I think the extra cost is on account of the additional cost of the passive radiator and the related additional work on the cabinet rather than better components.
Best sealed subwoofer for the money
- Thread starter Beast_of_burden
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I think the extra cost is on account of the additional cost of the passive radiator and the related additional work on the cabinet rather than better components.
GeorgeO
Well-Known Member
And better performance as well, I think!
Exactly the question I meant to ask !! How did REL design a Ported or PR sub to be better than a sealed sub for music?
--G0bble
Hey
Just saw this and realized I missed a few pages. Sorry about that. I will reply to this post in the new thread I will open for the amp review and comment on the choice of tubes I have shortlisted. Thanks for being patient. The default is EH btw but I am already convinced they won't be the best - before a listen
. I got the REL T5 today. I made a mistake in my earlier post and mentioned I ordered T3 ( http://www.hifivision.com/what-should-i-buy/18882-best-sealed-subwoofer-money-5.html#post266477) when I actually meant T5. anyways its still in the box and right now I need to download some CD iso image I can use to play 25hz to 90hz repeatedly while I move my sub around the room to judge the best location for it.
Can somebody post a link to a free non-pirated download to a redbook format image of test tones or something (PM me the non-complaint ones
hyeah ?Thank you guys for being so generous! :licklips:
Edit: I need a track that goes from 25hz to 90hz within a few minutes to make quick decisions when shuffling my sub around.
--G0bble
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Is there a rule that says that sealed are better than ported? I dont think so
The only disadvantage of ported that people quote is the higher group delay. The group delay is not due to the ported sub, it is there due to the added high pass filter, without which the ported sub could go bust at lower frequencies. But now a days, quite a few sealed subs also have a hpf, nullifying the advantage. Also, the group delay is higher at lower frequencies, below 30-35hz, which is usually not used much for music, and many people anyway cant hear those. You can also design a sub so that the hpf needs are pushed to below 20hz, eliminating the need for an hpf all together, but it will be a big box.
sud98
Well-Known Member
Sorry for a noob question.
The REL website says T5 is a closed box with a downfiring woofer and the T3 as a closed box with an active driver and a passive radiator.
So how does the T5 become a sealed while the T3 become a ported one?
The REL website says T5 is a closed box with a downfiring woofer and the T3 as a closed box with an active driver and a passive radiator.
So how does the T5 become a sealed while the T3 become a ported one?
grubyhalo
New Member
Downloaded!! Thanks guys for your tips. Due to some pressing personal priorities, I will be unboxing the sub again only late Saturday or Sunday.
Will open a new thread for the review.
So REL considers a PR sub as a closed type not ported type?
--G0bble
Will open a new thread for the review.
So REL considers a PR sub as a closed type not ported type?
--G0bble
OK. I finally unboxed REL T5 last saturday evening. Switched to the NAD c325BEE as I did not want to solder the new sub wires into the MyRef Gainclone pcb via a clip. Tried shuffling it around, a foot or more outside my right speaker and about 3 to 4ft from the perpendicular wall, no luck. Tried playing with the crossover, while it sounded muddy at high setting, did not deliver the effect I was looking for at very low setting (recommended by REL) - to bump up everything below 200hz that dips on my Fullrangers.
Then the next day, Venu and Capt. Rajesh dropped by. A few minutes into a song Venu said the timing is not right. Capt Rajesh concurred after another few songs. Funnily I zeroed in on the timing issues within minutes on listening to a 3 way speaker with side firing woofers many years back, but I failed to detect it on my setup. Yes I knew it was far from perfect the way it sounded but I did not identify bad timing as such. Guess initially I was just getting used to the better lower extension that had been missing a whole year since I got the fullrangers ...
At this stage I was almost like a pet owner who was unhappy that his dog did not growl at him!! The sub wasn't growling at me, and wasn't providing effects that made my hair stand on its end. But in any case that's not what I was looking for majorly when I zeroed in on REL and not any other brand. I really need it to play not there, while adding the missing lower registers. As I detailed in an earlier post I was looking for Integration with everything else taking back seat. Not earth shaking bass.
This entire week I am working from home, and so today afternoon I decided to switch to the Gainclone again as I remembered it had poorer frequency balance at the bottom end as compared to the NAD. So I thought this would take care of the muddiness due to overlapping frequencies that NAD had in abundance while still allowing me to set a highish crossover point.
