4 CDP's

[ajay124]

@Manav
A minor problem with powering on/circuit breaker which I believe has been resolved and the amp should be winging it's way back 'home' soon.
@Arj
Yes,the colour is extremely important to me.The pleasure I derive from HiFi is based on auditory,visual and touch cues.May seem like a psychological quirk,but that's the way it is.
I think a major reason for wanting to upgrade from the Arcam is not 'auditory'(I am extremely happy with the sound) but more because of 'visual' and 'touch' factors.
A HiFi magazine once described Arcam's look as 'a modest piece of solid British ugliness - hideous'
I don't think Arcam is ugly or hideous,but it's colour and finish does not fully blend or match up to the clean,solid,beautifully engineered Bryston's.
Also the Bryston remote is a chunky,milled aluminium affair with three buttons-up,down,mute-Wonderful(maybe some folks would prefer something lighter and more complex,but I love it).
The Arcam remote is the usual grey,plasticky thing with 20-25 buttons,most of which I do not require or want on a remote.
I hesitated before buying the Vienna Acoustic's because they were in piano black finish and I wanted a maple/cherry finish to go with all the furniture in the room.
But I quickly made peace with the VA's,because of their sensational build quality,which would be hard to match by most speaker's at any price.
In fact if I was starting from scratch with only the Vienna Acoustic's I would not mind an Ayon CDP and Amp for a variety of crazy reasons-
All black set up
All Austrian set up
Both VA and Ayon are beautifully built
Both come from the land of my favorite composer's Mozart,Haydn,Mahler with Bach,Beethoven,Schubert,Handel,Brahms from across the border.
I believe that the spirit of these 'gods of music' permeates HiFi equipment coming out of Austria and makes it ideal for classical music.
I finally chose my speakers without an audition because they were called 'Beethoven' and they are indeed worthy enough to be called by that name.
Seems to be a practise in Austria.On a visit to Mozart's house in Salzburg I saw several shop selling everything from chocolates to women's lingerie with the 'brand name' Mozart

 

[arj]

...In fact if I was starting from scratch with only the Vienna Acoustic's I would not mind an Ayon CDP and Amp for a variety of crazy reasons-
All black set up
All Austrian set up
Both VA and Ayon are beautifully built
Both come from the land of my favorite composer's Mozart,Haydn,Mahler with Bach,Beethoven,Schubert,Handel,Brahms from across the border.
....

This may not be as crazy a reason as you think (OR maybe there are more people with the same crazy reasons ! )
eg: Somehow I ended up with all things japanese except for My speakers (surprisingly American) even my Speaker cable/Digital cable has a japanese designer .

If it is not too much of a financial constraint, getting your optimal setup right in 1 step is always far better an option long term than doing small changes. since you are already stuck with a colour constraint your options are limited, but changing from your Brystons may not be as difficult as you imagine it to be!
In that case an All electrocompaniet (CD + INt Amp) also just might be an option..although its not austrian but scandinavian

 

[ajay124]

I wish there was a HiFi Marg in one of the Indian metro's with all the major brands on one street,for new and used stuff at genuine prices.Would love to upgrade or even 'sidegrade' from Bryston to Electrocompaniet,Ayre, Ayon,Meridian,Accuphase,Esoteric,Krell,Macintosh,Pass Labs,Plinius,Audio Research,Conrad Johnson,Jadis....a new set up every year.Ditto with speakers.Starting with one of the older Sonus Faber's designed by Franco Serblin and progressing to the Ktema.
Franco Serblin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Big9XOeKy2U

 

[suri]

since you are already stuck with a colour constraint your options are limited

there is a way - clad the amplifier casing (pre-amp, cdp, non-class A monoblocks) with 1.5 mm real teak - ventilating apertures on the case must be duplicated on the sheet of wood- -

the wood is then stained black (with wood color) after adequate preparation - then multiple layers of clear lacquer are applied for a desirable finish- fixing with a rubber based glue

voila! - ajay124 now has all-black cases for his equipment - and the front fascia of the amplifier can be expertly finished by those (women) who do glass paintings - could add ajay124's family crest too. ( raised relief in ruby-red would nicely offset the black)

 

[ajay124]

@suri
Your DIY instincts seem to be in good form!
Anybody with experience in buying through Audiogon?Would appreciate all inputs.
Ayre CX-7e For Sale | AudiogoN
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1296412742

 

[arj]

I would not recommend buying Used CDPs from people you do not know . unlike amps/preamps and speakers.. cables are always better used.

