4 CDP's

[arj]

I am reasonably sure that CDP's will be 'history' in less than five years(many manufacturer's and reviewer's are already penning obituaries)
but I'm still contemplating upgrading my CDP.Because I'm not a techie
.........

Whew!Seems like trying to climb Mt.Everest without oxygen

I am also in a similar boat. am sure that the CDP will die
But the problem is that today there are too many products and too little understanding. I guess waiting for it all to "Calm down" is wiser

 

[ajay124]

Sir,
I do not understand it either;
However, when I put a CD into a CD Player & play the same song [ripped] through the same DAC, the computer sounds 'better'
So, the name of the game is to go in the direction which is 'better' !!!

I do not have a clue about bit rates & sampling frequencies - asio / wasapi etc. etc.
I do not care about that.
It is the true [truer] representation of music that I care about & the computer is the way to go. I have done more than enough test & only then taken the plunge.... Trust me I have a lot to loose - with 5 K ++ CD's with me, I have moved - 100 % to Computer - ARJ knows, he was over a few weeks back....

I believe you! And I feel you are one of the early movers in the right direction.
Being a fan of Apple,I have been reading up on their incredible rise to the second biggest,very soon,
the biggest corporation in the world,I feel the future belongs to iTunes and its clones.
And to a source without a transport.

 

[arj]

....ARJ knows, he was over a few weeks back....

This was an Experience to relish..anyone in mumbai, you Must hear this setup. It is not about the fantastic equipment but about how placement can be optimised. just quoting what i had posted somewhere else on Shantis setup

setup breaks most placement rules in audio. Speakers which if they were an inch closer to the listener would be called headphones, but 7 feet away from each other and less than 2 inches from the back wall. subs placed together looking in different directions beyond the equipment rack etc etc.
But when they play, they disappear and if you close your eyes you would actually think you are in a large hall with a musical stage laid far beyond with pinpoint imaging (in his neighbours room !). tones are right which still sounded very lifelike with dynamics as well as the delicacy required ( i do have a personal prference for warmer vocals but i know that is a colouration that is a personal liking). The subs are integerated so well that you dont even realise they are there untill switched off.
..and i cannot believe the sense of realism which a dedicated computer audio can give considering these are regular Flac/Wavs from a regular CD drive.

when you see and hear this setup you can feel the years of effort that has been put in in getting everything so right and squeezing the very best out of the setup ! it is sheer mastery in audio setup

Gives me a lot of hope on what can be done on my room/setup without upgrading anything ! (although how he managed it is still unbelievable to me..as though he is showing me one system and i am hearing another in another room)

 

[arj]

I believe you! And I feel you are one of the early movers in the right direction.
Being a fan of Apple,I have been reading up on their incredible rise to the second biggest,very soon,
the biggest corporation in the world,I feel the future belongs to iTunes and its clones.
And to a source without a transport.

Ajay123..once i get the right way on moving ahead with computer audio, my transport will most probably be a macmini running windows 7 (with a mac OS you are limited to wav/aiff/ALAC.
what Shanti has done with his PC transport is very interesting. It has No keyboard/mouse/screen. He just remote logs in to the computer and plays his stuff from either a laptop or his iphone !

 

[bhagwan]

Ajay123..once i get the right way on moving ahead with computer audio, my transport will most probably be a macmini running windows 7 (with a mac OS you are limited to wav/aiff/ALAC.
what Shanti has done with his PC transport is very interesting. It has No keyboard/mouse/screen. He just remote logs in to the computer and plays his stuff from either a laptop or his iphone !

To 'pick up' from what arj said;
I could actually keep the 'server' in a different room & it would not have to be seen.
I do not need a screen / mouse / keyboard.
It is run in a 'remote' manner.
Actually, I will be buying a 16" touch screen [soon] and use it like a Meridian Soolloos. Just will not like the 3 wires, but then the touch screen joy will be there to be had.....

Currently working on Win 7 with J River - having set up issues....
How I wish I was a bit more 'techie' !!!

