Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

Hi Sridhar,

Thanks for the concern. I actually got your point about the implementation, but wrote it in a hurry in a wrong way and realized it right away, but had no time to edit because had to get off.

I forgot to mention one thing I found out about the Leben cs300. I think they recommend speakers with more than 92 db sensitivity. Will confirm it from the net.
 
I forgot to mention one thing I found out about the Leben cs300. I think they recommend speakers with more than 92 db sensitivity. Will confirm it from the net.

Asit, it has very easily run 87dB speakers in a decent room...found this out while researching my amp.
 
Hey square_wave,

How did you find the Operetta amp? Can you explain its signature? Can you compare it with anything else? What sort of cheaper pre it may go well with?
May be you can answer this in my amp thread or wherever.

Sorry Cranky, I had to ask the question, but did not know how to transport the quote to my amp thread?

Hey square_wave,

How did you find the Operetta amp? Can you explain its signature? Can you compare it with anything else? What sort of cheaper pre it may go well with?
May be you can answer this in my amp thread or wherever.

Sorry Cranky, I had to ask the question, but did not know how to transport the quote to my amp thread?

Moving this answer here from the other thread.

To put it correctly, the operetta sounded like a well implemented Class D amp. Very similar to the nu-force amp I had listened amp some moons back. Solid state power without any glare or brightness. It was doing lot of things right with the shindo preamp and driving the Mini dancers. I have not done an A/B with any other solid state amplifier. The only AB/ was against the Shindo power amp. This is not a fair comparison. The shindo pre/power is made for each other and there is a certain magic/realism to the sound. Unless we get a preamplifier which match the operetta, I cant really gauge the potential of the amp. But my initial impressions are very positive.
Going cheap with a preamp would be to go the passive route or DIY. Anything else would be a catastrophe. I cant think of any good branded active preamp under 50k.
I know someone who is using a super expensive passive preamp by MFA (music first audio) who thinks highly of the Prometheus passives. They are usually overlooked because they are not very expensive.
Great budget passive preamp:
Reference TVC
Sale at promithius audio
http://www.promitheusaudio.com/sale.html
 
Agree that passive pre-amps go very well with Class D amplification, which a) does not really need any additional warmth to be injected into the signal chain, and b) does not need the gain that any active pre would provide.

Tube pres in any case need to be partnered with care as there could be impedance match issues.
 
Hi square_wave,

Thanks for the reference to the other forum. The discussion there was very informative for me. I am trying to assimilate all the information about class D, active/passive pre-amp, impedance matching etc.

I looked at the Promitheus site you mentioned, The Reference TVC Ref 5 (with 4 RCA inputs) seems to be the most appropriate. According to the discussion in the other forum, one of the members has ordered one of the Reference TVC preamps.

I got two questions:
1) Does anybody keep these pre-amps here in India or you have to mail-order?
2) What are the relevant important specs for a passive pre-amp?
 
Hi Asit,
I am a bit new to Passives. You could try registering on that site and talking to some people there especially milpai who has ordered one. Most members of this forum are members there too. Atleast follow that thread. Lots of relevant questions have been asked.

If I am in your shoes with around a lakh to spend, I would be looking at a Prometheus passive and a power amp like the odyssey.
In my honest opinion, this will be far more accurate and true to music than any integrated amp.
Two reasons:
1. These being small high quality manufacturers would have invested more money in parts quality than mass market biggie brands.
2. Designs are proven with a huge following among the audiophile community. Especially the underground audiophile group. Check the audiocircles to see what people have been replacing and bringing these into their system.
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=130.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=10.0
 
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If I am in your shoes with around a lakh to spend, I would be looking at a Prometheus passive and a power amp like the odyssey.
In my honest opinion, this will be far more accurate and true to music than any integrated amp.

Hi square_wave,

Again two questions:

1) Which Odyssey power amp would you be recommending? The Khartago or the Stratos? I thought the Stratos alone would consume my budget.