 

[ajay124]

Another CD player added to the mix.And this one looks like a great option.
SA-50 | Audio Players | Esoteric Company
The Esoteric SA-50 hooked up with the Bryston 3B SST with balanced interconnects.
Since it has a digital preamp which can directly be connected to the power amp,
everything else,the Arcam CDP,the Bryston Pre as well as the Transparent IC's become redundant.
Shorter,sweeter and in all likelihood better.
This is something I'm seriously going to work on.All inputs,opinions would be appreciated.
@Prem,Dinyaar
I hope you will shine a light on this scenario

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay 124

I do not know how good the digital preamp in the Esoteric SA50 is? I had the the Esoteric P70 D70 earlier. That DAC also had a preamp with a digital volume control. Going direct sounded more transparent but the drive was missing. I always used a preamp with it.

 

[Dr.Bass]

When is digital going to get the soul of music?
(My personal take,which I would like to share.Please do not misconstrue it as passing judgement on the views/tastes of anybody else.There are hundreds of boats on the river of music.Mine is just one of them.)

I have heard neither HiFi Vinyl nor any Tube Amp barring Lyrita.The Lyrita sound certainly had something 'pure'.I would say it had 'soul'.I would love to audition good Vinyl and Tube rigs.
But my personal view is that when we use words like 'soul',we have different interpretations in mind.Quite often audiophiles use words simply because other folks on forums or the 'pandits' in Stereophile and other HiFi sites are using them.I believe it is not neccessary to use high sounding words in order to appear to be a connoisseur or someone in the know.What we post should come from the heart and should be within the realms of what we have actually learnt,rather than what we are posing to have learnt.
'Soul' for me is about the music I listen to,not the equipment.For me only classical music has soul.Jazz,maybe a little bit,if it is from the period 1925-1965.Rock and most other genres-mostly dead and without a soul.No HiFi rig can bring them back to life.Phil Ochs is the 'sole/soul' exception for me.Sometimes I feel that I like his music better than anything I have ever heard.
Hindustani Classical is on par with Western Classical.But it is not my cup of tea.Having been 'moulded' by a convent school and western books,music and films I prefer classical music from Europe.The 'ARTS' we imbibe have a powerful influence on our imagination.'Soft Power' as Shashi Tharoor recently said,in a speech link posted in the General Lounge.
At the moment I have around 150 + CD's of Jazz,Rock and Soul.I still listen to them,sometimes with great pleasure,but always with the conviction,that I'm losing precious hours which could have gone into listening to Bach,Beethoven,Mozart and the rest of the composers.My present collection of around 300 western classical CD's is about 75% complete.I intend to locate and buy another 100 CD's by composers that I don't have at the moment.That would be the end of buying CD's.I don't believe there is any music after this music or before this music.These 400 CD's are what I will be listening to,for the rest of my life.After 35 years of a nomadic musical journey,this is where I will be pitching my tent and settling down.
I am completely satisfied with the Solid State set up I have.Together with my CD's,it is like a small piece of 'heaven'.
(At the moment the Bryston power amp is in the 'sick bay' and is being 'looked after'.Have no idea when I will get my piece of 'heaven' back....

Good post Ajay !!

I think even the audiogon discussion is all about the soul of "music" not the "equipments", as you can see the topic says "When is digital going to get the soul of music?". And, if you read the posts in that thread, most people who think digital lacks something fundamental compared to analog are guys who are deep into music. They just could not enjoy their favorite artists to the fullest when they played through digital media. These are the guys ready to take all the hassles related to LP playback for the sake of purer music in their room. On the other hand most people (not all) who prefer their digital rig do it because it is modern, convenient, cheap, clean and plenty of software. At least this is what I have noticed in that thread.

 

[ajay124]

Good post Ajay !!

I think even the audiogon discussion is all about the soul of "music" not the "equipments", as you can see the topic says "When is digital going to get the soul of music?". And, if you read the posts in that thread, most people who think digital lacks something fundamental compared to analog are guys who are deep into music. They just could not enjoy their favorite artists to the fullest when they played through digital media. These are the guys ready to take all the hassles related to LP playback for the sake of purer music in their room. On the other hand most people (not all) who prefer their digital rig do it because it is modern, convenient, cheap, clean and plenty of software. At least this is what I have noticed in that thread.

