Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

I kind of agree with square_wave on this. Musical Fidelity is just okay sounding to be honest - especially the newer ones. I have one in my bedroom - the original A1 integrated. It sounds nice but its not for critical listening. I'd never dream of running my main setup with it. Its not very refined and can sound harsh occasionally in difficult passages.
 
Hi guys,

What's then coming out? All of you do not have to agree with each other on a particular amp. If you differ on some amp, let us know. It's important for the rest of us to know what is the impression of people who have appreciable knowledge and experience in a particular topic, in this case the amps.

However, I have a very important question, basically the question that I started the thread with. Is there an upgrade from a 20-25K amp (in this case a Nad c325bee) without going to the multi-lakh region? Isn't there anything in the vicinity of a lakh (plus minus 20K)?

If the answer is NO, please explain why.

If the answer is YES, please mention what are the possibilities.

I think a lot of people will benefit from this discussion. Obviously, everybody's take on it is not expected to be the same. Ultimately I suppose the individual takes his own decision based on valuable inputs from forums like these, users' reviews, auditioning, budgetary conditions, serviceability etc.
 
Asit,
This is a problem everyone faces while on a purchase or upgrade. My humble opinion is that there is no alternative to hearing it yourself. Especially since you are in it for a long time now and want a meaningful upgrade. Everyone will wax eloquent about they gear they prefer. I feel you need to talk to audiophiles who listen to your kind of music and find what they think about their gear preferences.
A hardcore audiophile and a music lover may want different gear. A classical lover may prefer a certain kind of gear while a rock lover may want something else. A classical listener who is a hard-core audiophile (one who is always calibrating his system with classical test dics) may prefer something else to someone who is looking for an emotional connection with the music.

BTW: I have almost always seen TUBES somewhere in systems used by classical music lovers. I feel you should be open to tubes as well.
 
Hi again,
There is no 'perfect' amp and even great amps have people who love them and some who dont think much of them.
I thought the MF A 5.5 with MA/Morel sounded good when i heard it. (With Jazz )
I thought the Primare Int with Pro acs and B&W sounded nice with softish rock/ classical when a friend was checking them out.
I like the Neutrality/power of the Bryston combo with my bookshelves for 70/80 % of my music which i feel is good enough.
Have heard various Marantz combo for Jazz and it always sounds good and i also like Arcam gear for what its worth.
As mentioned by SW above Asit will have to get down to hearing all these amps to figure out the one that rocks his boat.
Rgds
 
hi asit
though some great options have been suggested , let me add one more. i also listen to a lot of jazz and hindustani classical on a system which most audiophiles dont consider good for audio.
denon pma ivr integrated
denon cdp700ae
definitive technology 7004 towers.
classical music is detailed, full range, great sounstage(it took me a long time to get the bipolar speakers placed perfectly).
the denon+deftech combination compares well with my friend's nad 370 + focal chorus combination,
with more details, better bass, larger soundstage etc.
so, in my opinion its the combo that matters,
only upgrade when you hit the right combination wth substantially better sound
 
Only one suggestion while you are auditioning:
1. Do not focus on individual areas of the musical presentation. Like how tight the bass is or how airy the treble is and so onThis can throw you off.
2. Focus on how closer the gear is bringing you to the music. Each upgrade to better gear should lift one or two veils in between you and the music. The music should sound more real. It is like focusing the lens in a camera. Better gear is like a turn of the lens towards the correct focus. Everything will start coming into focus. The instruments and voice start getting more true. The blackness between all the different sounds will emerge and each instrumental sound gets focused into its own place in the soundstage.
3. Focus on how your mind gets connected to the music. If the gear sounds indifferent avoid it. There are a lot of gear out there which gets most audiophile lingo (the above) correct but may not connect you with the music. Typically these are gear which sounds much focused but have the wrong tone. This is a kind of measuring which you can do with your brain which is the most sensitive and advanced measuring equipment in the world. Believe in it. If it does not move you, avoid it.
 
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Thanks everybody for your recent inputs.

sq_wave, I am not closed to tubes. However I have no experience with that stuff, so obviously there is a block in my mind, that's all.

I know how music should sound on high-end gears, because in the last thirty years I have had opportunities to hear them sporadically (mostly when I was abroad, and now on foreign trips). However, I never paid much attention to which brand or which models I was auditioning. In that sense, I am really inexperienced, and paid attention only to the music I was listening to. I guess I would never like to be an audiophile, I am just a music lover.

