Bi-Amping and Bi-Wiring

[svenkateshsmart]

Bi-amping and Bi-wiring:

Before going on a hiatus due to exams (finally dates were confirmed), I thought I would share the following with you all. Experts are welcome to correct me if I am wrong at any point or add if something is missing.

A number of my friends, who have tried these below, tell me that bi-amping makes the sound quality more clearer and tighter. Though I have not tried any of them, I have helped my friends in doing this and I have noticed a good, if not significant (bad ears), difference in sound quality, especially in the dipoles and bipoles. Srinisundar has recently bought a bipole Wharfdale DFS surrounds, which has these bi-amp options. We were discussing about this today. These below info was gathered by me when I was looking out for surrounds to complete my 7.1, but then turned my interests to BDP and got one now, have been using my yammy satellites, and will be going on for some Wharfedale surrounds down the road.

You need to remove the bridge for the following 2 methods:

Here it goes:

Bi-wiring
The bi-wire connection separates the woofer from the combined midrange and tweeter section. A bi-wire compatible speaker has 4 binding post terminals. These two sets of terminals allows the speaker to be split into two independent sections. The split connects the mid and high frequency drivers to one set of terminals and the low frequency driver to the other pair.
Steps:
Ensure that your system is powered OFF.
Remove the bi-wire bridges from each speaker (this separates the LPF & HPF crossovers).
Connect each amplifier channel to its respective speaker section as shown.

Bi-Amping:
Here are the steps to connect speakers in the bi-amplification mode:
Power off your system.
Remove the bi-wire bridges from each speaker (this separates the LPF & HPF crossovers).
Connect each amplifier channel to its respective speaker section as shown.
Set the level controls on the amplifiers such that the signal will arrive at all speaker terminals at the same power-volume level. If your amplifiers are identical, it is usually sufficient to set all the amplifier level controls the same. The speaker's built-in crossover is designed to match the efficiency of all the individual drivers (tweeters, midranges, and woofers). When using the bi-amplifier connection you must directly deal with some of these issues by adjusting levels according to your listening preference.

Hope this helps! Bye for now and see you all soon! Wish you all a very happy Pongal!

Cheers!

 

[svenkateshsmart]

@ svenkateshsmart:

What you pictorially demonstrated for bi-amping was "Horizontal Bi-amping". Alternatively, a better way would be to dedicate ONE STEREO amplifier for LEFT SPEAKER and similarly ONE STEREO AMPLIFIER for the RIGHT SPEAKER. But you will require Two identical stereo amps for this. This is "Vertical Bi-amping" and the benefits are:

1. Better channel separation as amps are now in monoblock form with completely separate Left ch and a Right ch.

2. Dynamics are also better with lesser loading on the amp's PSU.

3. Much shorter speaker cable runs as amplifiers can be parked close to each speaker - hence less power losses.

Hi Audio_engr,

Glad that you chipped in and explained another way of doing it. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[dinyaar]

What Audio engr has suggested is the better way.
In the former method the amp that is driving low freq of both speakers works much much harder than the other amp which is basically driving only the HF.
Have tried all this and have now removed all the clutter and happy using one integrated & single wiring my speakers BUT replacing the jumpers with something better.
Before anyone attempts Biwiring one must take the cheaper alternative by just removing the metal plates and linking the two units with a cable jumper.
Rgds

 

[ravin]

Suppose I use 1 int. amp (PM7001, NAD C355) that have terminals A and B. and connect the wires as following (speaker bridges removed):

Terminal A ==> LF+ and LF- speaker cables (copper) left/right
Terminal B ===> HF+ and HF- speaker cables (silver) left/right

If each terminal is driven separetely, is that biwiring or biamping (with one int. amp.)?

 

[psychotropic]

Has anyone here noticed any benefit with bi-wiring?

 

[vijay_ditango]

Vertical bi-amping only works with two identical amps (which i dont think exists even if u buy the same model). Best way is horizontal bi-amping, where we can drive lows and high with different amps. We can choose a tube for highs and solid state for lows.

Bi-wiring = terminology invented by cable companies to cheat. It should not make difference at all.