2) Are you recommending Odyssey over the Operetta, because of some particular reasons or since you have listened to the Odyssey amps longer at ARN or at your friends' place and reckon that's a safer bet?
 
Asit great thread and eagerly awaiting your next round of auditions. BTW I was wondering what kind of music do you listen to. Can you list some of your favorite artists/albums?
 
Hi square_wave,

Again two questions:

1) Which Odyssey power amp would you be recommending? The Khartago or the Stratos? I thought the Stratos alone would consume my budget.

2) Are you recommending Odyssey over the Operetta, because of some particular reasons or since you have listened to the Odyssey amps longer at ARN or at your friends' place and reckon that's a safer bet?

The odyssy stratos with caps upgrade. This is called the plus version.I use one in my system. It will be around 70k. The operetta is also a fine amplifier. But my experience with it is very limited hence the suggestion.
Stratos is a symphonic line design and I have extensive experience with it.
 
Hi Guys,
Was wondering if Asit has been able to audition any more gear. I guess not.
I dont know Asit at all but from what i read about his auditions i feel he will be happy with the so called 'british' sounding HIFI or if he is adventurous then with tubes. I doubt a Bryston/stratos type of amplifier will appeal to him. I know i recommended a used Bryston earlier but now i have my doubts.

Plus he has a sensitive speaker and a simple 100 W musical SS or 40/45 W tube will be more than enough. Maybe i will be wrong and he would end up with a 300 W brute but i really have my doubts.

Now over to Asitji.
Rgds
 
Asit great thread and eagerly awaiting your next round of auditions. BTW I was wondering what kind of music do you listen to. Can you list some of your favorite artists/albums?

I also think the thread is indeed going very nice, my contribution though is very minimal. The thread is great because the quality of the responses I have been getting from the members has been great. My little contribution could be that I have remained responsive to almost all suggestions and have encouraged discussions.

These discussions have helped me learn about many amps (and not only that, many things about the subject of amps) and I think many others who want to know more about amps would also immensely benefit from these discussions.

On behalf of all who are in the same ignorance-boat of amp-knowledge, I really like to thank all the contributors, and urge them to keep it going. My wife though thinks that of late I have gone nuts, although she likes music very much, it's difficult for her to understand what's in it so much to get excited about in an uninteresting-looking rectangular box with a few knobs in the front. I am getting some support from my son though.

Moser, I mostly listen to Indian classical music. I would say about 80% of my source material (Cassettes, CDs, LPs, and some 24/96 music on hard disc) is in Indian classical music. The rest is everything: Western classical, Hindi pop, folk, .... .

I have listed a few of my musical preferences both in North Indian and Karnatic classical music in the following two threads:

1) http://www.hifivision.com/music/3513-indian-classical-music.html

2) http://www.hifivision.com/music/2946-south-indian-carnatic-classical-music.html
 
Hi Guys,
Was wondering if Asit has been able to audition any more gear. I guess not.
I dont know Asit at all but from what i read about his auditions i feel he will be happy with the so called 'british' sounding HIFI or if he is adventurous then with tubes. I doubt a Bryston/stratos type of amplifier will appeal to him. I know i recommended a used Bryston earlier but now i have my doubts.

Plus he has a sensitive speaker and a simple 100 W musical SS or 40/45 W tube will be more than enough. Maybe i will be wrong and he would end up with a 300 W brute but i really have my doubts.

Now over to Asitji.
Rgds

So the amp thread has given me a title of "ji" to be added after my name! :cool:

Well, Kolkata has nothing more to offer in this price range at the moment. Vasu offered me an invitation some 10 days ago to go to his place to audition the Cadence amp-speakers combo, which I still intend to do. But apart from that I do not see much more in the horizons for quite a while, because my son's board exams (CBSE 12) are about to begin in about a week and although we are trying very hard to keep an atmosphere of sanity around the house, I presume it will hit us and hit us hard at some point.

