audiopro ! loved reading this

Just snipping and quoting a small part of the post. I always had a focus on harmonic rich systems especially the way that enriches male vocals and the rich bass registers since I miss it so much when its not there but this also explains my disappointment with Rock and never put this together until I read your post .

I guess to get rock right on a harmonic rich system, you need to get the speed and timing as well as the acoustics right as well which is a kind of Holy grail since that means getting component matching spot on.

Hi Arj,

Most rock albums are recorded flat and direct. What I am trying to say is that I don't see any emphasis added anywhere that favour harmonics. Its like Diana Krall singing in lushness or crooning VS ACDC just going at it. Infact most rock albums have dynamics that are flat as well. So if the system tends to be harmonically rich, its not being helped in anyway by the rock song. Also some systems tend to overdo the harmonics and those systems never time right. Sometimes changing power cables to stock cables reduces harmonic bloom and can help improve the sense of timing though you will loose out on the lushness and the noise floor will increase. If your system is too rich, try moving to a stock power cord and see what happens. Stock power cords tend to be dry sounding. I experienced this when I used some Shunyata power cables. The really high guage ones tended to make the muisc sound thicker and slow and I had to balance the system using thinner power cords elsewhere. PM me what setup you have.
 
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The really high guage ones tended to make the muisc sound thicker and slow and I had to balance the system using thinner power cords elsewhere. PM me what setup you have.

I have observed this as well. Thick power cords tend to be slow, i use thick power cord only for power amp, rest are all 14awg. If i use thick power cord for my dac or preamp, sound tends to be over harmonic and over dense and loses dynamics and subtelty, tends to sound unnatural. It sounds very rich for few minutes then after that i realise what happened actually and go back to thin ones.
 
Hi Arj,

Most rock albums are recorded flat and direct. What I am trying to say is that I don't see any emphasis added anywhere that favour harmonics. Its like Diana Krall signing in a lushness or crooning VS ACDC just going at it. Infact most rock albums have dynamics that are flat as well. So if the system tends to be harmonically rich, its not being helped in anyway by the rock song. Also some systems tend to overdo the harmonics and those systems never time right. Sometimes changing power cables to stock cables reduces harmonic bloom and can help improve the sense of timing though you will loose out on the lushness and the noise floor will increase. If your system is too rich, try moving to a stock power cord and see what happens. Stock power cords tend to be dry sounding. I experienced this when I used some Shunyata power cables. The really high guage ones tended to make the muisc sound thicker and slow and I had to balance the system using thinner power cords elsewhere. PM me what setup you have.
i am all back to basics and with no amp now. so have a headphone for music
 
Guys, help me understand you. I always felt timing feels slow when the attack and decay is extended and not snap. But you say harmonics impact timing. I do understand that harmonics will make a sound lush/sweet (which may not be to the taste of those who like dry/airy sound). But are we also saying that harmonics slow down attack and decay?
 
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Guys, help me understand you. I always felt timing feels slow when the attack and decay is extended and not snap. But you say harmonics impact timing. I do understand that harmonics will make a sound lush (which may not be to the taste of those who like dry/airy sound). But are we also saying that harmonics slow down attack and decay?

Hi Sachin

I don't know the technical answer but i've seen that systems that are harmonically rich tend to falter on timing where as systems that are dry tend to time well. Of course there are exceptions like audionote, the new marantz stuff and accuphase that are harmonically rich yet time well. I suggest listening be the final tool to determine if you're body bops or foot taps to the sound or not. don't approach it technically. If i had to use my head i'd say harmonically rich systems with bass that blooms or is mushy tend to time off compared to harmonically rich with a dry tighter bass.
 
Hi Sachin

I don't know the technical answer but i've seen that systems that are harmonically rich tend to falter on timing where as systems that are dry tend to time well. Of course there are exceptions like audionote, the new marantz stuff and accuphase that are harmonically rich yet time well. I suggest listening be the final tool to determine if you're body bops or foot taps to the sound or not. don't approach it technically. If i had to use my head i'd say harmonically rich systems with bass that blooms or is mushy tend to time off compared to harmonically rich with a dry tighter bass.

Thanks. Or is it that the added harmonics (beyond what’s in the recorded song) one hears are not really harmonics (how can a system produce what’s not in the recording?), but the illusion created by frequencies lingering around longer than they should?
 
Thanks. Or is it that the added harmonics (beyond what’s in the recorded song) one hears are not really harmonics (how can a system produce what’s not in the recording?), but the illusion created by frequencies lingering around longer than they should?

No I wouldn't say so. Ive heard quite a few products that are not harmonically rich and yet sound slow. I won't name them here because people may own them and they are not cheap.
 