 

[ajay124]

An impulsive gamble that seems to have paid of.
A couple of days ago on a whim,I traded in my 3B SST and moved on to a 4B SST.Spent a couple of days lost in confusion,because the 3B was doing everything right,so there was little rationale behind my action.But a 4B SST happened to be available and a couple of days ago I had read comments somewhere which had lodged in my mind....that the 4B SST was not only Bryston's best selling amp,but possibly their best.
Followed the courier updates on their website,reached their office around the time the truck did and picked up the amp.By late afternoon the 4B SST had been plugged in....
The first 45 minutes were truly a disaster.The amp did not even sound like a Bryston.A lifeless midrange,booming and hollow bass,a dull as dishwater top end.The sound belonged to a mediocre budget amp.Checked all the settings at the back of the amp,switched from Alan Parson to Dire Straits...BAD!Mark Knopfler sounded drunk,slurred vocals,pedestrian music...Communique is an album I have always enjoyed.Something was terribly wrong.Switched to
Mozart's Flute Concerto's.Mercifully after 15 minutes or so the source/pre/power started opening up.I had cleaned all the IC's and cable contact points with a single malt(highland not islay),adjusted the BP6 which was a little unstable in the rack,even moved the speaker's around a bit.Gradually the magic started happening and I laughed with relief.Like Salieri in Amadeus I felt that this was a music I had never heard before.A music so divine that it could only have been composed by God.With the 3B SST there was a touch of harshness which marred the beauty of Mozart's music.I accepted it as a neccessary fall out of a solid state amp.Win some,lose some!But today that harshness was gone,replaced by an infinite sweetness that I would not earlier have associated with a solid state amp.A sweetness I assumed that a great tube amp may possibly have.From that moment on have been spinning CD's-Bach,Brahms,Chopin,Beethoven,Julian Bream and at the moment my reference CD,Mahler's second symphony.After 10 days without music,it seems like paradise regained.Building up towards a marathon session,7 hours gone and at least 5 more to go! Polished off a bottle of Chardonnay to celebrate the 4B.Moving on to Cognac with hot water.After all it's a special day in a special year dedicated to the pursuit of a good two channel system!The cdp upgrade will take a little longer but for the moment,the night is young and I have a stack full of CD's to play....

 

[arj]

your post was so good to read. can identify with the first few minutes of sheer hell when a gamble seems to have turned sour and then magically it all falls into place with simple and practical changes !

I had that experience with a simple power re generator which provides 100W of pure sinewave output for sources...took my system to a completely new level in terms of timing and sheer texture /tone to music !. but the first 30 minutes was extremely nervy as it first failed to switch on then then the music was Muddy....all due to a bad power chord !

Cheers Mate.. and enjoy the music


Note : Single Malt for cleaning contacts ..not matter how heady it may sound ? is that really a good idea.....isnt there residue ?

 

[ajay124]

@arj
For cleaning,the immediate options at hand were an aftershave and a single malt.I felt scottish waters were a better bet.Just a few drops on a soft lint free cloth(the one I use for cleaning my specs).There was a bit of dirt,and after cleaning I dried them with another soft cloth,not that there was any residue in the first place.The major reason for the initial glitch was that the BP6 was not perched properly in the rack.Must have shifted when I placed the 4B SST (Heavy!).Also because the outside temp in the evening is around 5 degrees.Maybe the cdp/pre/power which had not been powered on for a few days,needed those 45 minute to warm up.
I have just got up.Sipping tea with a Bhimsen Joshi live recording.My wife says that orchestral music is sounding better than vocals with the 4B SST.Possibly a live recording made in Indian conditions cannot compete with a recording made in the Wiener Philharmoniker.But even Mark Knopfler did not sound good yeasterday.Today I will be playing Phil Ochs,Dylan,Neil Young,James Brown,Ella Fitzgerald,Ray Charles...My speakers are still placed in the 3B SST positions.Gradually I will move them around a bit to see how they are handling the additional information,power.What I'm happy about is that the source/amps/speakers/cables seem to have receded into the background.Bigger soundstage,increased depth,far more musical.Earlier if I moved away from the 'sweet spot' one or the other speaker became more prominent.But yesterday I tried listening from different positions in the room.Much more balanced sound coming not from the speakers,but at least 3-4 feet behind and stretching across the entire span between the two speakers.Earlier I used to move the furniture/carpets around while listening 'seriously'.Yesterday nothing.Just the earthern flower pots in the two corners behind the speaker.

 

[santhosh]

Have been following and learning from this thread since it was started. Fantastic exchange of knowledge and POVs by Dr.Bass, Shanti, arj, malvai, ajay124 etc. Thanks and keep it going guys. It is almost like a role-play. De-mystifying lot of my doubts.

*rates thread 5 stars*

 

[bhagwan]

AMS Impex

This is a touch screen I was considering.
Does any one else have any idea what I could get / in its place...