Is there really a British sound as opposed to an American or Canadian sound?
Well I liked my old HK ahead of the British Nad, didn't I? The HK was sure NOT built in the UK, probably in Germany or in the US.

Dinyaar, if you really ask me what I want, I would say I want the music to take over. One way to interpret that is, I want something reasonable and reliable. Buy it and then forget about it, the way I have been all these years.

I would say, I would like the Bryston or the Stratos sound. It is nearly impossible to find an user around the globe who would find a Bryston or an Odyssey Stratos poor sounding. And by nature I have not been very fussy with my equipments so far.

The least I can say is that I think I would prefer very much a cleaner sound than I have heard so far in my auditions, if that is possible within my budget. But I would not be unhappy at all with the Cayin or the Quad, both would provide a significant upgrade, I think. However, I am not averse to going for better, if that is available.
 
Asit (Ji !),
it would be impossible for you to get the amp with "magic" without listening to it yourselves... while there are many options available they better remain options unless you are able to listen to it in your room with your speakers ..so better to explore your Kolkotta options for the time being !

If those do not work out..then you can work out the Prima Luna or Leben options as both of these are known to have the Magic with the power your speakers should be comfortable with. The Redwine Audio Int Amp is also supposed to be a great one for sound. i personaly amd not aware of the other amps discussed and they may be very good too.

I personally will not recommend a Pre=Power combination unless they are proven to have worked well together ! the more the number of components the more "Complicated" things become so an Int Amp should be your first choice for the time being, considering the limited options to do a personal audition ..especially as you are more of a music lover (at a highly evolved stage)than someone who would want to spend time with the technicalities of equipment !
 
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Asit (Ji !),
it would be impossible for you to get the amp with "magic" without listening to it yourselves... while there are many options available they better remain options unless you are able to listen to it in your room with your speakers ..so better to explore your Kolkotta options for the time being !

If those do not work out..then you can work out the Prima Luna or Leben options as both of these are known to have the Magic with the power your speakers should be comfortable with. The Redwine Audio Int Amp is also supposed to be a great one for sound. i personaly amd not aware of the other amps discussed and they may be very good too.

I personally will not recommend a Pre=Power combination unless they are proven to have worked well together ! the more the number of components the more "Complicated" things become so an Int Amp should be your first choice for the time being, considering the limited options to do a personal audition ..especially as you are more of a music lover (at a highly evolved stage)than someone who would want to spend time with the technicalities of equipment !

Well, arj, I have tried to understand your point of view. Sure, it is very unlikely that I would end up buying something without having a listen, with or without my speakers.

Unfortunately, there are too few an option in Kolkata. Imagine the limiting case of an audio enthusiast (and/or music lover) living in a place where there is absolutely nothing available. Even today in different forums I find such people (remote places in Europe and in Canada) and ultimately they get themselves some equipments that they ultimately can live with. Of course, to come to a solution, the standard method has to be mended a bit to obtain a result, otherwise there would be a null result.

Now there are two more issues you have touched upon, one is the pre/power and the other is my speakers.

I am pretty sure my speakers are the only pair of Canton Karat 60 speakers in India and they are not small and reasonably heavy (about 35 kilos for the pair). Now if I stick to the view that I will buy an amp only after an audition with my speakers then I got only two options so far, the quad combo (99/909) and the Cayin A-88T. SKS Traders consented to come for home auditions the last time I spoke to them.

But here I like to say something about SKS. The salesperson is quite accommodative, but I did not have a good taste with the little interaction I have had with the owner, he comes across as a snob to me and seemingly would have very little understanding for a customer like me. A few months ago, when I was looking for a CDP, the salesperson in fact promised me that he would get the Marantz 7001 (forgot if it was KI) CDP from the owner's place to the showroom for my audition (the owner apparently upgraded to the 15 S1 CDP). But when I came to the store for that audition, the salesperson told me that he could not get it because the owner apparently did not agree. On the day of the Quad audition he came to the showroom for a short while when our auditions were over. He talked to the salesperson but did not speak to me at all even though he noticed me and there was nobody else in view. He is a very difficult person to talk to, and only once before after about a month's try I had the opportunity of talking to him over the phone on a few cables I bought from them.

