Building a system from scratch

jenson

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Can imagine how this question may have been hashed and re-hashed in here...but here goes.

Musical preference: Radiohead, Scissor sisters, Nouvelle Vague, George Michael, Yes, Dreamtheater, Pink Floyd, Rush, Soundgarden, Maroon 5, Queen, Dire straits, cutting crew, simple minds, johhny hates jazz and likes.

I like classical music as well and plan to build a collection on LP's for the same. not much into jazz at this point, however, love listening to them time and again.

The million $ quesion - Budget:- 3 lakhs (all inclusive, 1 lakh at a time spread in 3-5 months)

Current scenario: At present i have all the music on CD's. but, as mentioned, i plan to include LP's therefore a turntable. however, i would stress on CD as a source in the budget with the option to add turntable into the mix later on.

Where do i plan to Use it: I have bought a new flat; and plan to dedicate one bedroom for Music and movies. however, this budget and focus is strictly for music. so, it's going to be a leather sofa with carpet up front and ambient lighting to soak up hours.

What do i need help with:
  1. CD players
  2. DAC's (if it helps paint the overall picture)
  3. Preferably no preamp, unless you folks strongly feel its a requirement (i think the signal path should be shortest, i could be wrong)
  4. Amplifiers
  5. Speakers
  6. Stands
  7. Racks
  8. isolators
  9. Cables/interconnects

I would like to buy what is absolutely required of the above, to rule out or to add any other components, it needs to make least 5% more OR less significance to the overall sound respectively.

What am i looking for in terms of sound:- warmer glow, detailed midrange, non fatiguing, authority (dire straits slam?), imaging, soundstage. the whole aura of a band playing in your room. to best summarize - a mahavishnu orchestra concert at Rang Bhavan.

What im not looking for: harsh glary highs, brittle sound & boominess.
 
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Do list the gears you may already have in mind. This will be a jump off point for others to chip in with opinions.

Regarding analog, are you thinking of buying new TT or are you open to buying used?

For digital source, instead of CDP, I would suggest a PC with a good sound card and an external DAC. Rip all your CDs into wav and play from the PC using something like a foobar (more digital sounding in my experience) or Soundplayer Lilith (more analog sounding in my experience, but GUI is a pain the sweet behinds).
 
Hey Josh, thanks much for chipping in!

i'm overwhelmed at this point on the number of options available.. however, at this point what i have shortlisted is

1. red wine audio signature 15 + Isabellina DAC with Wadia Itransport as Doc for Ipod and Rega Apollo-R CD Player
2. Eastern Electrics - MiniMax Tube Preamplifier + Eastern Electric Tube DAC Plus + MiniMax Tube Power Amplifier
3. Rega Apollo-R CD Player + Eastern Electric Tube DAC Plus + Rega Brio-R

regarding speakers; im biased towards electrostats..i liked Martin Logans electromotion..the basic version i would presume. not sure if the above combinations would be able to run it though...

two things are slightly evident from what my line of thinking is..both the systems mentioned above have a different signature... im willing to compromise on the overall dynamics if the overall presentation is in a rather clean format; devoid of any gain or distortion...on the other end, im open to a tube based system which would give a slightly colored, warmer, fuller sound.


Im open to used gear for Analog, just need the stamp of approval from folks here; like yourself.

regarding PC as a source, im open to that idea; you feel it's better than investing in a CDP with decent dacs in the fold...?

one other question, if i get a decent cdp with wolfson or other respected dac built in, does it still need a external DAC...?

p.s. i have nothing against solid state amps...
 
