A quick poll on role of DAC and Dynamics

[gobble]

It is indeed good to hear this. If the analogue outputs of the Xonar STX don't sound good enough to me, this is exactly what I plan to implement right away, with my Caiman (Xonar STX > coaxial > Caiman). If that also does not work well enough for me, then I will begin seriously looking for (and begin saving for) a better DAC.

Could you comment on how the analogue-outs of the Xonar STX sounded to you?

Why 8.5K just for co-ax digitial out when you can get the same with ESI Juli and 4.5K or less?

--G

 

[Kittu]

ESI JULI@ is 4.5 k ? Where?

 

[venkatcr]

Why 8.5K just for co-ax digitial out when you can get the same with ESI Juli and 4.5K or less?

--G

I think you have price for ESI@Juli wrong.

Cheers

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

ok, so the world loves this extra box called a DAC, and if you are going to feed it from USB, then it is just being half a [external] sound card anyway, but if you are going to feed it digital out from an add-in PCI sound card --- I wouldn't buy a PCI sound card that didn't have excellent analogue out in the first place, and then, guess what... I wouldn't need the DAC!

Of course, if you are going to spend a lot on that external DAC, then you probably want to spend a lot on the digital source that feeds it too.

 

[hydra]

Why 8.5K just for co-ax digitial out when you can get the same with ESI Juli and 4.5K or less?

Well, for now, I plan to use only the analogue outputs of the sound card.

If, (and only if) that doesn't work for me will I look for other options. I fully expect that this will keep me happy (esp. at my current equipment level), but I'm just thinking ahead (which is dangerous, I know). In any case my current financial situation will not let me buy anything else for another 10 months to 12 months.

For just coaxial out, the Juli@ would have been quite adequate. But, I found the Xonar STX easier to locate and buy. And frankly, I was also pretty impressed with the Stereophile review of the Xonar STX which affirmed the fact that the STX will give bit-perfect output.

In any case, as I mentioned in an earlier post, DACs with USB inputs seem to be getting better and better at making music from the USB inputs (as against the coaxial/optical inputs). So, if I get a DAC in a year or so, and if I get a USB-based DAC, I can always sell the Xonar STX.

Well, it doesn't all sound very logical, but well, I don't think many of our hifi purchases are a result of very logical thoughts

 

[vasishta.sushant]

STX/ST are the best bet for the PC based audio. I would have loved to get that but I use my netbook more than my PC for my music needs so preferred to get the Streamer.

I do not think you require a DAC now. STX is a hell of a card. If you do, you would be (as you said) thinking a little too ahead and might not get much better performance.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

For just coaxial out, the Juli@ would have been quite adequate.

The Juli@ not only gives you analaogue out, it gives you a choice between balanced and unbalanced (which is probably a wasted facility to most, but hey...).

Any other negatives on that card?

it doesn't all sound very logical, but well, I don't think many of our hifi purchases are a result of very logical thoughts

If it was all down to logic, there would probably only be one of everything and no choices!

 

[arj]

ok, so the world loves this extra box called a DAC, and if you are going to feed it from USB, then it is just being half a [external] sound card anyway, but if you are going to feed it digital out from an add-in PCI sound card --- I wouldn't buy a PCI sound card that didn't have excellent analogue out in the first place, and then, guess what... I wouldn't need the DAC!

Of course, if you are going to spend a lot on that external DAC, then you probably want to spend a lot on the digital source that feeds it too.

Hey Thad,
from what I know, the power supply is extremely important in the digital domain. Considering a computer is a zoo of RFI/EMI, due to its SMPS, any digital signal is only going to be corrupted and the best way out is an USB . ..into an external DAC

else the SPDIF OR Analogue out are both going to be compromised.. the design/chip et al of the converter or dac being the only differentiators

 

[hydra]

If you do, you would be (as you said) thinking a little too ahead and might not get much better performance.

Yep. This is definitely something I have to be careful of.

Any other negatives on that card?

None that I could see. It really is one good soundcard. I was a little concerned about there being enough driver support in the future, it being a product that was launched in 2004. But really, they have drivers for Win 7 now, so I think they have their support philosophy straight. In fact we can't say that about Asus, considering the downright spotty driver support that they gave the more recent Xonar STX.