It has done me one thing good. I understood the importance of speaker boxes. I know it does not make sense to buy an amp costing say 2x and pairing it with a pair of speakers worth only x. I suppose many of the conclusions people draw about the electronics are flawed because of this.
Within my very limited budget I have always tried to maintain this. Even for my little nad paired with my excellent Cantons, I can say, for example when the music is not tricky (definitely not a plucked instruments, because plucked instruments have very complicated dynamics, especially at fast speed like the fast jhala part of a sitar recital), with all its well-known limitations that people (even including me) have pointed out, it reproduces the music reasonably well, thanks to the speakers.

I like to know your opinion on the YBA Design YA 201 integrated amp (100wpc@8) available in India at 1.1L (Mumbai based distributor). YBA Design electronics is now desgned in France but manufactured in the East (China?) and that has reduced the price from astronomical numbers.

Reviews are superlative from experts and users alike. Only some users have complained that its true sparkle really comes out at slightly higher volume levels, so for people who like to hear at low volumes, it may not be the right choice. I like to hear at moderate volume (not too low), because with the kind of gear I have the dynamics does not come out at very low volumes.

If anybody has any opinion on these, please let me know.

Oh, I forgot to mention that although I listen primarily to Indian classical music, I generally listen to many other kinds (but mostly serious music) including Western Classical. When I was abroad, I had a lot of interaction with Western classical musicians and musicologists (so much so that I got invited to conferences for musicologists and I formally taught what they call ethnomusicology at the Ohio State University graduate school when I was a graduate student in Physics). So I guess getting a gear just for Indian Classical music would not do, if there is such a thing.

Auditions should start ideally now. Unfortunately it may get delayed by some other factors, but when and if I do audition, I will post my report.
 
Here is a link to the Harbeth user forum. Lot of classical music listeners there..:)
Heres a question on amplifiers someone had asked. You could look for pointers.
Amplifier selection for your Harbeths (general, not specific Harbeth models) - Harbeth: made in the UK since 1977 - the world's most natural sounding loudspeakers.
I know someone using the YBA with Linn speakers. He is happy. He has got very critical ears so that amplifier must be good. He makes interconnects, speaker cables etcand use this system for testing etc.

BTW: There are a lot of classical listeners(western and others) among the cadence audio customers and they seem to be quite happy.:)
Shindo is also very popular but they are quite expensive.
 
Hi dinyaar,
Thanks for your recent post as always. Can you compare the arcam a38 with the YBA Design YA201 integrated mentioned in my post above (if you heard the YBA, that is). Pricewise they are similar.

I got the following contacts for the Indian importer based in Mumbai:

PREETI TRADING CORPORATION
2, VAKIL BUILDING, 1, AVANTIKABAI GOKHALE STREET, OPERA HOUSE, MUMBAI 400004
Tl : +912226108820
Kamal Dhingreja
([email protected])
Welcome to Preeti Trading Corpn.

The connection from my mobile phone this afternoon was not great, but I talked to the guy and he told me that they keep the Passion and the Design series (and do not keep the signature series because there are no takers for such expensive stuff: just curious, how obscenely expensive can they be?).
He also mentioned something to the effect that auditions were possible at their dealers in mumbai. There was so much noise, I did not want to extend the conversation for long. Just because you are in Mumbai, do you know any such dealers?
 
Hi Asit,
Ya i heard the YBA design integrated and cdp. The Bbay dealer is Boomerang. He also sells Arcam and Musical Fidelity so we have heard all three with MA gold bookshelves and Dali Helicons.
As u mentioned this YBA design is different from normal YBA in every way. HAd heard the Passion(400 i think) a while ago in Paris and it was superb but at 6500 Euro !!!!
YBA is a smooth sounding amp much like the MF. If choosing between the two i would pick the A5.5 as it seems better to me as a one box solution.
Once again i mention that i like Arcam and i am a minority in my group of friends who feel its the best lullaby one can get. It always puts them to sleep.My cousin bought the A38 last weekend and i had it in my set up for 2 days before i set it up at his place. I loved the simple, no fuss integrated.
Just remember its a small amp so cannot expect miracles. Lovely treble, decent mids and good bass. Should work with most fairly sensitive speakers in moderately sized rooms. Great build quality and should last. The amps are made in UK and the cdps in taiwan i think. MF and yba design are china/taiwan too.
Hope this helps
Rgds
 
Hi dinyaar, thanks for the quick response. Boy, Boomarang seems the store to go to. They apparently keep a whole lot of stuff I want to listen to. Only thing is it's now not at all certain when I can come to Mumbai. It may be a quite a while. Anyway, I am not in a great hurry.