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at the risk of sounding like someone who isnt going to demo a lot, i would like to clarify that; im someone who isnt going to test 20-30 systems ..i don't think i have the capacity to register and note the pluses and minuses... hence i need some help in narrowing it down...purely based on the musical taste and preferences
 
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nice of you to have included Yes in the bands that you like. My prized cassette of yesteryears used to be an imported Close To The Edge, the quintessential Yes album. That was at a time when the place used to be flooded with Peacock and Michael cassettes.
By the way, wouldn't the RWA 15, be well, a little underwhelming given the expansive sonic canvas of some of your musical preferences?
Though I must say that amp has some excellent pedigree.
 
nice of you to have included Yes in the bands that you like. My prized cassette of yesteryears used to be an imported Close To The Edge, the quintessential Yes album. That was at a time when the place used to be flooded with Peacock and Michael cassettes.
By the way, wouldn't the RWA 15, be well, a little underwhelming given the expansive sonic canvas of some of your musical preferences?
Though I must say that amp has some excellent pedigree.

Hi Moktan, Yes is simply amazing.. did you get a chance to checkout their latest dvd? - Yes - Acoustic Live [Full DVD] - YouTube

Im in touch with Vinnie @ RWA and Srajan @ 6 moon...both were kind enough to share their thoughts. im told, the RWA needs perfect pairing, apparently, stella, devores and ZU is where RWA shines.. they could be wrong! in your case (30.2), you get a feeling it's paired right...?
 
Hi Moktan, Yes is simply amazing.. did you get a chance to checkout their latest dvd? - Yes - Acoustic Live [Full DVD] - YouTube

Im in touch with Vinnie @ RWA and Srajan @ 6 moon...both were kind enough to share their thoughts. im told, the RWA needs perfect pairing, apparently, stella, devores and ZU is where RWA shines.. they could be wrong! in your case (30.2), you get a feeling it's paired right...?

thanks for the link. the prospect of YES unplugged seems mouth watering to say the least.
since i haven't listened to anything 'better' i would like to believe that my RWA has been paired well with my current single drivers. I am satisfied with my system. Though my listening preferences are quite narrow. The speakers do sound mid-rangy and lack heft when it comes to the occasional Rock listening that I indulge in.
i have also been told that the RWA pairs well with Omega speakers (Super 6 Monitor or the Super 6 XRS) and of course our very own Rethms.
In fact in my correspondence with Mr George he has confirmed that RWA comes closest to sounding like tubes as far as the amplification for his speakers were concerned.
"warm lush sound" was what he described it as.
This was also confirmed by Prem a very respected member here. Maybe you should get in touch with him, if you have not already done so. If I am not mistaken he had paired the RWA with the Rethms at some point in time.
In fact Rethm is my dream upgrade. The idea of Omegas had to be shelved because the shipping alone was costing a lot of $$$.
 
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truly appreciate your inputs Moktan. what are the odds of me sending an email to rethm yesterday :)


ill drop in a PM to Prem as well, will sure do!
 
regarding speakers; im biased towards electrostats..i liked Martin Logans electromotion..the basic version i would presume. not sure if the above combinations would be able to run it though...

If you like Martin Logans, chances are good that you will like the Magneplanars as well. There is a dealership in Mumbai. There is also probably a gentleman who may want to part with his spare Maggies.

Im open to used gear for Analog, just need the stamp of approval from folks here; like yourself.

You should look for a heavy-hitting direct drive from the 70s-80s. Technics SL xxxx series comes to mind. If you can score a top-of-the-line Kenwood or Pioneer or Technics or Sony, you will be set. But they are rare and not cheap.


regarding PC as a source, im open to that idea; you feel it's better than investing in a CDP with decent dacs in the fold...?

If you read through the various threads on PC sound cards in the forum, it seems PC audio is the way forward. The only caveat is that one needs a decent to good DAC in the chain. But you eliminate a bigger box, namely, the CDP. If you have the space to house all these boxes, no harm in having a dedicated CDP but you will need to spend a big chunk of your budget on it if you want a good performer. I don't think an entry-level CDP will outperform a decently specced music PC. I have invested rather heavily on a CDP (which is also a pre amp and an upsampling DAC) so it is not going away any time soon. I have also invested lots of time (but not too much money) on music PC and in ripping all my CDs. So both will stay and co-exist happily. I like both as they have different presentations.


one other question, if i get a decent cdp with wolfson or other respected dac built in, does it still need a external DAC...?