If it was all down to logic, there would probably only be one of everything and no choices!

Definitely! I guess we are all looking for a bit of song, dance and flash to go with what we buy, in addition to the real reason for the purchase

 

[venkatcr]

I wouldn't buy a PCI sound card that didn't have excellent analogue out in the first place, and then, guess what... I wouldn't need the DAC!

It is all a question of optmisation, Thad. A sound card is optimised to extract sound from the hard disk in the best possible way. Of course a sound card can have a good DAC, but that will increase the cost and size of the card, and will most probably price it out of the market. Would you buy a sound card that is priced at, say, US$1500? So the manufacturer optimises it for it's primary task which happens to be sound extraction.

Secondly, it is also a question of usage. A good DAC inside a sound card has a single use in terms of source. An external sound card can be used with multiple sources. The Arcam rDAC, for example, come with a WiFi dongle. One the other side you can connect a WiFi transmitter to an USB of your laptop, and the same DAC, can be used both for a desktop as well as a laptop. And of course, a CDP, DVDP, a media player, and other sources.

Cheers

 

[gobble]

I think you have price for ESI@Juli wrong.

Cheers

When I googled for it last fortnight, somebody had purchased it around Aug 2010 for close to this price and posted on some forum. Dont have the link.

Google Baba cannot lie.

--G

 

[ravi_d]

@venkatcr
Can you share us what amp and speakers you use in the chain you connect the DAC output to?

It is all a question of optmisation, Thad. A sound card is optimised to extract sound from the hard disk in the best possible way. Of course a sound card can have a good DAC, but that will increase the cost and size of the card, and will most probably price it out of the market. Would you buy a sound card that is priced at, say, US$1500? So the manufacturer optimises it for it's primary task which happens to be sound extraction.

Secondly, it is also a question of usage. A good DAC inside a sound card has a single use in terms of source. An external sound card can be used with multiple sources. The Arcam rDAC, for example, come with a WiFi dongle. One the other side you can connect a WiFi transmitter to an USB of your laptop, and the same DAC, can be used both for a desktop as well as a laptop. And of course, a CDP, DVDP, a media player, and other sources.
Cheers

What I heard is in a computer the sound card shares the power supply with many other components and hence the DAC on sound card can't work as good as an external DAC. The same DAC chip may work better in an external DAC as there are no size constraints and the possibility of using good power supplies and better components makes it better than sound card.

I have some confusion with the explanation here.
As per my understanding a sound card just facilitates the input and output of sound signal to and from the computer. It means it facilitates a digital audio signal to go out as an analog signal after D/A conversion and vice versa. Its the media software which you use reads the flac/mp3 files from your HDD and decodes it to PCM (or some format which is digital representation of analog signal) using the CPU cycles and then hand it over to the audio interface/ sound card. In this case a sound card is just doing the digital to analog conversion after the media software decoded your audio file.
So when you use the digital out/ co-axial out then you are just bypassing the actual purpose of a sound card.

For example consider a CD player. It has a CD Drive and a DAC section. The CD Drive reads the digital format from the CD and puts out a PCM stream to the DAC section. When you use the digital out (co-axial/ optical) the DAC section is bypassed. When you use the analog RCA output the DAC section is used.
Like wise the CD Drive functionality when using a computer is done by the media player and sent to the sound card. The sound card does the D/A conversion. When taking the digital signal from the computer I don't think the sound card has played any role there other than sending the digital stream out through its co-axial socket. So if your Mother Board doesn't have a digital out (optical/ co-axial) the sound card has provided one.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you do not have a sound card and use the MB's sound output, you will be compromising the system. As important as a DAC is, the sound card is absolutely essential for extracting the music from the CD without any noise or interference in the noisy PC atmosphere. That is where the Asus and Juli@'s score.

Of course, the whole game is different if you are using a laptop. Though I have been using an old Dell laptop using the USB through an rDAC, the soundstage, clairity, and dynamics that my desktop with STX provides is far far ahead.

Cheers

The CD quality audio you get is 16 bit 44.1kHz and HD quality is 24 bit 48kHz.

An USB/ co-axial/ optical can easily carry the max available 48kHz sample rate with ease to the external DAC. Though you using a USB or co-axial/ optical outputs its the same bits going out. My understanding on which works better (USB or optical/co-axial) is it depends on how the DAC implemented that interface.