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[santhosh]

Actually, I will be buying a 16" touch screen [soon] and use it like a Meridian Soolloos. Just will not like the 3 wires, but then the touch screen joy will be there to be had.....

AMS Impex

This is a touch screen I was considering.
Does any one else have any idea what I could get / in its place...

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Since you are used to your iTouch, perhaps you should consider an
iPad. You get a larger screen, it is wireless and not a sea change in terms of UI. If you have bought any special apps, same will work on your iPad without having to buy them again. For Eg: I use iPeng to play music off my Squeezebox.

 

[bhagwan]

@san
Thanks.
I have done too many changes in the last 7 days & am I 'harrowed'

a]
Moved from XP to Windows 7 - Ultimate

b]
Moved from Foobar to J River 15 0 171

Basically nothing seems to work.

The Win 7 + J River is not working - keeps on skipping etc.

If I go to Win 7 + Foo with ASIO it plays - but the sq is not up to the mark.

The I-touch used to work with Foo.
However, it will not work with J River [currently supposed to be the best for music play back - sq i.e.]
The J River interface is poor.

My 1st priority is to get J River started on Win 7 with my up sampler......

Will try your new ipeng & let you know. Thanks,

 

[Asit]

Sipping tea with a Bhimsen Joshi live recording.My wife says that orchestral music is sounding better than vocals with the 4B SST.Possibly a live recording made in Indian conditions cannot compete with a recording made in the Wiener Philharmoniker.But even Mark Knopfler did not sound good yeasterday.

Ajay,
You are in discussion with some of the masters of digital reproduction of music. I do not have much to contribute there. If anything, I may learn a few things and whenever an opportunity arises within my very limited budget, I may think of experimenting with some of the ideas being discussed.

My current post is slightly off-topic (apologies for that) and concerns your statement quoted above.

In my experience, I have always found that it's not easy to achieve the desired balance between orchestral music and vocals, as you mention above. Speaker placement in a given room is important. But when that is done with a reasonable satisfaction, there are other parameters like the cables (even their connectors) and placement of the CDP/amp etc and their isolation (I am not talking about expensive tweaks here although some people pay an insane amount on these things). Placing your CDP on solid wood as opposed to glass or marble or granite brings about remarkable changes, for example. Similarly, trying cables of different material (silver, copper, aluminium and all kinds of alloys etc) brings about changes. Now, what are these changes? These are changes in the tonal balance of the sound. Unlike ordinary electrical signals (which is basically comprising of a single frequency or thereabouts), the electrical signals carrying audio has a huge bandwidth of frequencies and this makes the subject extremely interesting to me. A few db of enhancement or suppression in a particular frequency band changes the ultimate output quite significantly if your system is resolving enough. And this whole tonal balance thing is obviously system dependent. Whatever worked with your previous amp will likely not work with your new amp. In my view, a perfectly neutral system is a myth, one always has to work on these things. For a particular set-up of your system, vocals may sound a little receded. The trick is to change one thing at a time and observe the differences.

Recently, when Saikat from Bangalore visited me, I was using a Silver-Copper alloy IC from CDP to my amp with a Shindo-type RCA connector. Then the IC was changed to a different IC of the same material with slightly different insulation and a JPS Labs type connector. The tonal balance was different. Initially I thought the difference was due to one cable not broken in completely. But later, I learned to attribute the difference to something else.

Regards

 

[arj]

Asit, Loved your post :clapping: ditto with most of your Posts !

The number of dimensions that can impact music reproduction is so huge...whether it be digital or analogue .

I remember a meeting with an elderly singaporean audiophile , way back in 2004, who had actually tuned his room to the right sound with jade pieces and Oil filled plate under his sub to get the best sound.I though he was Bonkers then as i did not even believe in cable difference then !

But now having gone through all sorts of changes in sound from the same system in the past few months by simple changes in Vibration control and power am amazed and daunted by what can be done to sound.
Just interchanging vibration control devices between the amp, dac and CDP bring about changes today... of course admitting it makes one seem crazy but the fact is undeniable.

Regarding Wood/glass etc. apparently the best way is to have a constrained Layer damping. since each material has its own Spread of frequencies it can damp/absorb and combination of materials with different such frequencies is best ! while reading up on turntable plinths found that a combination of PLywood, MDF and slate makes for a great Sandwich for the same !