So I have no idea whether all of a sudden the owner would instruct the salesperson that there would be no home audition for me. They cater to the needs of people with a lot bigger budget, I know. For example, before I went for the Cayin audition, the salesperson invited me to the owner's home for an audition with Dynaudio Contour series floorstanders, because there was an audition arranged for another guy having the same amp interested in those speakers ( I have written about this before). After thinking hard, I actually did not go, because I did not think I would be perfectly comfortable with the people there and I did not really know how welcome I would be there. Well, what I keep hearing from the salesperson, they get expensive stuff from the respective distributors for people with bigger budget and but I do not ever see such products in store and apparently these customers just buy these gears without auditioning!

In such a case, with basically only one option as SKS traders in Kolkata, I will have to look around for options.

Fortunately my speakers are very efficient. So I am hoping they would go well with most sensible amps. I subscribe to the view that you are mostly hearing your speakers, then source and then amp (provided of course your amp is driving the speakers well) in that order and I have said that many times elsewhere, once also at the beginning of this thread. I fI understood him correctly, I think Cranky also has a similar opinion. However, his tremendous technical knowhow obviously is in a different ballpark.

I may have to take a few educated chances with products from elsewhere. Hopefully I will be able to hear them at least with some other speakers.

With the options here, I will be happy with the Quad 909 the most. I have the feeling that everybody may not have heard this power amp in this forum (sure dinyaar has). I think this is an extremely capable amp with tremendous detail of the midrange (for Indian classical music that is the most important) and very reasonable lows and highs. But the 99 pre may not be the ideal. Our forum member binoymehra has used the 909 with an Axiom passive pre. I wonder whether the Promitheus pre (passive) would work with it. BTW, according to user reports, the Promitheus pre is not a budget product, not even a mid-level, it's a high-end product at a very affordable price.

The Cayin A-88T is the only integrated that is here. So guys, it is good and I can live with it, but can I do better and how?

See arj, this is the problem. I am sorry for the long mail, but it was necessary to explain the finer layers of my thinking with respect to a few ground realities.
 
Hi guys,
Asit by British sound i mean an Arcam. IMO a perfect example of british HIFI.
Cranky is being modest about his knowledge but from his posts it suggests a person with tons of knowledge on the subject. Now he and Asit feel the amp is not as important as the source or the speakers. While i would totally agree on the speakers i question the source being more important than an amp. IMO all three are equally important and i would not discount the importance of quality amplification.
I have a hypothetical question for u guys. Take a budget cdp(marantz 6002 @ 20K) and a budget amp (Nad 325 or a marantz PM 6002). Now if either of these components are put with components much higher in the chain which in your opinion will be ruthlessly exposed ,the budget cdp or the budget amp? I feel a modest cdp with its limitations will perform better than a modest amp partnering better class components.
We tried a 6002 cdp as a stop gap with classe + B&W 803s and it was musical, tried the arcam entry level cdp with Bryston + Thiel again the set up was musical but when my old Rotel RC 1070/RB 1080 pre power was there driving the same 803s mentioned above with a classe cdp the sound was truly poor. Was not a lack of drive just a pathetic presentation. Needless to say the decision to sell the rotels became an urgency!!!!! Maybe a case of a complete mismatch though it should not be so.
In short a poor amp is going to be as much of a let down as a poor source in my opinion. Look at it this way if there is a loss in pick up at the source itself the faithful amp will still amplify and the output from the speakers that u love will be musical but i doubt a bottleneck amp will be able to cope with a brilliant source and a revealing speaker.
There are no absolutes and i may be wrong in what i feel which means Asitji might just have to buy a cracker amp to reveal what his CA cdp feeds.
Rgds
 
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See arj, this is the problem. I am sorry for the long mail, but it was necessary to explain the finer layers of my thinking with respect to a few ground realities.
I think I know how you feel considering i was in a similar position last year. having been in the same position with speakers which not many people had.
had to make a final choice of amps after talking to people who had similar speakers in character and sensitivity as well..it did take a long time to get there.