My laptop has optical out. I run a 5m optical cable from laptop to the DAC. I use foobar2000 with WASAPI plugin installed. I don't hear the other windows noises except music from foobar. I see the true bit rate of the source/track detected by the DAC. No re-sampling done in between.

I own a decent CD Player too which is worth above 20k INR. I compared playing the same tracks from original CD's on my CD-P and the same tracks in flac format from my laptop using foobar2000. The same tracks played from the laptop sounded very close to playing from the CD-P.
Yes, the sound stage, dynamics and sound quality were close to a CD-P. What more do I want from a laptop I purchased 2.5 years ago when I don't know the purpose of an optical out is.
I tried the USB interface too but the optical is working out better for me.
I'm happy using the computer as a transport and the DAC through its optical out. I believe if a laptop with a DAC is serving to this level close to a CDP on sound quality and with the convenience of playlist and storage this is more than enough.

 

[fusioner]

@venkatcr
Can you share us what amp and speakers you use in the chain you connect the DAC output to?



What I heard is in a computer the sound card shares the power supply with many other components and hence the DAC on sound card can't work as good as an external DAC. The same DAC chip may work better in an external DAC as there are no size constraints and the possibility of using good power supplies and better components makes it better than sound card.

I have some confusion with the explanation here.
As per my understanding a sound card just facilitates the input and output of sound signal to and from the computer. It means it facilitates a digital audio signal to go out as an analog signal after D/A conversion and vice versa. Its the media software which you use reads the flac/mp3 files from your HDD and decodes it to PCM (or some format which is digital representation of analog signal) using the CPU cycles and then hand it over to the audio interface/ sound card. In this case a sound card is just doing the digital to analog conversion after the media software decoded your audio file.
So when you use the digital out/ co-axial out then you are just bypassing the actual purpose of a sound card.

For example consider a CD player. It has a CD Drive and a DAC section. The CD Drive reads the digital format from the CD and puts out a PCM stream to the DAC section. When you use the digital out (co-axial/ optical) the DAC section is bypassed. When you use the analog RCA output the DAC section is used.
Like wise the CD Drive functionality when using a computer is done by the media player and sent to the sound card. The sound card does the D/A conversion. When taking the digital signal from the computer I don't think the sound card has played any role there other than sending the digital stream out through its co-axial socket. So if your Mother Board doesn't have a digital out (optical/ co-axial) the sound card has provided one.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Exactly my thoughts. I always believed , if someone is using the digital out of a sound card, the whole purpose of the sound card is (using the DAC of the sound card) is negated and a digital out of motherboard's sound card is same as that of any high end one.

Not sure how much difference is there between the digital out of onboard sound card and the much talked about juli@ or even with that of STX.

Regarding extracting tracks from audio cd, it is always better to use Digital audio extraction (DAE) to copy audio data directly from a CD. Because it bypasses the sound card, ripping normally results in a perfect copy with no introduction of noise or loss of fidelity.
Here also there is no impact on whether one has a on board sound card or a high end one.

Digital Audio Extraction

Regarding the noise/emi interferences on digital signals on PC, not sure how much it affects digital signals. doesn't any digital audio signals is same as the other critical system/user data that flows in the system?
For analogue out section, recent sound cards do provide emi shield. STX is an example. How much effective is that is debatable.

 

[venkatcr]

Ravi and Fusioner, the points you have raised have been discussed ad-nauseum many times here at HFV, and on the Net.

Let me see if I can explain this in simple terms.

There are two aspects to a computer's out.

When you are sending data out from a computer it also contains noise. The advantage data has is two fold - one;the noise can be easily identified and removed, two; data can be verified at the receiving end and retransmitted, if needed. In addition when you are sending data, there is no DAC conversion as the receiving end also understand digital data.

When you are sending sound in digital form - the digital data is a set of discrete representation of the sound's sine wave. Even if you chop off noise above 20,000 Hz and, say, below 50 Hz, noise within the bandwidth of 50Hz to 20,000 will form part of the data that represents the sound. You cannot differentiate between actual data (signal) and noise. This is called signal to noise ratio. The higher the signal to noise ratio, the better your signal is. When you convert a noisy digital signal to analogue, you are adding noise to the sound.

