4 CDP's

[odyssey]

there is bound to be some loss in resolution if you get the volume down really low whether digital or Analogue (unless it is TVC based)..in the end ..as Odyssey and Dr bass have mentioned, there is a limit to the quality of Preamp which can be built in for the price

interesting....why do you think this is? Is it really resolution you are referring to or more an imbalance in frequencies (e.g. typically bass is much lower at lower volumes - one tends to hear the mid and higher freq more) ...is this what you are referring to?

cheers

 

[arj]

hi Sridhar,
My guess is its to do with micro dynamics which get lost at lower volumes. while the analogue domain can be explained with the increased resistance, I am not too sure about the digital domain..but in the end to reduce the volume the input into the amp has to be lower with some sort of a modulation (amplitude ?) ...and that, IMHO is bound to have some impact on resolution.

I believe the Wadias come in with a gain control just for this "matching" with the power amp .

 

[odyssey]

I have described two occasions specifically because they are supposed to be high quality design that allows one to replace his existing preamp (which will not be slouch either considering that the person is buying a Wadia). In both these systems there was a decent active preamp in place and we just did a simple A/B test. First we kept the CDP volume at max position and used the active preamp's volume control to control the loudness and then we reversed the process, we kept the active preamp's volume at max and used the CDP volume to control the loudness. The difference was just not comparable, simply Day and Night. With the CDP doing the volume control job the loss in information was significant, microdynamics were muted. At lower volumes it almost sounded like we had put a blanket on the speakers.

As you stated, this is not the right test as the preamp was still in the equation. Which pre and power is this?

We also tried a third configuration, we removed active preamp completely from the Wadia system and played directly from CDP to power amp and while it was cleaner than case2, the drive and energy was lacking. It was still lacking resolution but not as much as case 2. We missed the impact though.

The important thing to note is, as you lower the volume on CDP the lack of information increases and at one point it is just not worth it.

I dont know if there is any configuration that Odyssey has been able to experiment where the CDP internal volume control doesnt show any signs of deterioration with decrease in volume, but I could not make it work

I doubt resolution would have gone down, what might have happened is that the net result of the CDP connected directly to the amp (as Arj put it in another post), the balance of sound/fullness, decay, etc would have come down. If this is what you are referring to, then it has to do with the active drive the active pre is offering which is missing in this case. If volume control has been implemented in 24 bits or higher, then playing around with a few bits at that step size is not going to make an audible difference (for academic purposes, yes it does make a difference), remember that every bit adds 6dB of SNR, so going down to a 16 bit - 96dB SNR is itself quite high and the redbook limit.
In what limited tests I have done, the Ayon CDP direct to an Ayon amp (high Z) works beautifully, to a low Z amp, not as well, but this has nothing to do with digital volume control or analog vol control.

.

 

[Dr.Bass]

As you stated, this is not the right test as the preamp was still in the equation. Which pre and power is this?

@Odyseey,
The Wadia setup was with a Krell Pre-power. The power amp if I remember well was a KAV-3250, I dont remember the preamp model

The Ayon setup was at ARN, Ayon CD2S feeding directly to a Symphonic Line RG10 integrated amp. You were not there that day in the showroom so I was playing around with different settings on the Ayon and SL amp.

 

[captrajesh]

Effect of Pot on SQ

You are comparing two different amps in this situation, why dont you instead use the external POT to experiment with the Luxman to see whether the POT is noticeably degrading the sound?

Thank you for suggestion. Trying to mentally figure out the effect this arrangement would have on SQ.

there could be a problem in POT impedance mismatch to the power amp

Thank you. I'll check this out.

one amp is far better than the other

I wish it was such a open and shut case but I believe is actually much trickier to figure out. Wish I was in Bangalore; I could have provided you first hand info.:sad:

 

[odyssey]

@Odyseey,
The Wadia setup was with a Krell Pre-power. The power amp if I remember well was a KAV-3250, I dont remember the preamp model

The Ayon setup was at ARN, Ayon CD2S feeding directly to a Symphonic Line RG10 integrated amp. You were not there that day in the showroom so I was playing around with different settings on the Ayon and SL amp.

