Are CD Player still relevant?

[thx911]

The trouble is that because of CD players disappearing, dedicated transports are hard to come by and very very expensive. Hence most entry level to mid end players use a DVD transport or CD rom drive which might end up compromising sonics.

It might or might not end up compromising sonics, have no idea, may be this is yet another myth, or may be its a proven fact, really don't know, any objective, scientific data is appreciated, for my own awareness.

On the other hand it can be argued that with the arrival of DVD-ROMs, a technically better if not superior component when compared to the 80's CD transport with no adverse impact on sonics when implemented in a CDP might be a reason for disappearance of the dedicated transport, this apart from the dwindling CD sales and numerous other factors?

As for price, one has to use their head to decide what floats their boat. 4000$ might be expensive for you or me. However it might be chump change for someone else. It all depends on what one is comfortable spending.

Agree, its when one uses his/her head that you question the pricing & its rationality, because pricing is pricing, its simple maths. The pricing needs to reflect the sum total of cost + profits, its here when things start looking squishy that we enter into the realm of snake oil industry. was not referring to affordability, just pricing, rational pricing for evaluating whatever any product actually stands for.

Btw, folks, another one from memory, this Ayre CD player running a DVS DVD-ROM drive might pique your interest, read an interview by Ayre CEO a couple of years ago on how they were "forced" to use dvd-roms when TEAC stopped manufacturing CD transports, what ever be the reason, the fact that CD transport manufacturing is dying or already dead is a sad thing. But hey, we got all these esoteric brands using easily available DVD-ROM drives, this should lift our spirits hyeah:

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Ayre Acoustics CX-7e CD Player (6/2007)

 

[square_wave]

Another discussion that will never go anywhere. Classic thread

 

[jls001]

Another discussion that will never go anywhere. Classic thread

Same old, same old

 

[reignofchaos]

It might or might not end up compromising sonics, have no idea, may be this is yet another myth, or may be its a proven fact, really don't know, any objective, scientific data is appreciated, for my own awareness.

DVD Player Jitter Measurements

Here's the primary issue while using DVD players as a cd transport. Quoting directly from there.

a big difference between DVD players and CD/SACD only players is that the latter operate just on single clock frequency, while the former needs to run three of them - 27MHz videoclock together with 44.1k/48k audioclocks.. usually the player's main chip runs on 27MHz crystal oscillator but also generates the audioclocks needed.. and because they cannot be easily divided down from 27MHz, techniques like PLL or DLL have to be used.. this is done inside that large scale integrated circuit with thousands of transistors switching all around on the same substrate.. following are measurements taken on one of the popular DVD chipsets by Zoran..
...
these are the properities of the player's chipset itself - no clock upgrade kits can help here even though you will find modders installing them all around and poor people paying hundreds of dollars for them!
it is important to say though, that regardless of the jitter, there are no data related problems whatsoever - the whole system is still bit perfect, but the data really are not the whole story..
there is a way though how to deal with all these nastiness, a way to get rid of this buggy clock generation scheme and make absolutely brilliant transport out of even the cheapiest piece of universal player..

 

[Ambio]

When Sony, the inventor of CD, stopped making CD players than we know the CD will soon disappear. The people with money and time and conscious of status symbol would be the last one still arguing about which player sounds the best.

None of the SOTA players claim theirs is the best sounding players.

Tad...

These two models embody the philosophy and technical standards
behind TADs dedication to conveying all the passion contained within
music.

Accuphase

Accuphase to assure the best possible performance. Its ultra-massive design combines superior rigidity with outstanding accuracy. Compared to a CD drive, an SA-CD drive has a higher revolution rate, and pickup positioning accuracy as well as suppression of vibrations must be of a higher order, to allow full access to the enormous amount of information stored on the disc.

Meitner.

"Will it get the most from my Red Book discs?" Yes, absolutely. The MA-2's advanced new slot-loading transport utilizes technology we developed for the state-of-the-art EMM Labs XDS1 player to isolate the transport electrically and mechanically from the converter. Your Red Book discs are read quickly, quietly and then played back flawlessly.

Emm Labs

countless plaudits from the consumers, professionals and critics whove listened to, and ultimately purchased, our products.

None of them claim their players capable bring out the best ever sound. They only state the numbers and what it could do. The SQ is left to others. They have stereophiles and audiophiles to do that.

 

[deba]

It is always better to backup CDs in MP3 or WAV or FLAC format because most CD pressing these days are so inferior that they become non-playable after few year........

 

[ranjeetrain]

Too much theory going on here. Computers are noisy. Jitter is too high. CR-ROM/DVD-ROM based transports are inferior. But the most important questions are forgotten. The SQ and the VFM.

What is the best way to reproduce digital music given a certain amount of money? Now, this is the question I am interested in answering/getting answered.

We can talk all we want about the holy grail of sound reproduction. But the fact is, no one knows what the absolute best is. No one has defined it, no one knows what it is, no one is likely to agree with it if someone stands up and says this is the absolute best. How then, on the ground of reality, can one make a conscious informed decision about what playback method should he choose?