 

[S.P.KRISHNA]

Has anyone here noticed any benefit with bi-wiring?

Debatable . Left to individuals ear. Refer

Index of /~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire

Regards.

 

[vijay_ditango]

The link only confirms what i was saying.
For front speakers the cable length will anyway be shorter and if we use a thicker cable then the resistance is near to zero, then nothing will matter at all.

 

[murali]

This is my personal experience on this subject...

When I bought the Vandersteen speakers and Richard Vandersteen strongly recommends biwiring or biamping (unlike Jim Thiel who designed speakers only for single wiring), I initially got a pair of Quad 99 stereo power amps and ran them vertically biamped (one amplifier for one speaker as audio engr suggests) with van den Hul cables. They were good. After getting the Ayre power amp (single stereo amplifier), I discarded the Quad and van den Hul and used a Audioquest Gibraltar (with 36V dbs) single biwire with the Vandys. The performance was far far better especially in resolution, imaging and soundstage. Then I replaced the single biwire with a double biwire (AQ Volcano) and the entire system moved into a higher plane with greater focus, ambience and several other attributes.

To conclude, the speaker design determines the effectiveness of single vs biwiring (even my old Polks had biwire terminals with connecting strip and I had run them biwired without noticing any significant improvements) and therefore, if your speaker performs better with biwire, go for it. But my experience is that your electronics followed by cable quality should get more attention before you seriously start spending money on biwiring or biamping. Remember, a single good quality wire with a good amplifier will perform better than a pair of mediocre bi amplifiers and cables.

My advice has always been that unless you build your basic system to a high level, don't invest in exotic cables, biwiring, racks and stands. These accessories will give you value for money by significantly improving your system provided it is already good. It is more like some of the so-called "digitally remastered stereo" songs from old Hindi, Tamil and other movies many of which have original recording flaws (also mono) and only worsen with this crap they are selling. At the same time, look at an old Beatles CD recorded in mono which still sells in mono and sounds exemplary with no artificial fine tuning.

cheers.
murali

 

[arj]

i also completely agree with the above.
in fact it is also speaker specific..i tried Biwiring with my speaker and it made the sound " hard " and not with the same musical flow..perhaps more detailed but the essence was lost

But with some other speakers it really makes a big difference.

Regarding

The link only confirms what i was saying.
For front speakers the cable length will anyway be shorter and if we use a thicker cable then the resistance is near to zero, then nothing will matter at all.

Speaker cables are not just about resistance. to make it simplistic it is about Impedance which has a capacitive and an inductive component and bot vary with frequency of the signal in different ways. hence depending on the frequency of the signal the net impedance is different.

let us not even get into factors like the skin and triboelectric effects

So a thicker cable does not necessarily mean better cable .

 

[suri]

< Murali > : IMHO - once you move to the upper strata of the AQ/AT range of cables, i.e. SPK CABLES --> Volcano & Everest, IC --> Sky, its very difficult to settle for anything else. These cables are remarkable (though awfully expensive! oouchh!!) & give you everything that you could ever want in your music. I've used the Diamond IC for a long time now & moved onto their Sky that gets even better!

Cheers!

YES!!!!! yes,yes, yes!
100%
i can see where you are at.

- i do miss the village life, though!

 

[murali]

< Murali > : IMHO - once you move to the upper strata of the AQ/AT range of cables, i.e. SPK CABLES --> Volcano & Everest, IC --> Sky, its very difficult to settle for anything else. These cables are remarkable (though awfully expensive! oouchh!!) & give you everything that you could ever want in your music. I've used the Diamond IC for a long time now & moved onto their Sky that gets even better!

Cheers!

True. In this trip to India, I managed to get a (used) AQ Sky (balanced) and replaced the Grover Huffman balanced IC (which itself is quite good for $300) between Ayre CDP and ARC Reference-3. What a difference it makes! The attack, the decay of notes, the body, everything is pitch perfect.
Interesting thing is that some of my friends in other forums like audioasylum have been using AQ Sky, Cheetah etc even with electronics costing less than their prices and find them wonderful. One even uses a Synergistic Research Tesla specially made for Rel subs though the sub costs less than the cable. By the way, I use 10ft long XLO-REL cables more sanely priced and find them great and affordable and much better than the stock Rel cables.

cheers.
murali

 

[murali]

I was introduced to the AQ Diamond in 1995 & since then have found that almost wherever I used that IC, it made wonders! provided the system was basically decent & placement cum room etc quite acceptable. Having used the Diamond for years now, the Sky takes it a step further in all the traits. The good thing is that Sky can be located at somewhat affordable pricing now as its crazy to pay AQ's asking price!