A motherboard, per se, does not bother about this as it expects to transmit and receive only digital 'data'. The parts of a MB is thus optimised for speed and cost. A sound chip in a MB has to work within this restrictive environment.

A sound card, on the other hand, is optimised for the highest possible signal to noise ratio. It has it's own power supply and picks up the sound data from the hard disk at the kernel level skipping the operating system. None of the other environments of the computer has any effect on the signal.

Here is what the Asus STX does, for example.

The bottom section of the multilayer card carries the analog input circuitry, this based on a pair of R4580 low-noise dualop-amp chips, followed by a pair of 5532 dual op-amps. These feed a Cirrus Logic CS5381, a 24-bit A/D converter chip capable of operating at sample rates up to 192kHz and offering a S/N ratio of 110dB. At the bottom right of the card are two ASUS-branded LSI chips that do all the audio data processing, including Dolby Digital decoding, Dolby Headphone and Dolby Virtual Speaker processing, and Dolby Pro-Logic II, as well as volume and various reverberation and equalizer functions. Above the larger chip is the power-supply section, featuring multiple voltage-regulator chips, a large number of Nichicon Fine Gold electrolytic capacitors, and two purple Sanyo OsCon caps. As well as the attention paid to the power supply, ASUS makes much of what they call "Hyper-grounding," which minimizes noise that might degrade the analog output signal.

A high-performance, two-channel, 24-bit D/A convertera Burr-Brown PCM 1792, the same chip used in Musical Fidelity's V-DAC D/A processoris sited to the left of the supply section, adjacent to a vertical metal shielding strip. The analog output stages lie to the left of this strip and are covered by the removable cover mentioned earlier. Under the cover are two separate output stages, one for the line outs, the other for headphones. The headphone driver is a Texas Instruments TPA6120A2 chip, a current-feedback design capable of sourcing 80mWpc into 600 ohms with very low distortion. The line-level output stage is based on a pair of JRC 2114D dualop-amp chips (the 2114D is equivalent to the popular 5532 chip), followed by a pair of low-noise National LM 4562 dual op-amps. Although almost all the components used, other than the electrolytic caps, are surface-mount types, the four output-stage op-amp chips are socketed 8-pin types, to allow the owner to experiment with other pin-compatible chips.

All the parts used in a sound card such as the Asus STX are optimised to pick up the audio data and make it reach your ears with the least amount of interference.

Cheers

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

A motherboard, per se, does not bother about this as it expects to transmit and receive only digital 'data'. The parts of a MB is thus optimised for speed and cost. A sound chip in a MB has to work within this restrictive environment.

Let me put this even more simply: There is no difference in function between the "sound card" built into you mother board and anything that you fit into a PCI slot. However, consider the cost of your whole motherboard may be less than your add-in card: there is a big difference in the price of the sound components!

We hope, at least, that this does translate into a difference in quality!

I don't think I believe in a "noisy digital signal". A digital signal can have errors, but how can it have noise? Digital signal errors can de detected, even corrected: analogue noise cannot: it is just part of the sound!

Well, ok, this can be argued at an academic level. You can hear the noise that your soundcard produces by recording with no input.

Well, when I say "hear" --- if you could, without considerable amplification, then throw that card away (try one of those old, original soundblaster cards and you would!) Just... if you are being really fussy about your SNR, you can subtract that sound from a digital recording. I think the Cool Edit Pro manual suggest that this may win you an extra decibel or two of SNR.

It is perfectly true that the inside of a PC cabinet is a mess of electrical noise. It might be true that this translates into a a lower SNR on the analogue outs of your sound card. However, to say that it does and will, and spend money on an external DAC without even trying it, is just giving in to the people who market DACs!

All I'm against is the attitude, "ignore those analogue outs, because they won't be any good." Try them first! It is quite possible that the fans in your PC are adding more noise to your listening experience than your sound card is!

If the external DAC is a central part of a multiple-digital-source setup ... that is a different thing, and the PC becomes something that you just don't need anything but digital signal from.

 

[venkatcr]

All I'm against is the attitude, "ignore those analogue outs, because they won't be any good." Try them first! It is quite possible that the fans in your PC are adding more noise to your listening experience than your sound card is!

Thad, what I was trying to impress here is that a sound card works better than a motherboard in extracting sound as people were talking about an USB output from the PC/Laptop itself. That is all.