A CDP's quality does not rest solely on the DAC chip. More often than not, it is the implementation of the analog part of the circuitry and the filters that makes the big difference. IMHO, CDPs with tubed output stage rule.
 
Joshua, exactly the kind of help (perspective) im looking for.

regarding electrostats, what am i compromising with? i know you have spent a lot of time with cadence amayas, anything in the overall tonality you missed out on in the longer run or are you pretty happy with it. btw, i liked your system very much; however what i noted was, all cd's didnt play with the same consistency, some of the music you played shone right thru..has it to do with the recordings? is that what they mean by a system being forgiving or unforgiving?

regarding, PC as a source, i guess it makes sense to save money on expensive CDP's and rather invest that money in a good DAC.

Regarding Analog - any reliable source to procure these...it's very easy to get carried away with all these garrards floating around for a bomb..


Moktan - thank you for shring your views on RWA audio, i also appreciate you sharing a detailed review by gobble on the said system, i could literally picture the sound in my head!
 
Can imagine how this question may have been hashed and re-hashed in here...but here goes.

Musical preference: Radiohead, Scissor sisters, Nouvelle Vague, George Michael, Yes, Dreamtheater, Pink Floyd, Rush, Soundgarden, Maroon 5, Queen, Dire straits, cutting crew, simple minds, johhny hates jazz and likes.

I like classical music as well and plan to build a collection on LP's for the same. not much into jazz at this point, however, love listening to them time and again.

The million $ quesion - Budget:- 3 lakhs (all inclusive, 1 lakh at a time spread in 3-5 months)

Current scenario: At present i have all the music on CD's. but, as mentioned, i plan to include LP's therefore a turntable. however, i would stress on CD as a source in the budget with the option to add turntable into the mix later on.

Where do i plan to Use it: I have bought a new flat; and plan to dedicate one bedroom for Music and movies. however, this budget and focus is strictly for music. so, it's going to be a leather sofa with carpet up front and ambient lighting to soak up hours.

What do i need help with:
  1. CD players
  2. DAC's (if it helps paint the overall picture)
  3. Preferably no preamp, unless you folks strongly feel its a requirement (i think the signal path should be shortest, i could be wrong)
  4. Amplifiers
  5. Speakers
  6. Stands
  7. Racks
  8. isolators
  9. Cables/interconnects

I would like to buy what is absolutely required of the above, to rule out or to add any other components, it needs to make least 5% more OR less significance to the overall sound respectively.

What am i looking for in terms of sound:- warmer glow, detailed midrange, non fatiguing, authority (dire straits slam?), imaging, soundstage. the whole aura of a band playing in your room. to best summarize - a mahavishnu orchestra concert at Rang Bhavan.

What im not looking for: harsh glary highs, brittle sound & boominess.

Since you stay very close to my home, you have a last option of auditioning AVidyarthi's TL FS speakers if you wish this weekend. After that it will be shipped to New Delhi. These speakers are going to be compared with Thiel Audio CS3.7 by Blasto, Ann and others at Avidyarthi's home later next month. Check out the below link for details.
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/25562-evening-spent-tweaking-avidyarthys-atl-speakers.html
 
You must go and listen to Hari's design. You will be surprised at the coherence of a 2-way design and be even more surprised by the tight, deep bass a 6-7 inch woofer can muster in the TL configuration.
 
i did audition one of his offerings (which you folks had a chance to demo at AV forum), no doubt it's a good one.
 
Joshua, exactly the kind of help (perspective) im looking for.

regarding electrostats, what am i compromising with? i know you have spent a lot of time with cadence amayas, anything in the overall tonality you missed out on in the longer run or are you pretty happy with it. btw, i liked your system very much; however what i noted was, all cd's didnt play with the same consistency, some of the music you played shone right thru..has it to do with the recordings? is that what they mean by a system being forgiving or unforgiving?

regarding, PC as a source, i guess it makes sense to save money on expensive CDP's and rather invest that money in a good DAC.