Roger Skoff's XLO is another cable I greatly favor. Basically I find Skoff a no-nonsense guy. He delivers what he claims.

But IMHO, I feel the AQ is 1 or few step more in their IC design than their Speaker cables. Straightwire, Tara Labs are good on the speaker cables I find. So is XLO.

REL's Richard E Lord doesn't steer the company anymore or else I have confidence that he can/could come up with great solutions. I still fondly recall my purchase of Studio-II (Pair) from him at his factory in 1999. He made me sign a Sterling 50 Bond that should I bring the house down, REL is not to be blamed :lol:

Interesting. I run two Rel Strata-5 subs each connected to each front speaker using high level connections and since my HT setup is integrated to the hifi, I also use the LFE inputs of the Stratas from the surround processor, a great feature in the Rel. In 2-channel stereo listening (CD, SACD, DVDA from Ayre C-5xe, Audio Research Ref-3, Ayre V-5xe, Vandy 2Ce Signtaure), the sub just looks at the main amp output and subtley auguments the deep bass (Rel crossover set at 22Hz) and with the ARC preamp capable of extending upto 100 kHz, the sound is pristine and full bodied; I never feel the Rel in action separately. In movies, the LFE sounds are quite effective but never window-shattering. I am surprised to hear Mr. Lord's claim of bringing the house down! I have never felt the Strata with its closed box design that perfect for LFE booms.

After burning my money with Customs people when bringing in the Vandy speakers, I never attempted to go after their famous 2WQ subs which have the unique feature of putting a high pass filter before the power amp and I believe that is the only sub designed like that. This relieves the main amp from having to reproduce the low bass and the mid-range and treble become cleaner. As far as I have learned, apart from the Vandy and Rel, only Bag End subs and some of the M&K ones are considered as the most musical ones capable of integrating well with the mains.

Just an experience sharing.

My time is running out and I am leaving tomorrow night to "there".

Happy listening.
murali

 

[Dr.Bass]

There is no two ways the Biwiring WORKS and works BIGTIME !!!
But only with speakers which are designed internally for biwiring. Just having two sets of binding posts doesnt mean anything. Most speakers internally have just one crossover where both the wires ultimately meet so it is like single wiring with two wires (hence all the unpredictables take place). In true bi/tri wiring the crossover for each driver is separate and its connected to its respective binding post. So you have a crossover for the tweeter only which has circuit to cut off the frequencies below 2khz with a specified slope...thats it !!!. Similar stuff is done for the woofers. You can read why Biwiring works, here:

Answer 7

Another thing I fully agree with Richard Vandersteen is, you CANNOT use separate cables for lows and highs in a real biwiring speaker. If you do that you will lose the focus and oneness in the music. It happens due to the reason Vandersteen has clearly explained. Just at the crossover point where both the drivers have an overlapping frequency range (both drivers playing that range), they do not overlap equally as the designer has designed it to be and that is because the two different wires are carrying slightly different nature of the same signal and hence that causes the drivers to not integrate as coherently as designed. Ultimately you hear less coherent music.

Same is true for biamping with different amps for lows and highs. You can never match the gains of the two amps to perfection. It is possible by using some DSPs but its a super dicey affair to get it right. It is normally done right only by the manufacturers who produce active speakers with different amps inside the speakers, all gain and timbre matched to perfection.

Summary : Biwiring or Biamping must and should be done with the same cables and amps.

 

[makemywish]

Bi-amping and Bi-wiring:

Before going on a hiatus due to exams (finally dates were confirmed), I thought I would share the following with you all. Experts are welcome to correct me if I am wrong at any point or add if something is missing.

