96Hz 24 Bit Remastered on CD - Decca

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swami

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Hi,

During my last visit to a music shop (Reliance Time-Out), I came across some CDs from DECCA(/PHILIPS) Classics label <link>. I am not a listener of Western Classicals but it was my interest for the audio format rather than the genre that prompted me to post this. Many of these CDs mentioned Remastered - 96HZ 24 Bit. I would like to understand what this really means.

*1 Are these regular RB CDs? (wiki : RB CD = 44.1Hz/16Bit)
*2 Are these non-standard CDs which should be played on a CDP having a decoder but are backward compatible to old CD players (much like HDCD or maybe DTS 5.1 CDs)?
*3 The same recording if available in 44.1/16 would sound audibly inferior?
*4 If I have a DVD-A or SACD with the same stereo track and with specification 96/24, will it have the same quality as the one on these CDs?
*5 Is there anyway to rip/burn these discs using CD-R and CD Writing ODD?

Please provide your answers to the above mentioned. Whatever you know about these queries, I would greatly prefer your point-wise replies.

P.S: I am not finding any forum specific to audio formats, so posting it here.

Regards,
Swami
 
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smedhavi

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Can you please point to the specific albums you are referring to? I could not find it on their website.

I think it just means that the mastering equipment used was 96/24. The CDs should be regular RB 44.1Hz/16Bit CDs.

JVC did the same with the XRCD. They also claim that the physical media is of better quality too. The XRCDs do sound significantly better! This is mostly because they did a good job with the mastering.

Thanks,
Sharad
 
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swami

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Thanks.

Anyone who has seen/listened to these CDs? Would you like to agree/disagree with Smedhavi's view?
 

smedhavi

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The wikipedia link talks about the 96/24 audio stream. All of us know that it exists and is used on DVDs. We are talking about someone selling "audio CDs" with this encoding; which is highly improbable. I have some DTS audio CDs but I don't think that is what we are talking about.
I am looking forward to hearing from someone who owns a Decca CD.

Swami, if you could point us to the specific 96/24 albums, it would be easier to figure this out.

Thanks,
Sharad
 

marsilians

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96/24 is a DTS standard for offering high resolution audio on DVDs originally that has been ported to CDs as well.

the 96 refers to the sampling rate of 96 Khz which is double of the usual for Dobly Digital. This means you will pack more music on the CD instead of letting your AVR or CD player try to extrapolate while playing (in layman terms this means the music will be very smooth when playing)

24 refers to the #bits used to store the music frequencies. In common terms this means your music will have greater clarity compared to the normal 16bit depth (you will able to pick out the various instruments during the playback quite easily).

Like I said before thsi was a DVD format originally and some DTS CDs like Sting's Brand New Day, Joe Cocker's Night Calls are created in this fashion.

You need a 96/24 capable AVR to play these back however they are backwards compatible meaning they will also play on normal DTS enabled AVRs though this format is crappier than the Dolby Digital 5.1 sound.

For higher resolutions than DTS, there is Super Audio CD (SACD) and DVD-Audio (not to be confused with songs from movies on DVDs :) )
 

RB9

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Hi,

During my last visit to a music shop (Reliance Time-Out), I came across some CDs from DECCA(/PHILIPS) Classics label <link>. I am not a listener of Western Classicals but it was my interest for the audio format rather than the genre that prompted me to post this. Many of these CDs mentioned Remastered - 96HZ 24 Bit. I would like to understand what this really means.

*1 Are these regular RB CDs? (wiki : RB CD = 44.1Hz/16Bit)
*2 Are these non-standard CDs which should be played on a CDP having a decoder but are backward compatible to old CD players (much like HDCD or maybe DTS 5.1 CDs)?
*3 The same recording if available in 44.1/16 would sound audibly inferior?
*4 If I have a DVD-A or SACD with the same stereo track and with specification 96/24, will it have the same quality as the one on these CDs?
*5 Is there anyway to rip/burn these discs using CD-R and CD Writing ODD?

Please provide your answers to the above mentioned. Whatever you know about these queries, I would greatly prefer your point-wise replies.