The CD2s is meant to feed directly into an integrated, no other component is needed in between. Whatever you did with the Ayon at ARN, its the wrong experiment to lead to that conclusion as you did not bypass the preamp stage, so you cant determine how the sound will be through digital vol directly to an amp (not int amp). Furthermore, if you heard it through the CS3 as you told me you did that day, its also a speaker you are hearing for the first time, the entire setup was with first time equipment in a first time place...

I cant say what you did with the Krell but if its similar then its once again the wrong experiment.

cheers

 

[odyssey]

hi Sridhar,
My guess is its to do with micro dynamics which get lost at lower volumes. while the analogue domain can be explained with the increased resistance, I am not too sure about the digital domain..but in the end to reduce the volume the input into the amp has to be lower with some sort of a modulation (amplitude ?) ...and that, IMHO is bound to have some impact on resolution.

I believe the Wadias come in with a gain control just for this "matching" with the power amp .

I did a quick google on wadia with digital vol control. you can search for the stereophile review where JA measures the performance of the Digital vol control. Mind you this was almost 10 years back with a 21 bit control (24 bit is even better by 18 dB margin). JA clearly states that there is NO LOSS IN RESOLUTION down to a certain point after which there is a measureable loss though very small. The amount of attenuation though that one has to go down by is at or more than most active preamps provide, so its really a non-issue beyond that. This article is a worthwhile read.

cheers

 

[prem]

I have used the Esoteric P70 D70 direct into JC1 monoblocs. It sounded very good to me. Never felt the need for a preamp. But this was not the case when i went SET. A preamp was required in the middle for the drive. Also with the Rethms a little added flesh helps. But even with the SET going direct sounded more transparent. I could not hear any loss in resolution at low volumes. Before the Esoteric i had the EAD 9000 Pro DAC. With that dac, going direct was the best. But in that dac the volume control was in the analog domain.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I did a quick google on wadia with digital vol control. you can search for the stereophile review where JA measures the performance of the Digital vol control. Mind you this was almost 10 years back with a 21 bit control (24 bit is even better by 18 dB margin). JA clearly states that there is NO LOSS IN RESOLUTION down to a certain point after which there is a measureable loss though very small. The amount of attenuation though that one has to go down by is at or more than most active preamps provide, so its really a non-issue beyond that. This article is a worthwhile read.

cheers

Well, that is the reason so many believed that Wadia is the way to to go when one is trying to bypass his preamp. But if you read what many Wadia users have to say (in the long run), there is a clear loss of resolution and that active preamp is still the way to go. I myself felt the same in the Wadia setup.

I might not have done it the right way with Ayon, I agree, I would like to listen to it again the right way. But I dont think it matters if I am listening to a "first time" setup as long as I am listening to a music which I know well and using the same music two evaluate with and without active preamp.

 

[ajay124]

Although, I am not considering Quad,I would be happy to know the impressions of an AB done with the Quad CDP2 as a source.How do the fixed and variable output's compare with each other?
A Quad CDP2xQuad 909
B Quad CDP2xQuad 99xQuad 909
@Sridhar
Perhaps on your own,or with interested forum members,you could do an audition of Ayon CD2S with a Stratos power amp,with and without a Pre.It would flesh out the points you are making.I know asking this is an imposition,but it would shed more light on the direct v/s pre issue.If a preamp can be removed from the chain,many more audiophiles would be able to afford an Ayon CD2S.What is the price of this CDP?