Regarding Analog - any reliable source to procure these...it's very easy to get carried away with all these garrards floating around for a bomb..

My speakers are hybrids - electrostat panels crossed over at about 920 Hz to the 10 inch woofers. They are like the Martin Logans and not like Maggies or Quads.

I don't consider my system particularly transparent. The differences you heard in different CDs is due to the differences in the individual CDs. No wonder people hunt down and pay a premium for audiophile CDs and records. I was unhappy for a long time with the quality of bass (boomy and flabby) but experimentations with placement over weeks have tamed and tightened the bass. A more recent placement tweak was to fire the speakers almost straight ahead with only minimal toe-in. An old audio hand (bhagwan, on the forum) advised me to do this and the quality and quantity of treble has improved tremendously. The electrostats sound best off-axis. With the improvements thus wrought, my "secret" plan to acquire a pair of Tannoy floorstanders is in cold storage for now. Hope it stays that way.

For getting a good TT, one must watch (a lot), spread the word around to regular sellers, and wait till one comes along. Run-of-the-mill ones are available aplenty. Don't hurry. But do start thinking about a good phono stage if the amps you have in mind don't come with in-built phono stage.

Also, do understand that the famed Garrard 301 or 401, or Thorens TD 124s or Lenco L75 will need lots of hard and difficult work before they start sounding good as advertised. Work as in a new heavy plinth, and probably a new arm and cartridge as well. So the current 70-80K going price is only a starting point. One needs to spend more. More importantly, one has to have the bent and willingness to undertake the journey of restoration. Meaning its not for everyone.
 
I don't consider my system particularly transparent. The differences you heard in different CDs is due to the differences in the individual CDs. No wonder people hunt down and pay a premium for audiophile CDs and records. I was unhappy for a long time with the quality of bass (boomy and flabby) but experimentations with placement over weeks have tamed and tightened the bass. A more recent placement tweak was to fire the speakers almost straight ahead with only minimal toe-in. An old audio hand (bhagwan, on the forum) advised me to do this and the quality and quantity of treble has improved tremendously. The electrostats sound best off-axis. With the improvements thus wrought, my "secret" plan to acquire a pair of Tannoy floorstanders is in cold storage for now. Hope it stays that way.

Sounds good! on some cd's it really glittered, for lack of better word.


For getting a good TT, one must watch (a lot), spread the word around to regular sellers, and wait till one comes along. Run-of-the-mill ones are available aplenty. Don't hurry. But do start thinking about a good phono stage if the amps you have in mind don't come with in-built phono stage.

yup, i guess you could sense i was in a hurry :) yup, patience is a virtue. guys have got lucky on this forum or otherwise.

Also, do understand that the famed Garrard 301 or 401, or Thorens TD 124s or Lenco L75 will need lots of hard and difficult work before they start sounding good as advertised. Work as in a new heavy plinth, and probably a new arm and cartridge as well. So the current 70-80K going price is only a starting point. One needs to spend more. More importantly, one has to have the bent and willingness to undertake the journey of restoration. Meaning its not for everyone.


yup, thats what i realized..getitng into it can be one crazed, bottomless pit. and the worst part, i dont think anyone here restores them to that level...i could be wrong.. ill keep a close watch on that one.

regarding DAC's and Amplfiers - any companies/model no.s that i should add to my demo list.. (tube, solid state)
 
regarding DAC's and Amplfiers - any companies/model no.s that i should add to my demo list.. (tube, solid state)

I don't know much about DACs. For amp, I would suggest listening to used Ayon KT88-based tube amps. They sound wonderful.
 
Joshua - very hard to see who is selling them on internet... any dealers in India..?
 
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