Basics: Anyone?!

...subs EXAGGERATE bass. I like my music balanced. Maybe for movies, it helps.:)

Now that, totally depends on the user:rolleyes: imo. He can use or abuse the sub depending on how good his skills are in integrating the sub in to his system.

A good sub is supposed to be invisible and should support the main speakers by filling up the gaps that they can??t do it on their own for the effective and wholesome music reproduction. A sub that makes it audible is either a very bad sub or a good sub wasted by bad/inexperienced set-up. I believe this applies for the movies as well in a well made HT.

Hope this is not turning out to be some sort of a debate, if so then as usual I'll be excusing myself and silently walking away;)
 
Although i agree with having full range towers would be ideal for music.
Don't you a think a quality sub woofer well calibrated with decent bookshelf speakers can give you near identical performance?

Sorry, I haven;t been here so frequently these days. The variables in that approach are:
  1. quality sub woofer - Hard to get at a budget
  2. well calibrated - Very hard to do. Most people have their sub set at 8-12 dB above the rest of the spectrum and feel a great sense of "bass" presence there. I don't think that's makes for a great balanced sound
  3. decent bookshelf - Cost as much as floorstanders. Need good stands. Are difficult to position well and keep steady. Not very child friendly. Total cost of ownership increases and headaches are more.

Floorstanders don't do the job when someone needs certain frequencies to be 12 dBs higher than the rest of the spectrum.

A good (or even a decent) floorstander would invariably beat a bookshelf on the imaging and dynamics front. The integration, in case of a floorstander (Vs Bookshelf + Sub) is a LOT better. No tweaking around, the sub on a daily basis. Unless the sub has a microprocessor based controller built in, to get a sound as well integrated as an equivalent floorstander would produce, it would take a constant tweaking of the sub. Not to mention the problem of "hiding" the sub.

Other problems are cut off frequency and phase. Personally, if I were to add a sub then I would imagine adding two subs (to maintain the stereo image, which I'll never get right anyway because of minor phase errors). They do say low-frequency sound is not so directional. But try a setup with one sub and then with two subs and then see the difference.

Cut off frequency is another area of problem. It takes a lot of time to find and settle onto a cut off frequency. You are never satisfied and you never get it right. More over you need an amp which has a sub out, and again, has a nice one.

A good, well designed, floorstander would constantly beat a equally costly Bookshelf + Stands + Sub (add to that the cost of additional cabling). I personally feel it is a lot more wiser to invest in a quality floorstander than live with Bookshelf + sub.
 
[*]decent bookshelf - Cost as much as floorstanders. Need good stands. Are difficult to position well and keep steady. Not very child friendly. Total cost of ownership increases and headaches are more.
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Floorstanders don't do the job when someone needs certain frequencies to be 12 dBs higher than the rest of the spectrum.

A good (or even a decent) floorstander would invariably beat a bookshelf on the imaging and dynamics front. The integration, in case of a floorstander (Vs Bookshelf + Sub) is a LOT better. No tweaking around, the sub on a daily basis. Unless the sub has a microprocessor based controller built in, to get a sound as well integrated as an equivalent floorstander would produce, it would take a constant tweaking of the sub. Not to mention the problem of "hiding" the sub.

\A good, well designed, floorstander would constantly beat a equally costly Bookshelf + Stands + Sub (add to that the cost of additional cabling). I personally feel it is a lot more wiser to invest in a quality floorstander than live with Bookshelf + sub.

Err if you are buying a bookshelf, you are obviously not looking for the deepest bass frequencies. Thats never the domain of bookshelves. Adding a sub is always a compromise. If you must have the deepest frequencies, get a floorstander in the first place.

However I disagree when you say a good bookshelf costs almost as much as a floorstander. A bookshelf in the same range as a floorstander will typically cost half or less. Yes stands are an added expense, but you can get stands for not too much... say around 15-20 grand.

When you compare a bookshelf of a certain price range with a floorstander of a similar price range, the bookshelf will almost always be a better bet in terms of tonality, dynamics and imaging since it'll be competing with a floorstander of a lower category at its price. (eg: A Dynaudio Contour s1.4 can be had for a little less than a Focus 220 and the former will absolutely demolish the latter in accuracy. Its the same with most other brands/ranges too)

More is not always better. Sometimes a floorstander is hard to setup due to room characteristics. I'd rather stay with a little less bass than bass bloom. A bookshelf will integrate much easier and will typically be not as sensitive to placement as a floorstander. One big downer of a bookshelf typically is the sensitivity. Most great sounding bookshelves have very low sensitivities of around 84-86dB and need an amp with tonnes of muscle power. (say arnd 100 conservatively rated watt or higher with lots of current capability and drive)

Disclaimer: I own a floorstanding setup but after learning about the problems of a floorstander in a typical untreated indian home, I'd rather get a bookshelf as my next speaker.
 
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Adding a sub is always a compromise.

That was exactly my point. Thanks.

However I disagree when you say a good bookshelf costs almost as much as a floorstander.

Read back and think TOC.

but you can get stands for not too much... say around 15-20 grand.

Yes the cheap ones.

When you compare a bookshelf of a certain price range with a floorstander of a similar price range,

Unequal comparison.

the bookshelf will almost always be a better bet in terms of tonality, dynamics and imaging

A bookshelf will not even reach to the level of dynamics a relatively priced FS will offer.
 
Floor standers + 'ideally' calibrated sub woofer = audio nirvana ?

Thinking about it, I think someone who'd buy floorstanders would probably wouldnt buy a sub. A floorstander "eliminates" the need of a sub in a "2 channel" set up.

A pair of SM and a sub is the way to go in systems where the urge is to gradually evolve to a full HT.
 
100% correct, I've all the satellites calibrated for 75db and sub spiced up by another 10db. Music tracks with decent LFE doesn't give that natural colour to sound, in that instance. But 5.1 music concerts are perfect with that setup, you know the drill mate! without chest thump bass what's the meaning of a public concert ;)

well calibrated - Very hard to do. Most people have their sub set at 8-12 dB above the rest of the spectrum and feel a great sense of "bass" presence there. I don't think that's makes for a great balanced sound


That's a perfect remark!
unleash_me said:
A good sub is supposed to be invisible and should support the main speakers by filling up the gaps

how about THIS :D

A floorstander "eliminates" the need of a sub in a "2 channel" set up.

A pair of SM and a sub is the way to go in systems where the urge is to gradually evolve to a full HT.
 
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That was exactly my point. Thanks.

Yes the cheap ones.

Unequal comparison.

A bookshelf will not even reach to the level of dynamics a relatively priced FS will offer.

Well 20 grand will get you stands that can support just about any bookshelf. May not look the best but will do the job very effectively.

I still don't get it why you say comparing a floorstander and a bookshelf at the same price is an unequal comparison. When someone is spending his/her money, they have a set budget and one must get the best possible value in that price and at realistic price levels, bookshelves offer much better bang for the buck

You are absolutely incorrect about dynamics... Yes the bookshelf won't give the dynamic range of a floorstander as it will basically cut off most of the content in the bottom octave (20-40Hz), however in terms of speed and transients, a bookshelf is almost always better as the moving mass is less than a floorstander. The damping factor of the amp remaining the same, the time taken for a single woofer to come to rest will always be faster than two or three drivers. Infact for dynamics, the best speakers are the single driver systems as they can respond fastest to transients. Also a smaller driver (typical of bookshelves) will almost always allow better transients than a large heavy bass driver.
 
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