@Dr.Bass
There are something like 600 posts on that thread and I went through the first 50 or so.
Opinion seems to be divided and there are plenty of defender's of the digital domain
But you are correct that most of the guys are talking about music and not about the equipment.G-O-O-D!
Because if you take music out of an audiophile debate all that is left is aimless chatter and nitpicking.
Don't know whether digital or analogue has more soul,but I'm convinced that people who are indifferent to music
(and that would include at least 50% of the people I have met) really have no soul.
But it would be nice to have a digital v/s analogue thread.I hope you will flag one off soon.
There is a dearth of good two channel threads on the forum.
It would be nice if the 'old and wise' men on the forum
become more active and launch a few interesting threads and debates

 

[arj]

While i understand the intent of the above, I believe the "Soul" depends on the listener the most. I have seen people go into raptures with music from very (in our lofty standards) Basic setups and Mp3s.

Unfortunately all of us lie the theory of relativity ! I was so happy and enjoyed the soul (My interpretation) of music with a very basic entry system untill i heard a colleagues setup based on a Klipschhorn and Scott SET..then that music seemed Insipid. ...and so on and so forth it goes !

 

[ajay124]

Would the variable output from the Esoteric SA-50 be a match for the Bryston BP6 Pre?
The only way I could bring the Esoteric CDP even within sniffing distance of my budget would be by disposing of both the Arcam CD192 and the Bryston BP6.The attraction of adding an Esoteric CDP and removing one unit and one IC from the chain is immense.Perhaps doing away with Single ended RCA and using a Balanced IC at a later date.
Would the Esoteric Pre/Attenuator take the sound to a new level or would removing BP6 from the chain,destroy the Bryston magic?Best option would be to spend a day at Boomarang,where an AB would be possible.On the Thiels.And the Avalon's.And also audition Cardas/Kimber/VDH single ended and balanced IC's (whatever is there)in the bargain!Seems like a trip to Mumbai is on the cards in 2011.

Extract from the six moon review on the Esoteric website commenting on the Pre/Direct dilemma....(Highlights by me)

"Audiophiles who have extensively experimented with direct drive vs.active preamps know that nearly invariably,direct drive suffers bleached colors and dynamics by comparison.Exceptions like the Audio Aero or Ancient Audio machinesmy Polish Lektor Prime runs a 6H30-based fully balanced output stage with a max output of 7V and adds an analog input to really be a CDP/miniature preamp in one enclosureare quite rare.Esoteric's C-03 preamp even in "passive" no-gain mode still runs the signal between +/-38V rails to propose rather different drive potential than one would expect from a CD player's output stage.Contrary to popular lore which equates max resolution with a minimum of complexity,the higher control an active preamp exerts over the input stage of an amplifier can actually increase detail perception and thus,subjective resolution. Would the SA-50 be an exception to such generalized but oft confirmed observations?
Not really.In the showdown against the 0-gain C-03, it was admittedly a lot closer than anticipated even though the 'indirect' route hung just a bit more body on the performers.But once the C-03 was set to 12dB of gain (never mind 24dB),the game was over on the Triangle speakers which excel at speed and resolution yet demand an infusion of physicality from the preceding electronics.The advantages of acough$10,000 additional preamp were undeniable.On something voiced far meatier and buxom like my Zu Essence speakers however which do not ask for the caloric expander action of preamp gain,the direct route off the SA-50 isn't mere temporary convenience feature to make sound while you save up for a preamp. In such a context, it could well become the final solution.Additional consideration will be speaker sensitivity so as to not listen too deep in digital attenuation mode*. The ultimate not usefulness (it is very useful) but performance legitimacy of the digital 32-bit attenuator thus depends on system context, particularly the degree of fleshiness which the components must provide to accommodate whatever the speakers bring to the table. If the final sound is too lean and 'electrostatish',you'll want a dedicated active preamplifier.

 

[prem]

You will have to hear it and decide. Very difficult to say if the SA50 is a match for the Bryston pre.

First and foremost, I suggest you hear any Esoteric cdp and see if you like the sound. The Esoteric is extremely detailed, highly resolving and very neutral. There is absolutely no sugar coating. It can show up flaws in the recordings as well as your system.

If you come to Mumbai you can hear the Esoteric in two very different set ups. Mine is a tube amp and single driver. Dinyaars is a solid state and dynamic speaker combo. Also the X03 SE which i own is a little different sounding from the X05, primarily because of a different dac topology.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Another CD player added to the mix.And this one looks like a great option.
SA-50 | Audio Players | Esoteric Company
The Esoteric SA-50 hooked up with the Bryston 3B SST with balanced interconnects.
Since it has a digital preamp which can directly be connected to the power amp,
everything else,the Arcam CDP,the Bryston Pre as well as the Transparent IC's become redundant.
Shorter,sweeter and in all likelihood better.
This is something I'm seriously going to work on.All inputs,opinions would be appreciated.
@Prem,Dinyaar
I hope you will shine a light on this scenario

If you ask me it is a complete no no.
Preamp is not just volume control. They perform much more important task of amplifying very low level signal to provide the power amp with right amount of signal which the power was "made" to amplify in the first place. Where a microscope is required a telescope will not work. Both are built to a purpose. People do by pass active preamps and go with passives but it is mostly cost cutting IMO. High quality active preamps are expensive, one cannot imagine to get a decent active preamp for say $500 but a good quality passive is well within the reach. In those situations it may make sense to buy a passive since it is anyway about choosing between two compromises, choose the one which sounds better to your ears.