 

[ajay124]

Useful website for product information and pricing history.
Alphabetical List of Audio Manufacturers - Group A

 

[arj]

Ayon results would be better explained by Sridhar..But Quads volume control is a strict No No...except for minor adjustments

 

[ajay124]

Sometimes out of the darkness a ray of light cometh,which illuminates everything.A moment of perfect clarity when doubt and confusion is banished and we momentarily bask in the blessed sunshine of knowledge.
No,this is not a religious discourse but the description of an Audiophile Moment
Earlier I had begun an amplifier thread,with the general idea of resolving my confusion about Musical Fidelity amplification.That thread peaked for me,when it suddenly hit me,that the amp I was looking for was a Bryston Pre-Power.From that moment to actually finding the Bryston's,at a price I could stretch my budget to,was a short and happy journey.My Dynaudio speaker thread peaked with the purchase of Vienna Acoustic's!
And now,out of the blue,I think my cdp journey is reaching closure.I am not placing an immediate order,but I feel strongly that this is it!None of the four that I began this thread with.But a fifth,which evolved from all the contributions to this thread,for which I am truly grateful.....
Without prolonging the suspense
Esoteric SA 10!
I am not convinced by the 'direct' capabilities of cdp's with built in pre's and attenuator's.I really like the Bryston BP6 Pre,and deep down I know that I don't want to part with it.At 3500 dollars,the SA 10 is considerably cheaper than the SA50.O.K.No preamp,no up sampling,no filters or conversions,no USB.Just a plain vanilla,honest to god,two channel cdp.The SA10 is just the kind of minimalist product that I really like.Sure the SA 50 has a lot of modern features built into it.Lots of stuff in the mode menu to play around with.But I would prefer to place a cd in the tray,press load and get on with the music without further ado.Build quality on the SA 10 seems to be very good,it has the VOSP transport developed by Esoteric,which for me is the essential feature,and personally I even find the simple elegant design,better looking than the design of the SA 50.Budget of course is the prime consideration.Always is!But I think in the New Year,I will be initiating the process of moving on from Arcam CD192 to the EsotericSA10
http://esoteric.teac.com/resources/gallery/sa-10/sa-10-1.jpg

 

[prem]

Are you planning to hear it and buy or are you going to buy blind?

 

[Spidey]

Sometimes out of the darkness a ray of light cometh,which illuminates everything.A moment of perfect clarity when doubt and confusion is banished and we momentarily bask in the blessed sunshine of knowledge.
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Dear ajay


I am fascinated and astounded by the search u conducted for each of ur components and the start and end points were equally enjoyable.

Keep it up,


Regards

 

[ajay124]

If the price is right,both for the SA10 and the resale of my Arcam,I am willing to go blind
I'm confident that the Esoteric sound won't let me down!
I've already mailed cousin's in Singapore and U.K. to find out the best price.
The Indian distributor is listed as:
FAR EAST ELECTRONICS MANUFACTURING COMPANY(TEMPORARY)
Phone number mentioned is not in operation.Any inputs?

 

[malvai]

Boomerang is the India dealer. speak with Grattan.

 

[prem]

Far East is the India distributor. If i am not mistaken they are the Shemaroo guys.

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay 124

I would still strongly recommend that you hear an Esoteric first. Do not go by reviews.

 

[ajay124]

@manav
I have been in touch with Grattan,since he suggested the SA50 to me a few days back.He says that the digital pre built into the SA50 is excellent,so if someone wants to economise,a direct hook up with a power amp is a good option.
But he seemed a little surprised when I pulled SA10 out of the blue today.He did not seem very convinced that I was doing the right thing.I know that I should at least audition the SA50 before deciding.But I want to retain the Bryston BP6 Pre,therefore the only Esoteric I can ramp up my budget to is the SA10.I believe that going higher up the Esoteric chain would give diminshing returns for every rupee spent.If budget is not a consideration then certainly the XO5 or the XO3 SE are better options.I'm willing to go by my instincts and buy SA10 without an audition.But only if the price is right.
@Prem
Do you have the phone number of the Far Eastern guys?