A discussion about crappy DVD players as CD players

[Analogous]

Buy a cheap one and an expensive one. If sound similar sell the expensive one. If differences are appreciable, then still keep both.

A Blind test, of course?
I have a cheap one. Now if I can find someone with an expensive one willing to collaborate on the blind test….
Note: The expensive one needs to have a SPDIF or Optical out (rare in expensive CDPs with decent DACs)

 

[coaltrain]

I have the Marantz CD6000 OSE (Original Signature Edition) - which uses a Philips mechanism, Jupiter Rega CD player which uses a Sony mechanism and LG BD drive on my HTPC and a Cheap Sony DVD player (which I got for Rs 4000 new). All sound exactly the same using an external DAC.

A few years ago, FM @Jayant_S and I decided to meet up for a blind test. The objective was to determine if CD transports actually do sound the same.
At that time, I had the Audiolab 6000CDT and he had a Sony bdp (don’t recall the model).
We hooked up both to a Denafrips Ares II using two runs of the exact same cable, Othello spdif from Hifimart. We also had two copies of the same cd, Getz/Gilberto. (We initially tried two copies of a Blue Note album, but the levels were different)
I sat in front of the DAC to hide the input indicator light from Jayant, who occupied the sweet spot. After starting both discs simultaneously, I switched between the two at random while Jayant called out whenever he felt the sound had changed or improved. Then we swapped places and I did the same.
Our conclusion, consistent and unsighted, was that the Sony sounded better. Ergo, transports can sound different.

In your example above, I see three possible conclusions:
1. There really is no audible difference between the three transports.
2. The DAC is not competent enough to reveal the differences.
3. Your ears are not able to hear any differences.

A good scientist will eliminate the second and third before concluding the first. Just sayin’.

 

[Analogous]

This is why I so like this hobby/ obsession!

 

[mbhangui]

Your experience using all the transports was with the same DAC @mbhangui ?

Multiple high performing DACs and even with an ancient dac from 2012.

 

[mbhangui]

A few years ago, FM @Jayant_S and I decided to meet up for a blind test. The objective was to determine if CD transports actually do sound the same.
At that time, I had the Audiolab 6000CDT and he had a Sony bdp (don’t recall the model).
We hooked up both to a Denafrips Ares II using two runs of the exact same cable, Othello spdif from Hifimart. We also had two copies of the same cd, Getz/Gilberto. (We initially tried two copies of a Blue Note album, but the levels were different)
I sat in front of the DAC to hide the input indicator light from Jayant, who occupied the sweet spot. After starting both discs simultaneously, I switched between the two at random while Jayant called out whenever he felt the sound had changed or improved. Then we swapped places and I did the same.
Our conclusion, consistent and unsighted, was that the Sony sounded better. Ergo, transports can sound different.

In your example above, I see three possible conclusions:
1. There really is no audible difference between the three transports.
2. The DAC is not competent enough to reveal the differences.
3. Your ears are not able to hear any differences.

A good scientist will eliminate the second and third before concluding the first. Just sayin’.

That is how test should be done. Only question is if the output level of the Audiolab 6000CDT and Sony BDP was the same?

I did something similar by using a high quality digital/optical switcher. I used the digital input instead of optical

 

[reignofchaos]

Put some random crappy chinese junk in the signal path and then claim I can't hear any difference lol.

 

[mbhangui]

Put some random crappy chinese junk in the signal path and then claim I can't hear any difference lol.

That is a racist comment and BTW Audio Authority Switches are Designed, manufactured in Lexington, KY, USA with the address

Audio Authority Corporation
2048 Mercer Road
Lexington, KY 40511-1071 USA

Even the DC jack has the outer shield positive instead of negative, typical of US only designs. Design, Manufacturing and Support are all under one roof at the above KY facility. The above switch is powered by a 12v LPS instead of SMPS.


They are into aviation products, switchers, intercoms, demonstration systems, aircraft ground power, video distributions, video convertors and scalers, audio controllers for car and home audio

 

[prem]

I have owned 3 types of cd transports. Esoteric which uses their own transport, CEC which is a belt drive transport and Mark Levinson which uses a Philips pro transport.

I have heard all three with the Mark Levinson dac. All three sounded different to my ears.

Esoteric is all about detail and resolution.

CEC is a very fluid sounding player. Very addictive

The Levinson is a warmer presentation.

For lack of a better analogy it’s like comparing a direct drive turntable with an idler and a belt one.

In another experiment, I have compared a simple OPPO player as a transport. The Esoteric transport sounded much better.

Having said the above, if I can’t afford an Esoteric, I think a blu ray player as a transport is a good option. I would choose it over your run of the mill cd transports.

 

[Analogous]

Shall we all make an effort to keep this interesting discussion cordial even if we read posts that may not align with our own views?
Everyone’s inputs matter, but a good tone makes it enjoyable to read.
I know I have learnt some new things that I was unaware of and it would be a pity to let the discussion deteriorate.

 

[Analogous]

I have owned 3 types of cd transports. Esoteric which uses their own transport, CEC which is a belt drive transport and Mark Levinson which uses a Philips pro transport.

I have heard all there with the Mark Levinson dac. All three sounded different to my ears.

Esoteric is all about detail and resolution.