In the process I moved the sub to where Capt. Rajesh had suggested I try - closer to the left speaker and almost dead center in the room (18ft x 13.5ft + 10 ft passage along one length) and in between the speakers, not outside. After some soldering of the speaker wires ( I have just loosely wound the sub cables around the clips for now) and re-tuning of the Xover things sounded better but not quite. But I knew I was close ... picked up the scent!!hyeah:
Now my benchmarks were not western tracks recorded with expensive amplification technology and abnormal frequency extension. All these years I have only wanted the bassy head of the Mridangam (double headed drum) to sound right, on acoustical recordings, never cared that much for amplified equipment. My Wharfedale 9.2s always sounded better here than the Fostex FR speakers I currently use. Fiddled with setting the Xover and arrived at around 75hz mid point. That did the trick of adding warmth with the gentle 24db/octave slope.
And then .... <Drum Rolls> It was when I moved the REL one foot inside, almost exactly in line with the front baffles of the left speaker that I hit paydirt!! :yahoo: :clapping:
I played a 3CD concert by Sanjay Subramanium and boy it was a live kutcheri at my place. I swear it recreated the exact sound of a typical Gaana Sabha or traditional concert hall (with its bad acoustics and all). I moved into the next room where room resonances did not influence my ears that much and confirmed there were no bassy notes floating around, hovering like pesky orphans begging at a signal stop. Then I understood what Venu and Captain spotted in a jiffy. Now everything is locked in tight without a hint of overlap or timing mismatch. Not as crunchy crisp as the Wharfies reproduce drum going by memory (I last heard them a year back) but still slapping tight! hyeah: Just the way one would enjoy spanking a high heeled woman in a corset!! :licklips:
More elaborate descriptions should be put in a separate review as there are none on the Internet AFAIK. Maybe 4 weeks later after more extensive listening.
--G0bble
Then the next day, Venu and Capt. Rajesh dropped by. A few minutes into a song Venu said the timing is not right. Capt Rajesh concurred after another few songs. Funnily I zeroed in on the timing issues within minutes on listening to a 3 way speaker with side firing woofers many years back, but I failed to detect it on my setup. Yes I knew it was far from perfect the way it sounded but I did not identify bad timing as such. Guess initially I was just getting used to the better lower extension that had been missing a whole year since I got the fullrangers ...
At this stage I was almost like a pet owner who was unhappy that his dog did not growl at him!!
The sub wasn't growling at me, and wasn't providing effects that made my hair stand on its end. But in any case that's not what I was looking for majorly when I zeroed in on REL and not any other brand. I really need it to play not there, while adding the missing lower registers. As I detailed in an earlier post I was looking for Integration with everything else taking back seat. Not earth shaking bass.This entire week I am working from home, and so today afternoon I decided to switch to the Gainclone again as I remembered it had poorer frequency balance at the bottom end as compared to the NAD. So I thought this would take care of the muddiness due to overlapping frequencies that NAD had in abundance while still allowing me to set a highish crossover point.
In the process I moved the sub to where Capt. Rajesh had suggested I try - closer to the left speaker and almost dead center in the room (18ft x 13.5ft + 10 ft passage along one length) and in between the speakers, not outside. After some soldering of the speaker wires ( I have just loosely wound the sub cables around the clips for now) and re-tuning of the Xover things sounded better but not quite. But I knew I was close ... picked up the scent!!
hyeah:Now my benchmarks were not western tracks recorded with expensive amplification technology and abnormal frequency extension. All these years I have only wanted the bassy head of the Mridangam (double headed drum) to sound right, on acoustical recordings, never cared that much for amplified equipment. My Wharfedale 9.2s always sounded better here than the Fostex FR speakers I currently use. Fiddled with setting the Xover and arrived at around 75hz mid point. That did the trick of adding warmth with the gentle 24db/octave slope.
And then .... <Drum Rolls> It was when I moved the REL one foot inside, almost exactly in line with the front baffles of the left speaker that I hit paydirt!! :yahoo: :clapping:
I played a 3CD concert by Sanjay Subramanium and boy it was a live kutcheri at my place. I swear it recreated the exact sound of a typical Gaana Sabha or traditional concert hall (with its bad acoustics and all
). I moved into the next room where room resonances did not influence my ears that much and confirmed there were no bassy notes floating around, hovering like pesky orphans begging at a signal stop. Then I understood what Venu and Captain spotted in a jiffy. Now everything is locked in tight without a hint of overlap or timing mismatch. Not as crunchy crisp as the Wharfies reproduce drum going by memory (I last heard them a year back) but still slapping tight! hyeah: Just the way one would enjoy spanking a high heeled woman in a corset!! :licklips: More elaborate descriptions should be put in a separate review as there are none on the Internet AFAIK. Maybe 4 weeks later after more extensive listening.
--G0bble
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spirovious
Well-Known Member
Did you like the Sub?
Still too early to say... its still the honeymoon period.
Let me listen for a month and get other peoples audition feedback. So far today I think it might well suit what I am looking for.
--G0bble
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Still too early to say... its still the honeymoon period.