It would have been great if they also carried the CA740c so that I could listen to the synergy between my CDP and all these amps. That is the best I could do, since I cannot carry my Cantons to Mumbai. I wish we had a store like that in Kolkata.
 
Hey! I know you are goin to hate me again to ask to add to your audition list:D But how about the Audire stuff the would fall under your budget but again i suppose geting an audition could be tough :D unless ofcourse you can trace a user at Kolkota.
Sorry & Cheers
 
Hi Himadri,

I am sorry to respond to your input late. Some other discussion was going on when your input came in, and I somehow missed responding to you. I usually like to reply to all responses to my posts and queries.

I am not sure which Denon amp you are referring to, the one that comes to my mind would be PMA 2000 AE which has good reviews but a bit pricier in India than the integrateds I am considering. Of late their focus has been on AV sector, although they are still producing good stereo products. But there was a time about 20 years ago when they were producing really very very good 2-channel products. I had a CD player (DCD 920, about 800-900 German Marks in 1990) which lasted a long time and I will have a hard time now to convince people how good it was. There is a guy in the Whathifi forum by the name mathewpiano who has a PMA 1500 AE and DCD 1500 AE combo and is very happy about them.

There is also the recent Yamaha 2000 amp which is also a bit pricey. I have heard good things about it too.

There are so many options these days, after a while nobody has the time and energy to investigate all those. This is one aspect hardly discussed. My motto is to get a few demoed with as much equality as possible with the accompanying gears and compare with own CD's (the ones you know every phrase of) and if I am happy with one, just buy it if it's within budget.
I do not go around and audition every equipment that is there. Firstly, it is a nearly impossible task, and then even if it is possible by some miracle, one cannot judge every equipment fairly, because conditions change substantially between the first piece auditioned and the last.

This is precisely what happens in an interview board when you have to interview 20-25 people in a matter of a few hours. It is hard, if not impossible, to decide on the most deserving candidates.

That's why prior to auditioning, proper home work is necessary which includes discussion in a forum like this and inputs from real experts who have experimented with or have heard the particular kind of equipments many times so far. I am really a novice in this, and I like to get as many opinions as I can get. I do not get confused because nobody is forcing their opinion on me. I can choose and drop any opinion on the basis of my own judgement, budget and other factors like availability of auditioning etc. People are spending their valuable time to give their opinion to help me and this service is free, incredible!

Hi neo, I wouldn't hate you for putting in Audire. Sq-wave has also suggested Cadence, although a bit softly. I have a special interest in Indian top quality products. I read venkat's review with deep interest a few months or weeks back. The problem is auditioning. There is about zero chance of me being in Coimbatore now or in the next few months.
 
Sq-wave has also suggested Cadence, although a bit softly. I have a special interest in Indian top quality products. I read venkat's review with deep interest a few months or weeks back. The problem is auditioning. There is about zero chance of me being in Coimbatore now or in the next few months.

The first system I know owned by a complete classical listener was a cadence anina with audio analogue Puccini and a marantz cd6000ose. This was a gentleman in his mid 40s and he had a massive western classical cd collection. This was some five years back when I used to own wharfedale diamond 8.4 with the nad c350 and a modded marantz cd player. I was amazed at the quality of presentation. Far beyond anything my system could do. From what I have heard from Jochen who is the dealer for cadence in Bangalore, there are a lot of classical listeners among the cadence user base. I have always been impressed by the cadence systems with Jazz and western classical. Tubes and electrostatic panels do very well with classical. Hence the suggestion.
 
Hi sq_wave, ROC and anybody else willing to join in a tube(d) discussion,

Since my auditions are getting delayed a bit due to my son's board exam situation, and since you guys have been encouraging me to look at the tube options as well, I thought why not learn a bit about them as well. So I went and just started looking around. Again here I suspect the main problem would be auditioning because in Kolkata I am not sure what is available.