CEC is a very fluid sounding player. Very addictive

The Levinson is a warmer presentation.

For lack of a better analogy it’s like comparing a direct drive turntable with an idler and a belt one.

In another experiment, I have compared a simple OPPO player as a transport. The Esoteric transport sounded much better.

Having said the above, if I can’t afford an Esoteric, I think a blu ray player as a transport is a good option. I would choose it over your run of the mill cd transports.

@prem these are some very exalted brands of CD transports. I was wondering: do you think it was the DACs in these transports that contributed to the differences or the physical mechanisms also contributed to some extent?

 

[prem]

These transports don’t have dacs. They are pure cd transports.

 

[Analogous]

 

[Nitin K]

Going by the Chinese logic, even Nad gets manufactured there, maybe their Masters series too. That includes a lot of European brands also being manufactured there.

 

[reignofchaos]

That is a racist comment and BTW Audio Authority Switches are Designed, manufactured in Lexington, KY, USA with the address

Audio Authority Corporation
2048 Mercer Road
Lexington, KY 40511-1071 USA

Even the DC jack has the outer shield positive instead of negative, typical of US only designs. Design, Manufacturing and Support are all under one roof at the above KY facility. The above switch is powered by a 12v LPS instead of SMPS.


They are into aviation products, switchers, intercoms, demonstration systems, aircraft ground power, video distributions, video convertors and scalers, audio controllers for car and home audio

Doesn't matter - it is junk. Those RCAs belong to the lowest tier junk out there and will definitely color everything. This device will be a bottleneck in any high end audio testing.

 

[sidvee]

What I can't understand during all these discussions is how one's personal opinion becomes the de-facto standard. As it should be anybody's personal views on any matter are purely subjective - regardless of the fact - if they are a Nobel prize winner or an average person - rest all depends on the ears of the listener. If one cannot listen to said equipment - please treat all other comments/posts/assertions etc as just that - Opinion. Opinion is not a fact. Coming back to OP's question - I had an oppo Bd83 dvd player and an Ayon Cd2s Cd player. The Ayon's weight was such that it would crush the oppo if placed on top of it plus it cost 3x4 times more. Did I hear a difference - After a few glasses?, yes, the Ayon was beautiful to look at - my subjective opinion kicked in (beer glasses - if any one remembers that analogy). Guess what Ayon Cd2s got sold. 2 years after I bought it, and oppo is still with me, some 18 years (anyways just my opinion).
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Kannan]

Doesn't matter - it is junk. Those RCAs belong to the lowest tier junk out there and will definitely color everything. This device will be a bottleneck in any high end audio testing.

Sorry to state, but this is a junk reply. Wonder how the RCA connectors can colour the sound. In the audiophile world, it is those uber expensive cables that claim to incorporate pseudo science materials and technologies that actually try to colour the sound. It is fascinating to see audiophiles using cables as tone controls.

This thread is sadly going North.

 

[mbhangui]

Time to come back to the topic. I did say that the actual transport doesn't matter. What I did not qualify that when I say transport, I meant just the mechanical drive. In most cases people refer to the transport as the whole thing, but I do not. Hence the clarification. What happens next is the laser mechanism with associated electroncis then read reads the data and puts it in the buffer. Uptil now all is fine. Remember that this mechanical drive is no way coupled to your DAC or the system connected to the transport output. Once the data is in the buffer and has to be transmitted, the quality does matter. This data is clocked using an internal clock in the CD and sent out as SPDIF (either electrically or optically or both). A costlier transport will use very high quality clock compared to a cheap dvd player. The clock matters significantly in S/PDIF transmission, and can even be a major source of audio quality issues. S/PDIF, while transmitting both audio data and the clock information, doesn't always do it in the most stable or reliable way. The clock in S/PDIF is embedded within the data stream, and the receiver needs to extract and synchronize with it. This process can introduce jitter, which can lead to audio distortions. This is where significant difference can occur between a good quality transport (not necessarily costlier) and a cheap dvd player. In all cases using a precise clock increases the cost because you have to throw away hundreds of crystals to get one precise clock.

NOTE: it is not necessary that you need to spend $$ to get a good clock. Even in a normal production there will be many clocks manufactured which will be precise. A good e.g. is that I have an old Ajanta clock that doesn't loose even a second in a month regardless of the room temperature and a citizen wall clock which performs similarly. But I have another citizen wall clock of same make which gains around 3 seconds a month. So a cheap DVD player randomly can get a good clock.

 

[mbhangui]

View attachment 90859
Mine is the UHD X700 feeding the Holo Cyan2

How have you connected? Optical cable? You could try connecting the DIGITAL out of the sony player to coax in using a rca to bnc cable. Usually the electrical SPDIF has lower jitter than optical. But in modern dacs, the issue with jitter has mostly been taken care off.

 

[Analogous]

How have you connected? Optical cable? You could try connecting the DIGITAL out of the sony player to coax in using an rca to bnc cable. Usually the electrical SPDIF has lower jitter than optical. But in modern dacs, the issue with jitter has mostly been taken care off.

I use the digital coaxial. Have not tried the optical yet.
Because of the time taken while switching sources I am not able to determine differences if any between the same album played from the CD and the FLAC file ripped to the HDD of the Aurender.