My method is simple. I no longer buy by reviews/ratings/specification. I buy by ears.

May be something costing INR 50k sounds very good, and something costing INR 500k sounds excellent. Now lets quantify these good and excellent. Lets says the good is at 80% and the excellent at 95%. Now someone comes along with a INR 5000k component that sounds amazing. Lets say that's 98-99%. Then someone comes along with a INR 50,000k component that sounds mind-boggling. Lets say that's 98.5-99%. Now 100% is not attainable. The fight will always remain inside this 95-99% bracket. Within this 4% boundary (or 9% boundary depending on the base reference point) there are too many things that affect the final outcome of the sound. Now this is where things get interesting! An audiophile will judge by ear, see what combination sounds best in his space and settle for it. An audiofool will read all the theory, extrapolate the possible increment in the fidelity and splurge on what produces the highest possible outcome on paper.

To me the difference is immediate. On one hand we have people who have put together a system at a realistic cost and sounds excellent. On the other hand we have people who have read a lot of papers and know about potential benefits of spending on equipment that address problems that may not exist in their actual listening session.

Which one will you be? One who sets a budget and auditions CDPs and computers in that budget? Or one who will read theories and decide one is better than the others? You choose!

 

[dheerajin]

Completely Agree..ROI is the first priority for me

 

[Ambio]

....Lets says the good is at 80% and the excellent at 95%. Now someone comes along with a INR 5000k component that sounds amazing. Lets say that's 98-99%. Then someone comes along with a INR 50,000k component that sounds mind-boggling. Lets say that's 98.5-99%. Now 100% is not attainable. The fight will always remain inside this 95-99% bracket.

I believe there are close to 1000 different high end brands. Now, how can we tell without a proper reference and understanding which is at 80% or at the excellent 99%? We are not even sure of our hearing threshold.

.... An audiophile will judge by ear, see what combination sounds best in his space and settle for it. An audiofool will read all the theory, extrapolate the possible increment in the fidelity and splurge on what produces the highest possible outcome on paper.

It is actually the other way round. Audiofools are those who believe they could tell the difference by listening. A simple extra gain in the output can make any system sounds difference. Audiofools refuse to acknowledge this truth, especially after spending x amount of money on their new toy.

....To me the difference is immediate.

It could be extra loudness, extra gain or clipping. Or the blue pill effect of placebo.

....On the other hand we have people who have read a lot of papers and know about potential benefits of spending on equipment that address problems that may not exist in their actual listening session.

Knowledge is power. As a consumer, we should know what we are paying for. Are paying for substance or fancy faceplate?

....Which one will you be? One who sets a budget and auditions CDPs and computers in that budget? Or one who will read theories and decide one is better than the others? You choose!

Unfortunately, our ears are fundamentally so flawed that it cant tell 70dB and 73dB difference. It would not be a "sound" judgment to use ears to judge sound even though we still rely on them to listen music.

 

[thx911]

Unable to perceive in a random double blind test does not mean the problem does not exist.

The question is not whether the problem exists or not, its about the sensitivity of its impact on the overall desired outcome, in this case, SQ. If there is NO significant, statistically speaking, variability in perception by human hearing in a randomized double blinded test, it simply means that for all practical purposes, the two samples/sources are equal in their intended impact/outcome. Are they equal in absolute terms? NO!, is the difference worth taking into consideration? NO!, unless of-course you want to tighten the tolerance of your double blinded test design itself, which is a moot point in my humble opinion.

There was a paper recently that pretty much no one could distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 in an ABX test. Does that mean no one should buy high res audio?

On a lighter note without any offence to anyone, if one uses his power of reasoning and objectivity, the answer is a BIG NO! if one uses ears, ear drums, eustachian canal & other parts of human body you can very well buy anything that sells in the name of High res or audiophile goods & services

 

[thx911]

My method is simple. I no longer buy by reviews/ratings/specification. I buy by ears.

Ranjeet, often i hear myself in your post & your thought process, which are often well constructed arguments with sound logic, so have great regards for most of your views, barring "buying by your ears".

Ambio has already touched on how unreliable our ears can be from a sound/vibration perception point of view, let me elaborate my thoughts on the psychology of our mind(thinking, which is a product of conscious judgement and sub-conscious & often passive opinions/judgement handed down to us from others, adverts, forums, reviews, family, friends etc).

We got to remember that the human sense organs are mere "appendages"of our brain, its technically wrong to say, that ones ears or eyes does the judgement, its actually your brain that does all the judgement and decision making, its not your ears that hear and not your eye that see, but your mind/brain.

