An evening with the Thiel CS 1.6 speakers

[jls001]

See this chart which Venkat had shared earlier:

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

Pipe organ's lowest fundamental frequency goes down to 16 Hz. One probably cannot hear it with the ears but can surely feel the thump in the chest. That's organ pedal bass. In comparison, electric bass guitar goes only to 32 Hz and I think standing acoustic bass goes a wee bit lower than that.

 

[Divakar7]

I understand that there is music at sub-bass levels that one can feel if not hear. However, I am not fully convinced that even with harmonics at play, how the Thiel 1.6 could produce bass at a perciptible level at 16HZ.

Stereophile's review of the Thiel 1.6 and their peeformance on bass:

The 1/3-octave warble tones on Stereophile's Test CD 3 were reproduced in full measure down to the 80Hz band. The 63Hz band is always weak in my room; such was the case with the CS1.6 unless I moved my chair back against the wall behind it, but the 50Hz band was moderately high in level. It was only at 40Hz and below that the speaker was obviously rolling off rapidly. The story was the same with the series of half-step-spaced tonebursts that I included on Test CD 3 (footnote 1), the speaker's bass response falling off rapidly below G at 49Hz.

Thiel CS1.6 loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com

When I upgrade next (maybe in five years ) one of the key factor would be that the Thiel 1.6 do not have as much bass as I would like and can currently afford. So I am not nit-picking for the heck of it, I am just aware of the Thiel's 1.6 limitations in the bass department.

 

[jls001]

20 to 32-35 Hz are some of the costliest frequencies to buy in a speaker

The question to ask oneself is whether one really wants to pay the big premium to be able to listen to this narrow band of frequencies from your main speakers, OR spend perhaps less on subwoofer(s).

 

[Divakar7]

20 to 32-35 Hz are some of the costliest frequencies to buy in a speaker

The question to ask oneself is whether one really wants to pay the big premium to be able to listen to this narrow band of frequencies from your main speakers, OR spend perhaps less on subwoofer(s).

Couldn't agree more. I imagine that the Thiel 2.4 will be more capable in the bass dept going down to 32hz. But as you rightly point out, is it worth paying three times more for 48-32hz? I think not. Maybe five years later, I may change my mind Indian classical music and even Jazz that I listen to, doesn't require that cavity-shaking level of bass..

 

[arj]

Actually there is quite a lot of content in the Sub 30Hz region in rock and even Jazz involving instruments like Double bass (this includes Subharmonics).and ideally a fullranger in a largish room is about as Ideal as one can get.
But for the majority of us with Space/$$ constraints a sub(ideally 2) can do very well as long as they are setup well.

any speaker which does do a 3db point in the 40'scan be very well integerated with good subs and at is usually a lot more cost efective than Floorstanders and might get us almost 85%-90% there as a full ranger.

Thiels are really great speakers as long as long as they are given the right ampflication. Jim Thiel the designer is one of the Audio legends, and while he was still alive one of the most regarded folks in the industry.

 

[Divakar7]

Jim Thiel stated in an interview that one of the biggest compromises he makes for his lower cost speakers is to not have as much bass extension:

Jim Thiel: Right, but like Kathy says, if you go out and pull random people off the street and say, "What would you expect in a $1,000 loudspeaker?"--you'll know this probably better than I would--most of these people, unaware of High End audio, would think, "Wow, a $1,000 for a pair of loudspeakers. That's a lot of money. I bet I can get all kinds of bass, I can blow may windows out with a pair of $1,000 loudspeakers." But of course when we or other High End manufacturers design such a loudspeaker, the first thing we think is well, you're not going to get the bottom octave-and-a half of bass. We find it a lot more agreeable to accept that trade-off in lowering the price than using poor quality capacitors and cheap drivers. So Kathy's original point was that even our lowest-priced products use the same cabinet wall material, a cast driver chassis. And the products are internally braced. We use the same internal wire on our lowest priced speakers that we do on our highest priced speakers. We use the same type of capacitors (There's fewer of them.) And to answer your question--"How can we make lower-priced speakers?"--we basically give up the bass extension and loudness capability. I'm also willing to give up a little bit in terms of other characteristics--tonal accuracy or clarity.

HP: But you achieve, in my experience, good octave-to-octave balance, so you don't really notice so much bass missing. How do you do that?

JT: Well, you say it a little differently than I would. What's more important to your ear is that what is there is naturally balanced, that there's nothing there that seems unnatural. Whatever you do provide in sonic output should never sound unnatural, and, if you can do that, then the speaker can sound quite good. There's just a lack of something that otherwise would be there.

THIEL: Jim Thiel Interviews

 

[jls001]

Actually there is quite a lot of content in the Sub 30Hz region in rock and even Jazz involving instruments like Double bass (this includes Subharmonics).and ideally a fullranger in a largish room is about as Ideal as one can get.
But for the majority of us with Space/$$ constraints a sub(ideally 2) can do very well as long as they are setup well.