But again since this is an aspect which can drive one insane if seen as tone control, the practical way is to get it right and pray for the best result ! (i guess as in cricket, the master bowlers get the line/length and speed right and let the pitch take care of the rest). I would feel if you get the power right (this is the Lifeline to your system). and then get the stability in terms of isolating your source from vibrations and well coupling your amp to the ground is a very safe way to start.
(BTW I personally have got the best results with a coupled amp and a decoupled transport ...but there are other views as well)

All this assuming that the basic synergies of a) Room to Speaker and b)speaker to Amp is well taken care of and the c) source is the best and most "neutral" you can get IMHO these 3 are the fundamental building blocks of any audio system ! and if not right then no amount of cables and other tweaks will do any good.

 

[jls001]

But a 4B SST happened to be available and a couple of days ago I had read comments somewhere which had lodged in my mind....that the 4B SST was not only Bryston's best selling amp,but possibly their best.
....

Whew....
Your upgrade took a very different path! Been following your thread in the hope of learning something for a possible upgrade in the far distant future. But I am still not clear about what you've finally zeroed in on (CDp). Will you be coming to Mumbai for a listen of the CDp at Grattan's or planning to do this also blind?

Joshua
PS: I'd been so tied up this past few weeks I haven't had the time to dispatch the promised package. Will do so today, with a few sweeteners

 

[ajay124]

@Santhol
I usually surf the internet on the iPad,while listening to music.Seems like an attractive idea to remote control all my music from the iPad,and not have to get up to change cd's.
I could rip my music into lossless files on my iMac which is in a different room.What are the options for streaming that music through my main system which is in the living room.
I'm aware of Sonos and Squeezebox but would like more inputs.I would also like to learn about Apple TV and Airport Express.
How do I get all my music on the iPad with minimum clutter,maximum resolution and a smooth trouble free interface?

 

[arj]

@Santhol
I usually surf the internet on the iPad,while listening to music.Seems like an attractive idea to remote control all my music from the iPad,and not have to get up to change cd's.
I could rip my music into lossless files on my iMac which is in a different room.What are the options for streaming that music through my main system which is in the living room.
I'm aware of Sonos and Squeezebox but would like more inputs.I would also like to learn about Apple TV and Airport Express.How do I get all my music on the iPad with minimum clutter,maximum resolution and a smooth trouble free interface?

I use it with my iMac. while it is ok if you want music in the background..if you want to be immersed in music, compared with my current sourse..it is the opposite of relaxed ..this is after using it only as a digital receiver and giving the output to my dac.

 

[ajay124]

Whew....
Your upgrade took a very different path! Been following your thread in the hope of learning something for a possible upgrade in the far distant future. But I am still not clear about what you've finally zeroed in on (CDp). Will you be coming to Mumbai for a listen of the CDp at Grattan's or planning to do this also blind?

Joshua
PS: I'd been so tied up this past few weeks I haven't had the time to dispatch the promised package. Will do so today, with a few sweeteners

@Joshua
Thanks for the 'package' in advance.
CDP upgrade will have to wait a bit as I blew that cash on the 4B SST!
Gives me more headroom for 'research'
Present conclusion's for cdp's under 3500$.Accuphase may be a bit more expensive.I may be partially right,partially wrong and possibly completely wrong,
as all assumptions have been made without an audition.I am willing and eager to learn from those who have more theoretical and actual knowledge)
Esoteric SA 10
Accuphase DP 400
These two cdp's have the best build quality and easily the best transport's.
Sound according to some is clinical,lacking in emotion and musicality.Subjective area.But these cdp's are expensive and should not be bought without an audition
Meridian GO 6.2
Ayre CX 7e
Mediocre build quality-less aluminium,more plastic-when compared with the Japanese cdp's.CD Rom drives (probably sourced from Teac).
Definitely not a patch on the pick up system of Accuphase or the VOSP used in Esoteric.Cost cutting,high levels of jitter according to Stereophile measurements.
Ayre provides a budget plastic remote,Meridian has a switch mode power supply,which some folks find better for cdp's,but most people prefer transformer's.
Meridian is a big name in cdp's.Understated,refined,'British' sound.Ayre has a more open 'American' sound.Big soundstage,airy highs,great with string instruments.
Overall I feel Ayre is the 'safest' option if one is going blind.
I will try to audition Esoteric/Accuphase/Bryston at Boomarang in 2011,but would really prefer a home audition.
For Ayon CD1/2,Sridhar or actual user's on the forum would be the best judge.
I have also got in touch with Norman Audio for Ayre and I will be speaking to Absolute Sound for Esoteric.
The 4B SST has raised the SQ to a whole new level.If a cdp upgrade gives me a similar incremental increase in SQ,then that would possibly be my last HiFi buy
as long as everything keeps functioning without a fault.