Whenever an audio signal goes through an analog electronic component, some distortion and harmonics are added to it no matter while recording or playback. Infact its desirable sometimes to generate harmonics to tones delibrately as they add warmth and fullness during recording. Same is desirable sometimes while playback. Vacuum tubes are known to add even order harmonics more. Ss is known to add odd harmonics more. if while playback we add excessive harmonics than needed than that affects sound negatively and creates imbalance in timing also i think can be realted to more distortion.
 
to me one of the main culprits for poor timing, or should I say PRaT has to do with bass hanging around for longer than it should, a common problem with with extended bass from large speakers in small rooms.
 
I have an empirical theory - that when a given system sounds right, it gets everything right - timing & dynamics, naturalness/ease, emotion (result of microtones and flow) - all of the musical properties in the track. Of course, limited by the overall capability of the system.

I thank our fellow forum member, Prem for bringing this concept to my conscious mind. Round of applause for him please.

It seems @prem is using the lockdown period to mentor quite a few of us in ‘listening properly’. It’s been an eye opener over the last one month for me on what to aim for in sound (and how to get it from the system). Thankfully, the path leads through decluttering (or the mind as well as in the system) instead of costly additions.
 
to me one of the main culprits for poor timing, or should I say PRaT has to do with bass hanging around for longer than it should, a common problem with with extended bass from large speakers in small rooms.
Timing is a count of how many beats can fit into a phrase. Normally it's to a count of 4. In Kishore kumar songs you don't have a beat going thuk thuk but he automatically spaces out each phrase to a count in his head. The way you space it out and yet fit in the phrase is timing. It's the very basics of singing or playing an instrument followed by modulation. The phrase Ye shyammmmm mastaniiii fits into 4 counts. 2 for Ye shyam and 2 for mastaniiii. That's why he pulls the words shyammmm so he can fit Ye shyammm in 2 counts and mastaniiii with some music in the other 2 and then switches to the next phrase once the 4 counts r up. It's the spacing between this counts that is timing. I don't think Kishore can be measured objectively. He was a master artist and sometimes could have played with timing too unknowingly between integration of phrases. That's the imperfection that makes the great. Maybe the winner of Indian idol can who is a trained singer can be measured.

This is how the song is timed. The transition to the next phrase or word is post the 4th count. Imagine a strobe light firing 4 times as a beat.

ये शाम
1..2..
मस्तान mastani
1..2..

मदहोश madhhosh
1..2..

किये जाए ciye jai
1..2..

मुझे डोर mujhe dor
1..2..

कोई खींचे Coe chiche
1..2..

तेरी और Teri aur
1..2..

लिए जाए Lei jai
1..2..

What you are referring to timing is about the software and my reference is to the hardware.

I think you are referring to the 'Tala' in the music composition. Tala is the term used in Indian classical music to refer to musical meter that is any rhythmic beat or strike that measures musical time. For more details about Tala here is a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)

Raga along with Tala has an array of melodic structures with musical motifs have the ability to colour the mind and affect the emotions of the audience. Trained musician can identify any Raga or Tala within seconds of the music rendering as its based on certain patterns and timings. So if you use Raga as a measurement tool then subjective timing of the music can be measured by identifying the Raga and Tala.

My reference of timing was in the hardware domain - where all the audible frequency arrive at the ears for processing at the same time. Its popular belief that single range driver do not have 'Timing' issues which is not true. I have measured not so accurate (so called ideal) step response in many of full-range drivers. Due the whizzer cone the high frequency arrive some ms earlier than the mids and the lows causing a timing issue. IMO a three way driver can produce an accurate step response by adding time constants and delay to certain band of frequency to make them arrive in time at the ear so that they are coherent.
 
What you are referring to timing is about the software and my reference is to the hardware.

I think you are referring to the 'Tala' in the music composition. Tala is the term used in Indian classical music to refer to musical meter that is any rhythmic beat or strike that measures musical time. For more details about Tala here is a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)

Raga along with Tala has an array of melodic structures with musical motifs have the ability to colour the mind and affect the emotions of the audience. Trained musician can identify any Raga or Tala within seconds of the music rendering as its based on certain patterns and timings. So if you use Raga as a measurement tool then subjective timing of the music can be measured by identifying the Raga and Tala.

My reference of timing was in the hardware domain - where all the audible frequency arrive at the ears for processing at the same time. Its popular belief that single range driver do not have 'Timing' issues which is not true. I have measured not so accurate (so called ideal) step response in many of full-range drivers. Due the whizzer cone the high frequency arrive some ms earlier than the mids and the lows causing a timing issue. IMO a three way driver can produce an accurate step response by adding time constants and delay to certain band of frequency to make them arrive in time at the ear so that they are coherent.

Well put Hari. That is the step response of the speaker but that also changes due to room reflections. Yes you are right I am referring to the concept of Tala or the metronome. That is what gets the foot tapping. In terms of hardware I believe that excessive use of feedback in amps causes timing issues which is why I've seen most simple tube amps time well. Do chip in here because you are good at this hardware bit.
 
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