P.S: I am not finding any forum specific to audio formats, so posting it here.

Regards,
Swami

Hi swami, i have many 96/24 audio cds with me. They all need HDCD decoders for the best listening but can be played on any cdp or dvdp as regular cds but will lack the juice which can be heard through HDCD player !
Enjoy
RB9
 

swami

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The wikipedia link talks about the 96/24 audio stream. All of us know that it exists and is used on DVDs. We are talking about someone selling "audio CDs" with this encoding; which is highly improbable. I have some DTS audio CDs but I don't think that is what we are talking about.
I am looking forward to hearing from someone who owns a Decca CD.

Swami, if you could point us to the specific 96/24 albums, it would be easier to figure this out.

Thanks,
Sharad

I will try and buy one of these CDs and play in my HT and my comp (WMP) and also note down many other album names for our research/finding!

Hi swami, i have many 96/24 audio cds with me. They all need HDCD decoders for the best listening but can be played on any cdp or dvdp as regular cds but will lack the juice which can be heard through HDCD player !
Enjoy
RB9

What is the common thing in HDCD and these 96KHz/24Bit CDs? I certainly lack this knowledge.


Thanks Ashok for correcting it to KHz.
 

hifiashok

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Earlier, only the big names like, California Audio Labs (USA), Mark Levinson/Madrigal (USA), Burmester (Germany), Cary (USA), Naim (UK), Linn (UK), Classe (Canada), A&R Cambridge Ltd (ARCAM) (UK), Rotel (Japan) and Cayin-Spark (China) had HDCD DACs. Outboard DACs (digital to analog converters) were produced by Classe, Mark Levinson and others.

However, after 2007, almost all RBCD players have the HDCD DACs, typically using the Burr Brown (TI) chipset.
 

hifiashok

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I have atleast one Antonin Dvorak - Symphonies 7 (D minor) & 9 (E minor) (Rafael Kubelik, Wiener Philharmoniker) ADD on a Decca 'Legends' 96kHz 24-bit Super Digital Transfer Remaster.

The Oppo 980H recognises and plays this. Will check and revert is the CEC3300R does too (as HDCD, i.e.).
 

RB9

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Earlier, only the big names like, California Audio Labs (USA), Mark Levinson/Madrigal (USA), Burmester (Germany), Cary (USA), Naim (UK), Linn (UK), Classe (Canada), A&R Cambridge Ltd (ARCAM) (UK), Rotel (Japan) and Cayin-Spark (China) had HDCD DACs. Outboard DACs (digital to analog converters) were produced by Classe, Mark Levinson and others.

However, after 2007, almost all RBCD players have the HDCD DACs, typically using the Burr Brown (TI) chipset.

Hi hifiashok, pls adv few regular (mass prod.) cdp which can play HDCD ?
 

hifiashok

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hifiashok

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Denon DVD2900 and/or Sony DSP-NS999ES should be available closer home (still prefer the Oppo, price/performance VFM).
 

RB9

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Denon DVD2900 and/or Sony DSP-NS999ES should be available closer home (still prefer the Oppo, price/performance VFM).

Dear hifiashok, i agree on this oppo vfm ! But the point remeins the same as you mentioned, "after 2007 all the cdp can play HDCD "..........till today there are hardly any mass CD Player which can play HDCD !
Regards
 

RB9

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Not sure what you mean by mass produced CDP. Oppo is a mass produced player. Am I missing something?

Hi, first of all oppo is a DVD player not CD player ! May be i should use "regular cdp instead of mass pro. " ,like Denon/CA/Marantz etc. What i mean is that im not agree to the point made by hifiashok that all the cdp after 2007 are HDCD player !
All cdp can play the 24/96 cd's but to get the juice out of these cd's you need HDCD Codecs which are not in regular cdp. Hence need DVD player with HDCD codecs OR spl cd player with HDCD codecs (chip etc)!
Regards
RB9
 

IndianEars

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There seems to be TOO much confusion on this thread, on many issues... IMHO orcourse ;)

My 2 cents... hopefully to address the fundamentals :

1. HDCD was invented by .... Microsoft ! It is a Backward compatible encoding format ( can be played on ANY Standard redbook CD player, no matter how old. Only if not HDCD ready, it will not extract the additional info on the HDCD, but play as a regular Redbook/standard CD).