Do you think a 12 wpc Leben CS300 integrated can drive my 4 Ohm 93.4 db/W/m speakers. I learnt it has an impedance switch (8,6 and 4)? How much does it retail for in India? Is it available here? Does anybody have it? (Since I have little experience with tubes, that 12wpc is a petrifying information for me).

Apparently there is a dealer (Digital Acoustics) for Cadence in Kolkata. If I can manage to drag myself to that part of the city, which Cadence I should look for?

BTW, do not forget my budget which I have increased a fair bit from the initial estimates, and do not assume much of a headroom there.
 
Hi sq_wave, ROC and anybody else willing to join in a tube(d) discussion,

Since my auditions are getting delayed a bit due to my son's board exam situation, and since you guys have been encouraging me to look at the tube options as well, I thought why not learn a bit about them as well. So I went and just started looking around. Again here I suspect the main problem would be auditioning because in Kolkata I am not sure what is available.

Do you think a 12 wpc Leben CS300 integrated can drive my 4 Ohm 93.4 db/W/m speakers. I learnt it has an impedance switch (8,6 and 4)? How much does it retail for in India? Is it available here? Does anybody have it? (Since I have little experience with tubes, that 12wpc is a petrifying information for me).

Apparently there is a dealer (Digital Acoustics) for Cadence in Kolkata. If I can manage to drag myself to that part of the city, which Cadence I should look for?

BTW, do not forget my budget which I have increased a fair bit from the initial estimates, and do not assume much of a headroom there.

Not sure about the Leben CS300 but the CS600 should easily drive the speaker (32Wx2). Its available from ARN Systems bangalore. Though a little pricey (~5000 USD and a similar indian price), its a lovely integrated. Its probably my favorite integrated within a sane price. Contact Sridhar for more info.
 
Hi ROC,

Thanks for the response. The CS600, although must be something superlative, is more than twice my budget. The CS300 could have been considered if the price is right and it can drive the speakers.

Are there other suggestions?

Where is that sq_wave? Haven't seen him around for days. I guess some of the important sine-wave components that would make up the sq_wave (when superposed) are missing!
 
Hi everybody,

Here is a write-up of my first audition in search of a new amp. Last Saturaday (Shukla Panchami) it was the Saraswati puja in our housing complex, so after the community lunch with khichuri, mixed vegetable and rosogolla, I went out to SKS traders to audition the Quad 99 pre/909 power amps. The store previously called me to let me know that their discounted price on the combo was now 1.1L and urged me come and audition. Although people on this forum are not that upbeat about the combo, I thought a liitle audition cannot do any harm, so I went there with a number of good quality redbook CDs.

The CDP used were 1) Cayin CD 50T, and 2) CA Dacmagic with the Cayin CDP as transport. The speakers were Epos M12.2. Interconnects were XLO and speaker cables were from Ecosse. I did not check the exact numbers on the cables.

The pre and the power was initially hooked up by the stock Quadlink cable and later switched to a good quality interconnect. The quadlink connection was not really up to the mark. Everybody should use a good quality interconnect to connect the pre and the power amps.

The 6 CDs I had were male vocals, female vocals, instrumental music (sitar, African guitar from Ali Farka Torre), chorus vocals etc. I listened in all for 3 hours from 3:30PM to about 6:30PM.

The power amp was quite powerful, enough reserves of power. Dynamic range was simply tremendous and the sound was very detailed and full-throated. As I have mentioned before, when the sitar string is plucked, there is a huge burst of energy that is released. This sound then continues with the help of other strings which are specifically there for sympathetic vibration. The extension was beautiful.

The partcular sitar CD I am talking about here was by Nikhil Banerjee (tabla accompaniment by Anindo Chatterjee) recorded in Stuttgart in early 1980s. Everybody who has heard Nikhil Banerjee live would know that his sitar has a particular tonality, and this came out perfectly with the large dynamic range, fullness, correct timbre and an unearthly extension. This is something I really miss in my Nad integrated. Perhaps one should not expect the same kind of dynamic range from a low powered integrated and also the fullness of the sound, however I was missing the tonality on my integrated.

The male vocal was by Jasraj with vocal support by Shweta Jhaveri, again recorded in Stuttgart. I cannot say Jasraj is among my absolute favorites, but I used it because it is a tricky CD. Initially the volume is very low, and Jasrajji goes to the lower octave with a silky softness and stays there. I have heard all these artistes live and without microphones (including Shweta, who used to have one of the loveliest female voices I have ever heard) and I am very familiar with their tonal qualities.