Listening to David Bowie's 80's-90's music at 12 o clock volumes.WOW!Soundstage is reminiscent of a rock concert venue rather than home audio!
David Bowie is an amazing vocalist and one of the biggest survivors in the annals of rock music.His voice can go into
depths,heights,spaces where very few rock vocalists venture.
The real magic of his voice is not apparent on mediocre systems.I pulled the Essential David Bowie 2CD set out of a box of my discarded cd's,a few months back.
The Bryston's dug out layer's from his voice that I never knew existed.They made me want to listen to all his music and not just the classic 'Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust'.

 

[ajay124]

@Asit
"I do not have much to contribute" Traditional Kolkatta modesty?
I feel you are among those on the forum who can contribute the most.
Because your posts always have knowledge,experience and original insights.
Speaker placement,isolation of equipment and power supply,room acoustic's,the audio rack,listening position,
all these have a major influence on the SQ.I am gradually pursuing these area's but I have not allocated any cash for them.
When I bought the Transparent IC's and speaker cables it took a while for me to place the order.
It was a major investment in an area where I had earlier felt,that one could get by without a major cash outlay.
When I received the cables,their superb build quality convinced me that I had done the right thing,even before I placed them in my system.
Now I feel they are as integral and indispensable as the source/amp/speaker's I have.Going 'balanced' would involve a huge chunk of cash(changing cdp,pre,ic's)
and I am not contemplating that at the moment.But for single ended rca and speaker cables,I am completely satisfied with the Transparent's.
@arj
'it is the opposite of relaxed '
That is precisely what I feel about all source's except the cdp.Even vinyl comes with strings attached.But at least those strings can be a source of pleasure if you like vinyl.
A smoothly functioning touch screen would also be a source of pleasure.I wish there was a one box,WiFi plug and play audiophile setup for streaming music from a Mac to an Amp.
I've even thought of a good brand name.
WiFiHiFi!

 

[santhosh]

@Santhol
I usually surf the internet on the iPad,while listening to music.Seems like an attractive idea to remote control all my music from the iPad,and not have to get up to change cd's.
I could rip my music into lossless files on my iMac which is in a different room.What are the options for streaming that music through my main system which is in the living room.
I'm aware of Sonos and Squeezebox but would like more inputs.I would also like to learn about Apple TV and Airport Express.
How do I get all my music on the iPad with minimum clutter,maximum resolution and a smooth trouble free interface?

A smoothly functioning touch screen would also be a source of pleasure.I wish there was a one box,WiFi plug and play audiophile setup for streaming music from a Mac to an Amp.
I've even thought of a good brand name.
WiFiHiFi!

Sorry for the delayed response Ajay. Several ways you could do this:
a) One is to store all your music in lossless format on your iMac (can be in a different room and even connected to another music system). Stream the music to an Apple TV or Airport Express. The Apple TV or Airport Express is to be connected to your system through one of these methods:

• Airport Express ->headphone to two RCA cable -> pre-amp/integrated amp
• Airport Express ->optical out -> DAC -> pre-amp/integrated amp

Either ways, you can control the itunes running on your iMac over wi-fi using a remote app (to be installed on your iPad). You would need a home network which I am assuming you already have since you have so many iGadgets.

More info on remote app here:
Remote for iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad on the iTunes App Store

b) Buy a music specific media player like Sonos, Squeezebox Duet/Touch, Naim Uniti or choose from the Linn Audio range of media players. I recently auditioned the Akurate DS in their showroom at Adelphi Mall in Singapore and was very unbelievably analog sounding. My Squeezebox Duet cannot hold a candle to this one, but again it comes at a price. It was paired with the Linn Audio Akurate Book shelves and Linn Audio Electronics...very detailed and

Choose any of the above devices(not sure about the Naim) and you can control them all by installing specific remote apps on your iPad. Like I mentioned earlier, I use iPeng with my Squeezebox. Since you also have a SB Boom, you should try this one - worthy every cent of the $10 it can be installed for.

c) Other options wherein you'll be playing off your iTouch/iPad but I would rather leave them wire-free and use them as a remote

d) Other options using a Music PC but you I know you are an apple fan (from your posts).