BTW the fan noise is an audible noise. We are talking about electrical noises.

Cheers

 

[arj]

for the best USB output it is recommended to put an outboard PCI USB card rather than the regular M/B USB
BTW A Squeeebox is also a great option for computer transports as this way the Dac/converter is far away from the computer.

I guess we are OT..but is there a consenses here that all components in the chain are important and hence only the DAC/source may not bring the benefit untill we are sure the source is the bottleneck ?

I personally found that better power supply to my existing source is what brought the best dynamics (Micro and Macro) as well as reduced the noise floor.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Venkat... not sure about "extracting" sound: binary data is binary data.

As to noise... surely it is only the non-audible noise that matters!

 

[ravi_d]

Ravi and Fusioner, the points you have raised have been discussed ad-nauseum many times here at HFV, and on the Net.

It may have been discussed many times. But I can't find comparison between using the on-board spdif out vs the spdif out on audiophile sound cards. Most of the topics were related to how good the new audiophile sound card worked over the built in sound card or suggesting some audiophile sound card to get the best of the computer audio or related to getting an spdif out using a cheap sound card for connecting an external DAC.

I'm specifically looking for the advantages of the audiophile sound card like Asus Xonar STX spdif out making its DAC redundant vs the on-board spdif and not on-board sound card vs an audiophile sound card.

All the parts used in a sound card such as the Asus STX are optimised to pick up the audio data and make it reach your ears with the least amount of interference.

I do understand an audiophile sound card has good components.
During playback using itunes/foobar the sound card works as an output device facilitating the digital audio stream to be converted to analog output.

Irrespective of you have an audiophile sound card or an onboard sound card its the software player you use which extracts the flac/mp3 files from disc and sending the digital audio stream to the audio interface (sound card) after decoding the flac/mp3 format using its decoder.

When using a standard/on-board soundcard the windows mixer comes into play and re-samples the digital audio stream to its standard sampling frequency say 44.1kHz and converts to an analog signal.

Now say your audiophile sound card has a mechanism to bypass the windows mixer and the windows re-sampler and the ability to put out the audio stream with out re-sampling.
For those who don't have an additional sound card with that functionality there are plug-in's like WASAPI/ASIO to help do the same thing of bypassing the windows mixer and re-sampler.
When taking the digital signal directly from the spdif out in both cases (having an additional sound card or not) we are by-passing the DAC and analog output stages of the sound card.

So foobar helped in decoding the flac file from the HDD and putting it as a digital stream to the audio interface. The ASIO/WASAPI is helping in bypassing the windows mixer and re-sampler putting out the exact sample rate as the source track.
If having an audiophile sound card when using an spdif out though how good the parts it has the power regulators, DAC chips, opamps, output stages they are all redundant now.

I would like to know what part did the audiophile sound card played exactly in improving the sound quality when bypassing its DAC?

When talking about the EMI interference the asus website says it has shielding only for the analog output stage. Even that is redundant when using spdif out.

So bypassing the DAC on a 7k INR sound card is like using only less than 700 INR worth of its capability making its 6k+ INR worth of its functionality redundant. The ADC is any way never used.

Even the Stereophile review says the Xonar Essence STX and Essence ST soundcards are by far the least expensive way of turning a PC into a genuine high-resolution audio source. No review told to buy the best sound card and bypass its DAC.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

When talking about the EMI interference the asus website says it has shielding only for the analog output stage. Even that is redundant when using spdif out.

Well, quite.

Forgive any spelling mistakes in this post: blame the EMI in my computer cabinet!

I can understand that an add-in card may give different formats of digital output. I can understand it including options of stuff like multi-tracking for studios (much of the high end add-in card market seems to be aimed at home or even pro studio market) --- but I cannot understand that the digital stream is going to be any different.

Even the Stereophile review says the Xonar Essence STX and Essence ST soundcards are by far the least expensive way of turning a PC into a genuine high-resolution audio source. No review told to buy the best sound card and bypass its DAC.

I'm sure that many such DACS (and probably more than a few quite respectable ones in CD players etc) are completely wasted --- because people have fallen for the DAC marketing to the extent that they now fail to even see the ones they have already --- as per the regular "Do I need a DAC" queries.