A quick poll on role of DAC and Dynamics

[fusioner]

Not adding a DAC, but changing the DAC. Remember, you sound card is a DAC!

i think he meant to use an external DAC and using the digital out of STX.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yes, I understood that too --- it is just that DACs, these days, tend to be presented as something we need, forgetting that we probably already have several.

 

[square_wave]

while the PrismSound is many zeros more

he hee.

I can only imagine the grin on sridhar's face ! With the prism, you are in the presence of one of the finest dacs ever made !

For whatever it is worth, dynamics and realism are first things that vanish when your source is not good !

 

[hydra]

@thad, as fusioner said, I was planning to use the coaxial out of the Xonar to feed a DAC (if it comes to that). But considering how USB inputs are getting better and better, I might end up replacing the Xonar altogether with an external USB DAC (if I feel the need for improving the source).

 

[Gijo George]

@gobble. I had been to Venu's place while in bangalore. He uses a Pioneer DV410 as transport and a DIY DAC (based on the TDA 1541A module) and the detail and soundstage is just amazing. Venu tells me the speakers still need burn in. I've no experience in burn in's but even without it, the music is just AWESOME. But ofcourse he uses Accoustic Portrait PM-1 and a 200WAmp from AP and not to mention about the speakers again AP with Scanspeak drivers. I didnt have time to experiment with various sources and in between electronics so cant give you comparisons. But from what Venu explained the DAC definitely adds to the overall music nirvana.
Regards

 

[gobble]

@gobble. I had been to Venu's place while in bangalore. He uses a Pioneer DV410 as transport and a DIY DAC (based on the TDA 1541A module) and the detail and soundstage is just amazing. Venu tells me the speakers still need burn in. I've no experience in burn in's but even without it, the music is just AWESOME. But ofcourse he uses Accoustic Portrait PM-1 and a 200WAmp from AP and not to mention about the speakers again AP with Scanspeak drivers. I didnt have time to experiment with various sources and in between electronics so cant give you comparisons. But from what Venu explained the DAC definitely adds to the overall music nirvana.
Regards

Gijo

With your suggestion you have actually guessed my intention. I heard it too and liked the dynamics. Then it made me ponder why the same dynamics were lacking with my gear having 94db speakers and a somewhat oversized Trafo (Linuxguru's MyRef). Hence my question.

Now I am wondering if I should get an ESI @Juli card for digital out at half the price of a Xonar Essence ST and pair it with a DIY DAC from AnalogMetric like the one Venu built. In fact he suggested I build it too, and I kinda agree I should. (... thats another potentially 50 to 60K saved on DAC :yahoo

Think I will order the kit soon.

--G

 

[odyssey]

while I agree that the source should be as good/pure as possible for the best sound, the translation of dynamics present in the source happens as a result of the interaction between the electronics and the speaker. The entire chain is important.
Gobble - in your case it might very well be that the amp to speaker is not producing the dynamics you want - or could even be your source. Only way to find out is to get a good source to see how much of a difference it makes.

cheers

 

[stereorules]

Now I am wondering if I should get an ESI @Juli card for digital out at half the price of a Xonar Essence ST and pair it with a DIY DAC from AnalogMetric like the one Venu built.

In fact, this is the dilemma that I'm presently in ...Am also in the process of building a music PC ..let me know what you finally end up with .

 

[gobble]

while I agree that the source should be as good/pure as possible for the best sound, the translation of dynamics present in the source happens as a result of the interaction between the electronics and the speaker. The entire chain is important.
Gobble - in your case it might very well be that the amp to speaker is not producing the dynamics you want - or could even be your source. Only way to find out is to get a good source to see how much of a difference it makes.

cheers

Yes, but that luxury is not always present. To put it in fanciful terms -
I am hoping for that "standing on the rocks with dangerous waves and surf crashing" experience. Its wonderful when snap and slam catches you unawares and you find yourself reacting belatedly and find you heart racing unpredictably. :licklips:

Wokay maybe an yexaggerration ... but wy yam lige thad wonly!! hyeah:

--G

 

[Gijo George]

Gijo

Now I am wondering if I should get an ESI @Juli card for digital out at half the price of a Xonar Essence ST and pair it with a DIY DAC from AnalogMetric like the one Venu built. In fact he suggested I build it too, and I kinda agree I should. (... thats another potentially 50 to 60K saved on DAC :yahoo

Think I will order the kit soon.

--G

I've been following the AMD fusion thread (to make an HTPC myself) Noticed you mention going the fusion board route. If you're taking the digital out, (to the DAC) would it make a difference if you've installed an additional SC like the Juli? Meaning would the digital out from the additional Juli SC be better than that from just the Fusion MOBO? Would like some info before I take the plunge...
TIA

 

[iaudio]

Gijo, I think I remember Magma or Cranky mentioning that the ESI Juli@ has got the best digital out of the lot among the affordable options.
I dont know how it fares compared to taking usb out from motherboard though!