Now it is physiologically & psychological IMPOSSIBLE to isolate your sense organs selectively, and shut down other stimuli in your brain even for the most simplest action or decision that your brain undertakes, let alone a complex process like discerning the difference between two similar sound waves/vibrations. Its very taxing on the brain to do this activity, but our human brain is smart, just like us, it likes to automate any given task, it tries to tap into our memory looking to make the whole process of "judgement"easy upon itself, hence all the pre-conceived notions, audiophile myths, biases, judgement, visual stimuli, smell, taste, environment etc.... kicks in. So one is simply not listening and judging a song or music, a song/music/visual is judged by numerous other factors often subtle and internal to more obvious external factors outside our control.

So when people keep peddling this myth that one can discern Sound Quality by your ears/eyes it can't be far from the truth. And in my humble opinion, is the most unreliable way to compare/judge anything, thus the adage "don't judge anything by looks"

So how are we supposed to make a decision/judgement? the only way i can think of is to suspend your other senses and look for objective data, those that are measured by machines with acceptable tolerances & robust measurement system analysis, which might include a randomized double blinded tests.

Sorry for all the gyaan, just wanted to point and highlight the most important psycho-acoustic factors that often gets neglected and least discussed in our forum.

 

[sarith]

I liked the sound of my Sony DVD player and PC digitally connected to my DAC. The sound is crisp with sweet treble and clean, punchy bass. sound is non-fatiguing. A Sony cd player brought almost 15 years ago from Saudi which was made in Malaysia which had few JRC 4580 or 4560 op-amps, sounded pretty cool.

IIRC, it was bought for 14-15K. The memory of that Sony's sound still linger in my mind. Actually I have a feeling that I kinda miss the 'musicality' that Sony player had. I remember keeping the 'music level' switch to max. The CD tray was bulky and heavy. PSU was good old trafo with bridge diode. Even though well cared for, it only lasted few years.

I think I will ask my friend who's in UK to bring me a vintage Marantz or Philips CD player instead of DSD DAC.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Ranjeet, often i hear myself in your post & your thought process, which are often well constructed arguments with sound logic, so have great regards for most of your views, barring "buying by your ears".

Hi, thanks for the kind words.

I have high regards for measurements and scientific research and conclusions. At the same time I have experienced that what is said to have better measurement, need not necessarily sound better. When buying for myself I just trust my ears which I find sensitive enough to be decently accurate. My logic is simple - if my ear can't hear the difference, spending money on it is a waste.

Please note all the Is, Mes and Mys in my post. This is my take. I wouldn't argue anyone to follow my philosophy. Those who agree will. Others will find other ways. There is enough room on this planet for diversity.

As for your reference to Ambio's post, I agree with parts of his post and disagree with others. But since I have minimized my time spent on HiFi forums these days, I don't get into sentence for sentence, word for word, comma for comma discussions. I only comment when I think I have something useful to add. If I have enough time for detailed discussions I'll return and add my thoughts later.

 

[Ambio]

This forum is a place for all to share their exprience. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. However, there are many taking the words written by a few to be the gospel truth. For some, they will not settle for anything less than X dollars player until they find their ultimate sound.

Good sound need not cost thousands of dollars. A $1000 player may sound different from a $10000 player but if you know the reason behind the difference then you could make them to sound like the $10000 player. Bob Carver did that with his amplifier.

What ever difference you may or may not hear with CDP and PC not related to SQ at all. In a way, the teenagers and headphone audiophiles hear much more accurate sound then most us.

Ambio.

p.s. I hope the OP got the answers he was looking for.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Unable to perceive in a random double blind test does not mean the problem does not exist. There was a paper recently that pretty much no one could distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 in an ABX test. Does that mean no one should buy high res audio?

Yes!

:clapping:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

So how are we supposed to make a decision/judgement? the only way i can think of is to suspend your other senses and look for objective data, those that are measured by machines with acceptable tolerances & robust measurement system analysis, which might include a randomized double blinded tests.

thx911, I am completely with what you say about our perceptions and how they work. My ever-continuing moan is that audiophiles do not pay enough attention to how our senses work, but are content to stop at how they think they work. Well, that was me too until recent years.

So when people keep peddling this myth that one can discern Sound Quality by your ears/eyes it can't be far from the truth. And in my humble opinion, is the most unreliable way to compare/judge anything, thus the adage "don't judge anything by looks"

Yes, it is a myth, and yes, maybe it is the most unreliable way to judge and compare, but, for the most part, ears and eyes are the equipment we have available to us when we go shopping. So that's what we do: we look and listen, and pride of ownership takes many forms.

 

[jls001]

Yes, it is a myth....

But the fact that it is the brain that does the discerning is an established scientific fact. I'm not clear why it has been introduced here. As far as I remember no one had contended that it is the ears alone that do the hearing.

 

[Naturelover]

Great timing!
Something's coming to set the cat among the pigeons!

Yes!

:clapping:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Cheers. Thrown my oar in there

 

[thx911]

DIGITAL stuff is still not in reach with many of us to understand, since for a simple 0 and 1 of digital there are several views and i will not be surprised if someone says that digital domain should entertain voodoo things.

Dheeraj, don't you think this is a reason enough to continue discussions and improve our understanding and awareness? why the urgency to close?