A number of my friends, who have tried these below, tell me that bi-amping makes the sound quality more clearer and tighter. Though I have not tried any of them, I have helped my friends in doing this and I have noticed a good, if not significant (bad ears), difference in sound quality, especially in the dipoles and bipoles. Srinisundar has recently bought a bipole Wharfdale DFS surrounds, which has these bi-amp options. We were discussing about this today. These below info was gathered by me when I was looking out for surrounds to complete my 7.1, but then turned my interests to BDP and got one now, have been using my yammy satellites, and will be going on for some Wharfedale surrounds down the road.

You need to remove the bridge for the following 2 methods:

Here it goes:

Bi-wiring
The bi-wire connection separates the woofer from the combined midrange and tweeter section. A bi-wire compatible speaker has 4 binding post terminals. These two sets of terminals allows the speaker to be split into two independent sections. The split connects the mid and high frequency drivers to one set of terminals and the low frequency driver to the other pair.
Steps:
Ensure that your system is powered OFF.
Remove the bi-wire bridges from each speaker (this separates the LPF & HPF crossovers).
Connect each amplifier channel to its respective speaker section as shown.

Bi-Amping:
Here are the steps to connect speakers in the bi-amplification mode:
Power off your system.
Remove the bi-wire bridges from each speaker (this separates the LPF & HPF crossovers).
Connect each amplifier channel to its respective speaker section as shown.
Set the level controls on the amplifiers such that the signal will arrive at all speaker terminals at the same power-volume level. If your amplifiers are identical, it is usually sufficient to set all the amplifier level controls the same. The speaker's built-in crossover is designed to match the efficiency of all the individual drivers (tweeters, midranges, and woofers). When using the bi-amplifier connection you must directly deal with some of these issues by adjusting levels according to your listening preference.

Hope this helps! Bye for now and see you all soon! Wish you all a very happy Pongal!

Cheers!

The whole point of the web is linking instead of copy-pasting from other web sites. I am sure I have seen the pictures somewhere, AVforums.com perhaps?

 

[svenkateshsmart]

The whole point of the web is linking instead of copy-pasting from other web sites. I am sure I have seen the pictures somewhere, AVforums.com perhaps?

Hi,

But you can't say that the contents are also copied and pasted. Pictures, yes, from the google images, which I thought would help the forum members.

Cheers!

 

[marsilians]

The whole point of the web is linking instead of copy-pasting from other web sites. I am sure I have seen the pictures somewhere, AVforums.com perhaps?

Take it easy friend...you may want to write something positive and of value before being judgemental.

Also I can show you umpteen examples where content is copied instead of being linked on the 'web'.

 

[captrajesh]

hey pal :

This being your very 1st Post, I am appalled at your attitude! Astounding.....
Now - please do enjoy yourself here (if you desire to, that is!) instead of looking at all the faults around you....

BTW - we try & follow some rules & decorum around here! So would advise you to be kind enough to look them up & do the needful. (Incidentally, its called "Introductions". You'll find it on the Forum Frontpage itself).

Cheers mate!

Well said

 

[Guns]

@ svenkateshsmart:

What you pictorially demonstrated for bi-amping was "Horizontal Bi-amping". Alternatively, a better way would be to dedicate ONE STEREO amplifier for LEFT SPEAKER and similarly ONE STEREO AMPLIFIER for the RIGHT SPEAKER. But you will require Two identical stereo amps for this. This is "Vertical Bi-amping" and the benefits are:

1. Better channel separation as amps are now in monoblock form with completely separate Left ch and a Right ch.

2. Dynamics are also better with lesser loading on the amp's PSU.

3. Much shorter speaker cable runs as amplifiers can be parked close to each speaker - hence less power losses.

Hi
I have done the same as above, connected two Rotel RB980BX amps to the speakers and the result was much better than using a single amp. further you may need to have a "Y" connector if your pre amp does not have two output.

 

[svenkateshsmart]

Actually, if the content is copied from another website, the correct decorum is to quote a small portion of the content and provide a link to the original content.

Technically, what was done in the original post with the image is wrong as it infringes on the author's copyright. makemywish is correct - one of our other members got into trouble earlier because of this.

Hi,

Did you mean to contents were also copied???