Coming over to preamps inside CDPs. I have heard at least 5 different CDPs with volume control facility. Interestingly, every one of this brand advertises that using this CDP would enable one to remove the preamp and attain "purity". And I hate to read such claims when it comes from prestigious companies like Wadia and Ayon. These companies very well know that their products are going to be used in high quality setups and misguiding their buyers should be the last thing on their mind. Anyway, there are typically two kinds of volume control that comes with a CDP:

1. Digital volume control : This is anyway an unacceptable approach and has been dismissed by most audiophiles who have done their research. I have heard both Wadia and Ayon CD2 with their volume control in action and all I can say is they are disastrous to the sound quality. Never ever use them!! Leave it turned all the way up all the time and use your regular preamp. Using this volume control can make a system sound like it is playing low bit rate mp3.

2. Analog volume control : If the volume control in the CDP is in analog domain, there are two major possibilities, either it is a passive volume control which is mostly resistor based or there is a cheap active preamp circuitry inside. Either way they are avoidable if you have the money to buy a decent preamp. The only exception is, if your amplifier manufacturer recommends passive preamp then you have an option of trying it. I would still say, go and buy a high quality passive preamp (if you have to go passive) from a company like Music first Audio and settle down. However I would have to caution you that passive preamp has to be tried in your system and compared well with an active preamp to understand if you really like the presentation of passive preamp.

In any case an external preamp is highly highly required/recommended.
Ajay, in your case I would never recommend going passive simply because AFAIK Brystons like active preamps, that too the preamp should match the spec required by Bryston amps. Check it out...and forget CDP internal volume control, I request.

 

[odyssey]

I think Dr Bass has not posted the entire information and what he has given is incomplete and hence a bit misleading -

What he has said about active preamps is correct in that they are there to take low level signals and condition/prepare them for input to an amplification device. The main aspect of this is to give it proper drive. impedance matching and ensuring a flat signal over the frequency range is primarily what the active preamp does. A passive preamp on the other hand with the exception of a TVC absolutely does nothing in terms of impedance matching, in fact it makes it much worse with the best impedance ratio typically achieved at max volume (zero attenuation). If the the output imp of the source is not significantly lower than the input imp of the sink (amp) then there is a non-trivial amount of loss between the two. The loss in itself is not a big deal as one typically has enough gain anyway, what also happens (a result of high Capacitance cables or any other inductances in the path) the loss is not even in the frequency range. The 10:1 impedance matching rule comes from here, there is nothing magical about the ratio of 10:1, its just a guideline, in that aspect, the more the better. Does all this matter - one can debate it to end however in most rooms where frequency response is off by easily 10dB or more across the range...I dont know...you decide

While, i am not familiar with Wadia, I am familiar with Ayon. The volume control is done in the digital domain however not in 16 bit but in 24 bit, I very much doubt any golden ears can hear a loss of resolution. The question is - do mid level CDPs like the CD-1s and CD-2s have all the front end circuitry that an equivalently priced preamp has? I wouldnt think so, surely there must be some compromise there, they cant have the same at this price range, so the easier thing to do is to probably increase the max voltage to provide sufficient drive, this is what many manufacturers do. While Ajay you already have a preamp, this statement from the manufacturers has to be taken in the light of someone building a system - so if one has a Wadia/Ayon with digital pre e.g. CD-2s and some amp, say both these are about $5K, we are already at $10K. If one does not have a second source, the question is am I to spend $5K on a good preamp or should I spend the $5k on perhaps a better CDP like the Ayon CD-5s or a better amp or a better speaker, or perhaps not spend it at all..? In this example alone, it may turn out that $5K spent more on the speaker or perhaps some on treatment will give a better return in terms of my musical experience.