IMHO Amp-speaker synergy, at least to me is one of the most critical factors after room-speaker synergy..and having a sensitive speaker across the frequency range does make it a good match to most amplifiers so your current list of amplifiers might all do good justice to your speakers
 
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Hi dinyaar,

Well, the most important point in my last post was actually about speakers. I just wanted to make the point that after all you listen to your speakers, they are the ones making the actual sound that enters your ears. From that point of view, I know my speakers and its sound signature. Given the situation in Kolkata, I may not be able to audition too many amps with my speakers, but given that my speakers are highly sensitive, makes it easier to choose an amp.

Now the source being more important than the amp is to be always qualified with the fact that the amp is a good one, being able to do a good job of whatever it is fed with and at the same time being able to drive the speakers well enough.

I have not done many changes with my system in last many many years, until recently when I am experimenting a bit of late. But with the gears at friends' places I have seen that provided the rest of the system is good enough (that is there is no obvious weakness), an upgrade of the source gives the most bang for the buck, that is, it improves the sound significantly for the money spent.

Dinyaar, you have a tremendous experience with tons of audio gears, not just your own, but of your family, friends, your parents' friends etc. I have practically zero experience compared to yours and the most of the systems I am talking about are at best mid-fi. You have to take my evaluation with the appropriate weighting factor.

Of course, I agree with you completely that the amp has to reveal whatever it's fed with from my source. I guess, dinyaar the amp-man wins!:D
 
Hi,
Its not about winning or losing, its just an opinion.
My set ups have always had bigger/better amplifiers even with modest speakers and source. I dont mean a rubbish cdp or speakers but some mid fi . I also generally tend to keep an amplifier/speakers for longer while the cdps play up in a couple of years and are hence upgraded.

Actually the time i signed on to this forum was the time i was thinking of swapping/selling all the gear i owned. Tried too many combinations and took too long and some of the highly rated and well reviewed cdps/amps left me stumped!!!!

Not really related or pertaining to this thread but i am sharing an experiment on amplification we did last night on Arcam/B&W.
Bought an Arcam A38 for my niece(yes the same amp which What HIFI has rated mediocre) as an upgrade to her Rotel integrated with B&W 601 S3. Just as an experiment we added an Arcam Power amp in the mix.
By itself the Arcam was musical and convincing. Not dull as described but slightly laid back. All in all musical. Added a kimber silver streak as the IC with Kimber 4 TC as the speaker cable and the girl was more than happy.
Next used the Arcam as a preamp with the power amp and the incremental benefit, if any was marginal. Nothing really seemed better.
Finally Bi amped using the integrated to drive the HF and the power amp to drive the LF and the difference was huge. All the positives were enhanced and resolution, grip, control was much much better. Only problem i felt was a marginally more audible background. Was using a supra classic 4 on the power amp driving the LF which i swapped to a Kimber 8TC which solved all issues and the set up now seemed truly musical. This was just an experiment and the demo power amplifier was returned.
So guys considering a pre/power of the brand are better served by bi amping with the integrated and the power amp for lesser outlay on electronics but increased cost of cables.
Rgds
 
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@Dinyaar: (Asit, I am sorry to interrupt your conversation...) I am most grateful to you for posting this, as the pairing of Arcam A series with P series power amp is something I was wondering about too. I will probably do it after a year or so but I was not sure what the benefit would be. However your post has alleviated all doubt and has explained very beautifully what to expect and how to go about it. May I ask which power amp it was that you tried? Thanks again. And yes, I too hope to change my speaker cables soon if I can find one cheaply that matches the Chord Cobra I/C...
 
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