Agree fully on both counts.

It is only when one hears a good full range setup (whether main speakers alone capable of covering the full range, or subwoofer reinforced) that one realises how much one is missing when listening to non full-range setups. The standing bass in small ensemble jazz suddenly gains weight and the timbre comes through (all bass instruments have their own unique colours - even synth bass), the grating cello sends gentle shivers down the spine and not just present a smoothened out version of the instrument, contrabassoons show how much energy they carry, and male soprano voices sing from the chest and not from the throat. Western classical, rock and jazz becomes that much more engaging.

My personal quest to get a pair of good subs remains unfulfilled.

 

[arj]

Agree fully on both counts.

It is only when one hears a good full range setup (whether main speakers alone capable of covering the full range, or subwoofer reinforced) that one realises how much one is missing when listening to non full-range setups. The standing bass in small ensemble jazz suddenly gains weight and the timbre comes through (all bass instruments have their own unique colours - even synth bass), the grating cello sends gentle shivers down the spine and not just present a smoothened out version of the instrument, contrabassoons show how much energy they carry, and male soprano voices sing from the chest and not from the throat. Western classical, rock and jazz becomes that much more engaging.

My personal quest to get a pair of good subs remains unfulfilled.

if you have a separate Pre/power, the vandersteen subs are the best option in stereo.problem with them is the shipping cost.

I use Dual REL Strata's..am very happy with htm in terms of itnegeration and low end articulation for that price.

 

[svenkateshsmart]

Nice review and lovely listening session from the sound of it. Can't wait to connect my Thiel 1.6 to the MF A1008. At 414 watts per channel in 4 ohms I believe I have adequate power to drive these babies! I was already bowled over during the audition session at AP and I think after they are broken in, the Thiel will only get better.

BTW someone said earlier they heard bass to 16hz, I am not sure that is possible. The Thiel 1.6 rolls off at 48hz, so anything below isn't reproduced. But I am open to be educated..

Thanks Divakar, I stand corrected and have rephrased it. However, it was worth mentioning it as I enjoyed reading the whole read

I played (acoustic) guitar and had been for over 2 years, so have a vague idea about frequencies.

However, the track has been widely used to test subwoofers to go way below 14hz.

Cheers!

 

[BLASTO]

When I upgrade next (maybe in five years ) one of the key factor would be that the Thiel 1.6 do not have as much bass as I would like and can currently afford. So I am not nit-picking for the heck of it, I am just aware of the Thiel's 1.6 limitations in the bass department.

The rule of thumb is, No bass is better than muddy bass.

The problem is, when we say "No bass", people reading think "No Bass" in the literal manner.

The thiel 1.6 has hell a lot of bass by itself compared to floorstands in the 80k range (MA silvers anyone?)

Just that it discards anything below 40Hz and sounds low for freqs from 40-50Hz. Not the end of the world for music.

You might miss a lot of sound if it were movies though.

I understand that there is music at sub-bass levels that one can feel if not hear. However, I am not fully convinced that even with harmonics at play, how the Thiel 1.6 could produce bass at a perciptible level at 16HZ.

Stereophile's review of the Thiel 1.6 and their peeformance on bass:



Thiel CS1.6 loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com

16Hz?? hyeah:
Move to a thiel 3.7 or an Avalon.

Couple it with a monster amp whose name you would not be familiar with at the moment.

Most of all, Buy a new house to accomodate them..

Not sure if the discussion is referring to integrated amps. or power amps, but IMO Odyssey power amps. will mate superbly with the Thiels. Tube like warmth and stability into low impedence loads are the hallmarks of these amps. Relatively affordable as well.
Cheers,
Sid

Any idea where they are available for demo in hyd/india?

 

[Divakar7]

Svenkatesh, I learnt a lot through the exchanges above and also great points made over PM. Since I have set-up the Thiels this evening, going forward I will hopefully be listening more to music than posting!

 

[srinisundar]

The thiel 1.6 has hell a lot of bass by itself compared to floorstands in the 80k range (MA silvers anyone?)

.

Never quote in the range of 80K>>>> Lucky to get the same for 80K+ and never went down below 1.6L in India earlier.

Regards

 

[sidvee]

Any idea where they are available for demo in hyd/india?

Sridhar of ARN (I believe his handle on HFV is Odyssey) is the dealer and they have a great demo. facility in Bangalore.
Also before I upgraded to my current symphonic line I used to have a Odyssey stratos extreme and it was a fabulous amp.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[malvai]

16Hz?? hyeah:
Move to a thiel 3.7 or an Avalon.

Couple it with a monster amp whose name you would not be familiar with at the moment.

Most of all, Buy a new house to accomodate them..

actually neither of the above do that either! The B&W MATRIX 801 S2 and S3's do! hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:

 

[tirthankar]

^^ And if you include a bass alignment filter, things get even sweeter ...