Talking about purity of the signal, a passive is likely to be more purer when passing the source signal along than an active. This is no different than Himalayan water being purer when drunk off a glacier at the Himalayas rather than running pipes and other contraptions and collecting it finally in a bottle. For that same reason, the Ayon (or a Wadia or other such players) are likely to be more "purer" for lack of a better word. I am not comparing purity with drive, they are two different aspects. A DAC with no output drive devices like an op-amp or class A stages are described as purer, that does not mean they have to sound "better" in the overall chain as now more care needs to be taken to ensure that proper matching and selection of components is done.

Like Dr. Bass I too believe that a good source can do wonders and is extremely important. Since you have a preamp already, I am not sure what way you should go, however if you didnt and had the money to spend a better CDP in a particular vendor/line-up than splitting the money down to a CDP and a pre are definitely worth pursuing.

cheers

 

[Dr.Bass]

Odyssey has put forward some further details in technical matching of CDP, preamp and power amp. Yes, there is more to it that an active preamp does than just amplify low level signal and at the end all these things does matter when it comes to the final sound quality. Passive is purer in terms of less being less processed but the fact that most power amps NEED an active preamp to sound/drive the way they were intended to, makes it a critical component to have. That is also the reason why high quality active preamp (which can retain the purity of the passive and still provide the drive) are very expensive.

Coming over to the digital volume control, I only wrote what I have experienced. I have described two occasions specifically because they are supposed to be high quality design that allows one to replace his existing preamp (which will not be slouch either considering that the person is buying a Wadia). In both these systems there was a decent active preamp in place and we just did a simple A/B test. First we kept the CDP volume at max position and used the active preamp's volume control to control the loudness and then we reversed the process, we kept the active preamp's volume at max and used the CDP volume to control the loudness. The difference was just not comparable, simply Day and Night. With the CDP doing the volume control job the loss in information was significant, microdynamics were muted. At lower volumes it almost sounded like we had put a blanket on the speakers.

We also tried a third configuration, we removed active preamp completely from the Wadia system and played directly from CDP to power amp and while it was cleaner than case2, the drive and energy was lacking. It was still lacking resolution but not as much as case 2. We missed the impact though.

The important thing to note is, as you lower the volume on CDP the lack of information increases and at one point it is just not worth it.

I dont know if there is any configuration that Odyssey has been able to experiment where the CDP internal volume control doesnt show any signs of deterioration with decrease in volume, but I could not make it work.

 

[captrajesh]

Sorry to butt in with a query in a discussion involving the likes of Wadia and Ayon etc but thought it would be apt to pose it nevertheless considering that the process is similar.

I'm using a Marantz CD6003 as source and have done a A/B involving two amps; a vintage Luxman L80V SS Integrated Amp and Class D Audio Power Amp.
In case of the Luxman, volume control is built into the amp. I got a pretty decent sound using Accoustic Portrait Bookshelf speakers made of Vifa Drivers.
However, since the volume control in the latter case is achieved by controlling gain from the CDP by means of a Pot, though the details in the mid-range have more texture and are more perceptible like that of a tube amp, I've noticed that there is certain amount of muddying.

Hoping that some of our more knowledgeable and illustrious members would comment.

 

[ajay124]

Bypassing the Pre Amp.
AudiogoN Forums: connectng CD player directly to amp, good or bad?

 

[arj]

from what i could learn about CDPs with built in pre's..they are not meant for making huge changes in volume. the idea is to match the gain of the CD out such that you get your optimal volume at around 75-80% level and then use the volume control only for finer adjustments.

there is bound to be some loss in resolution if you get the volume down really low whether digital or Analogue (unless it is TVC based)..in the end ..as Odyssey and Dr bass have mentioned, there is a limit to the quality of Preamp which can be built in for the price

 

[odyssey]

You are comparing two different amps in this situation, why dont you instead use the external POT to experiment with the Luxman to see whether the POT is noticeably degrading the sound? There are too many variable to guess whats going on - there could be a problem in POT impedance mismatch to the power amp, one amp is far better than the other, the quality of the POT is bad, etc

cheers

Sorry to butt in with a query in a discussion involving the likes of Wadia and Ayon etc but thought it would be apt to pose it nevertheless considering that the process is similar.

I'm using a Marantz CD6003 as source and have done a A/B involving two amps; a vintage Luxman L80V SS Integrated Amp and Class D Audio Power Amp.
In case of the Luxman, volume control is built into the amp. I got a pretty decent sound using Accoustic Portrait Bookshelf speakers made of Vifa Drivers.
However, since the volume control in the latter case is achieved by controlling gain from the CDP by means of a Pot, though the details in the mid-range have more texture and are more perceptible like that of a tube amp, I've noticed that there is certain amount of muddling.

Hoping that some of our more knowledgeable and illustrious members would comment.