 

[venkatcr]

But considering how USB inputs are getting better and better, I might end up replacing the Xonar altogether with an external USB DAC (if I feel the need for improving the source).

If you do not have a sound card and use the MB's sound output, you will be compromising the system. As important as a DAC is, the sound card is absolutely essential for extracting the music from the CD without any noise or interference in the noisy PC atmosphere. That is where the Asus and Juli@'s score.

Of course, the whole game is different if you are using a laptop. Though I have been using an old Dell laptop using the USB through an rDAC, the soundstage, clairity, and dynamics that my desktop with STX provides though the same rDAC is far far ahead.

Cheers

 

[cmsajith]

If you do not have a sound card and use the MB's sound output, you will be compromising the system. As important as a DAC is, the sound card is absolutely essential for extracting the music from the CD without any noise or interference in the noisy PC atmosphere. That is where the Asus and Juli@'s score.

Of course, the whole game is different if you are using a laptop. Though I have been using an old Dell laptop using the USB through an rDAC, the soundstage, clairity, and dynamics that my desktop with STX through the same rDAC provides is far far ahead.

Cheers

I think he is mentioning about them MB USB to get the digital out Vs the requirement of a separate sound card for getting the Digital out (Coxial/Optical)

Also what about the MB coaxial/optical digital out compared to the dedicated digital out ports?

 

[gobble]

Gijo, I think I remember Magma or Cranky mentioning that the ESI Juli@ has got the best digital out of the lot among the affordable options.
I dont know how it fares compared to taking usb out from motherboard though!

I wouldn't buy a USB DAC without Galvanic isolation to play safe.

Think I will settle down with "Juleeee ..." (remember the film song Noorie) hyeah:

--G

 

[hydra]

If you do not have a sound card and use the MB's sound output, you will be compromising the system. As important as a DAC is, the sound card is absolutely essential for extracting the music from the CD without any noise or interference in the noisy PC atmosphere. That is where the Asus and Juli@'s score.

As cmsajit pointed out, I meant that I might plan to use a DAC that uses USB input (if the USB input sounds markedly better than coaxial inputs).

The stereophile review and the computeraudiophile review of the Xonar STX had confirmed that it is capable of bit-perfect output. I'm sure it will be a great source to feed a DAC with.

Of course, the whole game is different if you are using a laptop. Though I have been using an old Dell laptop using the USB through an rDAC, the soundstage, clairity, and dynamics that my desktop with STX provides is far far ahead. ...

It is indeed good to hear this. If the analogue outputs of the Xonar STX don't sound good enough to me, this is exactly what I plan to implement right away, with my Caiman (Xonar STX > coaxial > Caiman). If that also does not work well enough for me, then I will begin seriously looking for (and begin saving for) a better DAC.

Could you comment on how the analogue-outs of the Xonar STX sounded to you?

 

[spirovious]

USB is notised to be better than coax & optical is last by reviewer-
arcam rDAC

 

[hydra]

USB is notised to be better than coax & optical is last by reviewer-
arcam rDAC

Yes, the fact that the USB input sounds better has consistently been mentioned in all reviews I've seen of the rDAC. Many user-reviews on forums also mention the same thing. They seem to have got the asynch USB implementation just right.

However the computeraudiophile review of the rDAC mentions that there isn't any galvanic isolation between the computer and the DAC. Quite interestingly, gobble just brought up the requirement for galvanic isolation in DACs.

 

[reignofchaos]

Everything in the chain matters including the DAC, Transport, Amp, Speakers and non electronic stuff like the furniture its placed upon and if proper isolators are used or not.

USB vs SPDIF is debatable. It all depends on the USB implementation vs SPDIF. I've only had one one chance with a high end source to compare between USB and SPDIF. That was with an Ayon CD-2s CD Player. In that case, SPDIF through my EMU card into the cd player sounded far better than USB. It could however be different with a different player.

 

[vasishta.sushant]

Though I have been using an old Dell laptop using the USB through an rDAC, the soundstage, clairity, and dynamics that my desktop with STX provides is far far ahead.
Cheers

This indeed is revelation to me. I was hoping rDac to be better than the STX.

I didn't have the budget to procure rDac so I had the option to get either the ST (which is supposedly little better than the STX) or HRT Music Streamer II. Both are similarly priced.

After reviewing multiple threads online, I opted for the HRT. Your statement now makes me feel like my decision wasn't right

 

[hydra]

^^ @vasishta.sushant, reading the post you quoted with his earlier post, I think venkatcr was comparing Laptop > USB> rDAC vs Desktop with Xonar STX > coaxial > rDAC.

So, the rDAC and the STX were working together (= were not being compared). This is my understanding.

(Though I'd be happy to know that the Xonar STX will beat the rDAC )