The voices came out absolutely beautifully with all the requirements satisfied. The details on the vocals did not make it sound harsh though. When Jasraji came to the middle octave and started using transients with a full throated voice, that was also captured in its entirety and with good speed.

Separation of instruments and voices were good, but not spectacular. The imaging and soundstage was reasonable, again not spectacular, although I really do not know how much of these really depend on the recordings. For example Jasraji seemed to be positioned more to the left than centre etc.

However, as much as I like the amps, the combo was not that quiet in my evaluation. By that I mean the sound was not perhaps the most transparent. Is it due to the pre-amp? I remember dinyaar mentioning somethibg about the pre-amp. Ideally I would like a cleaner, more transparent sound. I do not know if this is possible within my budget keeping in mind that I also want the dynamic range, detail and the full sound experience I had from the quad combo.

Then, yesterday morning, before going out for my high school reunion in the afternoon, I did another experiment with same CDs at home. I changed my Nad amp with my 19 year old Harman Kardon HK 6300 amp. I was in for a big surprise. With my CA 740c CDP it actually did produce a very clean, yet powerful sound with a very decent dynamic range. I thought (as many people say it in this forum) the sound would be harsh. It was not harsh at all, the sound was very pleasant, however perhaps a little leaner (a winny bit) than the Nad.

I suppose when I bought my nad amp, at that time my cdp already started giving me trouble and that time onwards I was mostly using the cheap sony dvdp as my source. Probably because of the bad source the HK produced a harsh sound. Then with the purchase of the nad amp, things got sweeter, but actually this happened for a wrong reason, because the nad was coloring the sound, I guess. What other conclusion can be drawn from this?

From yesterday, I have put my nad back to the boxpack, and I am now listening from the HK amp. Does anybody know about these very old HK amps? This morning I was checking out the specs, and I found out that for this 60wpc amp, the transient high current can be as high as 38 Ampere. That's something, isn't it? I think it easily beats my nad amp by a country mile in many things, like cleanliness of the sound, tonality of the voices and all instruments, transient power for the dynamic range. The nad beats it in one area only I think, and that is the soundstage. The nad produces a huge soundstage. But with the HK it's not that bad either.

Now I know how I could live with my HK for such a long time. The nad was not the correct replacement, I would say. But my recent CDP upgrade (CA 740c) was the correct one within my budget.

Have I got insane? Liking the so-called harsh HK amp more than the nad? Why am I finding what I am finding? Are my evaluations all wrong? Am I now brainwashed to denounce the nad? Experts, please help and explain why this is happening to me.
 
Asit,
You are not going insane :) NAD is not the most transparent amp compared to other even entry level Marantz or Cambridge Audio. The reason still NAD is liked by me and others is because of that color it adds which makes the BEE series a fun and excited one to listen to it.
 
Hi Asit,
Firstly ur posts are always a good read and the descriptions/opinions expressed are frank and informative.

Your old HK 60 wpc amp being better than the Nad integrated does not surprise me. Old HK( even the 90s versions) were very good and had tremendous drive/current. I too had one and its still in service at my cousins home. My amp was bought in Denmark in 1994/5 though i dont remember the model no. I doubt u are going insane!!!!!! My ears play tricks on me too. There are times/days i love a combo and then on somedays i dont.

Now regarding the quads. Just yesterday i went over to assist an old 'audionut' (as i call him ) re arrange his system (for god knows what reason). He is almost 70 and is one of the most informative people i know when it comes to audio. The guy has equipment coming out of his ears and he insists that the quad 909 (he has the monos) are one of the best when it comes to a 'true' reproduction of music. He openly admits that he loves a sound that is romantic/lush (even if coloured as many claim) more than a correct, neutral sound that many including me are after. Now the man has an inventory of amps i.e audio note 18 w monos, mcintosh MC 275 and the quad monos to mention a few and i highly regard his views. If u subscribe to his line of thinking the quad amps will work very well for u. I thought the sound was too lush/bloated (as my ears are now used to a different signature) but it was musical at all times and excelled with vocals.
However the power switch on the amps is located on the rear at the most ridiculous place and the amps are Made in china.
Mr Binoy Mehra(on this forum) is keen on selling his 909 stereo. Maybe u could PM him.
Rgds
 
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