The 'Redbook' is the book that origibnally carried the CD specs.... yes, its cover was Red ! :)

HDCD adds some more resolution to low level signals.

It is an Incremental development, producing Incrementally improved sound.

( Incidentally, Apple has often been associated with High quality sound reproduction, and its formats... few acknowledge or know that Microsoft developed HDCDs and the wav file format too ! Wav is the defacto Uncompressed Hi quality digital file storage format for PCs).


2. 24/96

This is NOT a CD format. Its DVD Audio !

It CANNOT be played on a CD Player. You MUST have a DVD Player or a Universal player.

Many CDs have their studio Master files in this format, but when offered as CDs, those files are down-sampled to 16/44.
 

IndianEars

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24/96 files are avaible on the net for download... some pirate audio sites offer these....

You CANNOT burn these as an audio CD ( eg using Nero )

If you burn them as data files, your CD player will not recognise the disc.

Your computer will play them... automatically throwing away the extra bits ( compared to 16/44) if your sound card does not support 24/96.

Bottom line, CD players CANNOT and WILL NOT play 24/96... they are NOT a CD format.

Its like trying to play Video on a CD player .... its simply WONT.
 
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hifiashok

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There seems to be TOO much confusion on this thread, on many issues... IMHO orcourse ;)

My 2 cents... hopefully to address the fundamentals :

1. HDCD was invented by .... Microsoft ! It is a Backward compatible encoding format ( can be played on ANY Standard redbook CD player, no matter how old. Only if not HDCD ready, it will not extract the additional info on the HDCD, but play as a regular Redbook/standard CD).

The 'Redbook' is the book that origibnally carried the CD specs.... yes, its cover was Red ! :)

HDCD adds some more resolution to low level signals.

It is an Incremental development, producing Incrementally improved sound.

( Incidentally, Apple has often been associated with High quality sound reproduction, and its formats... few acknowledge or know that Microsoft developed HDCDs and the wav file format too ! Wav is the defacto Uncompressed Hi quality digital file storage format for PCs).


2. 24/96

This is NOT a CD format. Its DVD Audio !

It CANNOT be played on a CD Player. You MUST have a DVD Player or a Universal player.

Many CDs have their studio Master files in this format, but when offered as CDs, those files are down-sampled to 16/44.

HDCD technology was developed between 1986 and 1991 by Keith Johnson and Michael "Pflash" Pflaumer of Pacific Microsonics Inc. It was made publicly available as HDCD-enabled audio CDs in 1995.

In 2000, Microsoft acquired the company and all of its intellectual property assets.

I agree that 24/96 isn't Red Book CD format. However, it may not be correct to say that the format cannot be played on ANY CDP, and one needs a DVD or a Universal player to play it.

Look for any CDPs with the Burr-Brown PCM-1732 or 1796 DAC. Like the Rotel RCD-1070/1072, RCD 951, Arcam Diva CD-92, Cayin CD15, Sheng Ya CD-S10, Original CD-2008F, Raysonic CD128, etc. My own CEC3300R CDP also has the Burr-Brown PCM-1796 24 Bit DAC (comes back to the definition requirement of the 'what is mass produced'?).

Also check out Stereophile: HDCD Spreads Further into the Audio Kingdom
 
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swami

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So, am I right in understanding that these 96/24 recordings in question are merely a specification of the master(/remastered) source and does not relate to the end product (CDDA) sold to the music CD customer like me?

If this is right, then 96/24 mentioned on these DECCA CDs serves just an FYI for me and no more. IMHO, HMV might as well start writing LP on the CD covers and say that the master is on LP even though the end CD is only 44.1/16. Some others might say 192/24 and what not. Do I make sense here?

If whatever I conclude above is somewhat correct, then I would be disappointed in DECCA CDs of these sort. I do not doubt the quality of these CDs but do not feel happy about the 96/24 thing written on the CD cover. For me, its rather a misguiding piece of information.
 
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