--G0bble
Congrats,so sweet memories begin.:lol:
I'm happy to hear that Rahul. Ur positioning of the sub to the right of ur right spkr left hardly 3 odd feet before the bass notes hit the room corner & the timing issues could well be those reflections duly amplified by the corner. Thats why I suggested u to move it to right me the left speaker where those bass notes have to travel much longer to encounter the room corner & lose energy in the process & would be less perceivable. Happy that my one day trip to Blr with Sunday suffixed has been fruitful u & me after all. not that u couldn't do it but I'm happy to be a part.
not that u couldn't do it but I'm happy to be a part.I'm happy to hear that Rahul. Ur positioning of the sub to the right of ur right spkr left hardly 3 odd feet before the bass notes hit the room corner & the timing issues could well be those reflections duly amplified by the corner. Thats why I suggested u to move it to right me the left speaker where those bass notes have to travel much longer to encounter the room corner & lose energy in the process & would be less perceivable. Happy that my one day trip to Blr with Sunday suffixed has been fruitful u & me after all.
Thanks to you and Venu Captain! :cheers:
You know what? A link I posted earlier in another thread titled "Science of Subwoofing" advised never placing a sub in the corner. But REL recommends placing it in the corner for a 9db mechanical boost - guess because their 8" subs cannot compete with other heavy weights to generate LF?
Eventually this location might not bring me that claimed 27hz output but I am not looking for that anyways.
Lastly I have yet to do extensive listening tests across music genres. This is only an initial assessment. Time will tell.
--G0bble
GeorgeO
Well-Known Member
The conventional wisdom is that the corner is the best place for the sub.
Hi George
This article recommends otherwise The Science of Subwoofing | Stereophile.com
And it appears to be working for me.
--G0bble
anm
Well-Known Member
for movies or for music?
It depends very much on the subwoofer.
Rel (the old designs..not sure of new) are not really subwoofers but Sub Bass units and they work by boosting and adding on to the lower end of the speakers. the rels do not have a Low pass crossover..the sealed box design acts as a natural 24db d Crossover . Hence when you set a level you need to set it much lower than the 6dB point of the speaker and the natural slope (upper) of the REL is supposed to add to the natural slope of the speaker (Lower) and try to replicate the closest to a straight line (not easy). the positioning and the angle of the Sub is very critical and it does take a lot of time.
a corner /near corner placement is important for these as the subs amp is usually in the 100-150W unit and hence may not be able to give you the low bass it is capable off. a corner adds 9dB. the subs which can be placed away from corners usually have much higher powered amps.
eg in my speaker, which has a 44Hz 2dB point, the Sub is crossed over at 31Hz..and i just get to hear the 20-25hz notes. at a lower crossover Bass becomes much better, but the midrange suffers and above it i see a thickening and additional emphasis on the midrange.
Now if you had an active electronic crossover , your problem would have been easier and you could corssover atan exact freq.
What i suggest you do is place your sub at the place you sit with phase at 0 and walk around the room. find the place it sounds Loudest..that is your ideal position which takes your room into confidence.
once you find that, play around with phase/loudness and angle of placement to get the best possible integeration.
Rel (the old designs..not sure of new) are not really subwoofers but Sub Bass units and they work by boosting and adding on to the lower end of the speakers. the rels do not have a Low pass crossover..the sealed box design acts as a natural 24db d Crossover . Hence when you set a level you need to set it much lower than the 6dB point of the speaker and the natural slope (upper) of the REL is supposed to add to the natural slope of the speaker (Lower) and try to replicate the closest to a straight line (not easy). the positioning and the angle of the Sub is very critical and it does take a lot of time.
a corner /near corner placement is important for these as the subs amp is usually in the 100-150W unit and hence may not be able to give you the low bass it is capable off. a corner adds 9dB. the subs which can be placed away from corners usually have much higher powered amps.
eg in my speaker, which has a 44Hz 2dB point, the Sub is crossed over at 31Hz..and i just get to hear the 20-25hz notes. at a lower crossover Bass becomes much better, but the midrange suffers and above it i see a thickening and additional emphasis on the midrange.
Now if you had an active electronic crossover , your problem would have been easier and you could corssover atan exact freq.
What i suggest you do is place your sub at the place you sit with phase at 0 and walk around the room. find the place it sounds Loudest..that is your ideal position which takes your room into confidence.
once you find that, play around with phase/loudness and angle of placement to get the best possible integeration.
Ok I made a mistake. Its a 12dB slope I wanted when I shortlisted subs and 12dB is what it has.
From the Manual
Corner is what REL recommends and appeals the user to defy conventional thinking
Heading out right now to find a UK plug adaptor so I can experiment with corners.
HTH
--G0bble
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