Burn-in with measurements as proof

[manek]

Hey there.

I wanted to post this in the DIY section as I am looking for the responses from people who build stuff.

Has anyone measured the “change in sound” post burn-in v/s when the component was new ? When I mean measured I mean with instruments.

Have been in this hobby for decades but had been just a little skeptical on this phenomenon of burn-in until I started DIY.
This then has led me to think that burn-in like the phenomenon when you go to buy a ready made jacket/suit and the salesman wants to make that sale and make sure there isnt a return of the sold item inspite of the fact that the sleeves are a longer than whats comfortable for the client so he says “dont worry sir, they will ride up with wear”. but they never do…

Or is it that the human mind just needs time to adjust to the change in sound(or sleeve length) from a new system or piece of hardware. I do believe that the ubiquitous 100-200 hours of burn in time was and is a standard across most manufacturers inspite of the fact they used very different component makes, materials, etc in their designs and still amps, speakers, TT, cables, connectors, etc all had the 100-200 hours as recommended burn-in time.

Were they insulating themselves against returns ?

Your thoughts….

 

[shibashis]

I do not know about measurements but 'burn-in' is a thing, I am certain of it. The oft used rebuttal against 'bun-in' is that your mind gets used to the new sound since you are listening to it, you are perhaps in a way molded to like the new sound. I, however have a different case to propose, my case study was with earphones and speakers.
A new set of earphones sounded perfect trash while the reviews all raved about it, I could not believe what I was listening to, it was that bad. I was in disbelief how poor it sounded. For a change I read the manual that came with it and the manufacturer clearly mentioned that we should give the earphones about 50 hours of burn-in time before expecting them to sound at their best.
What I did was very simple, I had an HTC One M10 that was not being used. I plugged the earphones to it and just let Spotify loose for a full day and night. So I did not hear the sound of the earphones, they were playing at one corner without notice. The next day when I finally did listen to them again, the difference was like the proverbial night and day. So for me burn-in is a fact.

The same phenomenon in repeat right now with my newly acquired Hifiman Edition XS. Again the sound out of the box was distinctly underwhelming. I repeated the same trick, couple of days later they sound like the best $500 headphone people claim they are. Hifiman by the way recommend $150 hours of burn-in for these.

For me at least, burn-in is real.

 

[DB1989]

Hey there.

I wanted to post this in the DIY section as I am looking for the responses from people who build stuff.

Has anyone measured the “change in sound” post burn-in v/s when the component was new ? When I mean measured I mean with instruments.

Have been in this hobby for decades but had been just a little skeptical on this phenomenon of burn-in until I started DIY.
This then has led me to think that burn-in like the phenomenon when you go to buy a ready made jacket/suit and the salesman wants to make that sale and make sure there isnt a return of the sold item inspite of the fact that the sleeves are a longer than whats comfortable for the client so he says “dont worry sir, they will ride up with wear”. but they never do…

Or is it that the human mind just needs time to adjust to the change in sound(or sleeve length) from a new system or piece of hardware. I do believe that the ubiquitous 100-200 hours of burn in time was and is a standard across most manufacturers inspite of the fact they used very different component makes, materials, etc in their designs and still amps, speakers, TT, cables, connectors, etc all had the 100-200 hours as recommended burn-in time.

Were they insulating themselves against returns ?

Your thoughts….

I have the tools i.e. a Umik-1 and while i do measure my gear regularly, the thought which never crossed me. Burn-in has been very real in my experience with some components, especially speakers such as the Wharfedale Evo 4.2, and invariably for all subwoofers.

And subs do provide a simple primer on the phenomenon inasmuch as they usually sound lifeless and flat right out of the box and require the gain to be turned up quite high to eke out any bass. A good 2-3 hours of burning in and I find myself reducing the gain on the sub by as much as 50% in some cases.

Guess its time to upgrade in pursuit of a worthy cause!

 

[manek]

I do not know about measurements but 'burn-in' is a thing, I am certain of it. The oft used rebuttal against 'bun-in' is that your mind gets used to the new sound since you are listening to it, you are perhaps in a way molded to like the new sound. I, however have a different case to propose, my case study was with earphones and speakers.
A new set of earphones sounded perfect trash while the reviews all raved about it, I could not believe what I was listening to, it was that bad. I was in disbelief how poor it sounded. For a change I read the manual that came with it and the manufacturer clearly mentioned that we should give the earphones about 50 hours of burn-in time before expecting them to sound at their best.
What I did was very simple, I had an HTC One M10 that was not being used. I plugged the earphones to it and just let Spotify loose for a full day and night. So I did not hear the sound of the earphones, they were playing at one corner without notice. The next day when I finally did listen to them again, the difference was like the proverbial night and day. So for me burn-in is a fact.

The same phenomenon in repeat right now with my newly acquired Hifiman Edition XS. Again the sound out of the box was distinctly underwhelming. I repeated the same trick, couple of days later they sound like the best $500 headphone people claim they are. Hifiman by the way recommend $150 hours of burn-in for these.

For me at least, burn-in is real.

Hmmm
The same for me with my focal listen headphones. Bought them for use on the move though I had my AT’s. Day1 didnt like them for xyz reasons. Its been 2+ years since I’ve had them and I still dont like them for the same xyz reasons but have grown to accept them for what they are. I now focus on their positive aspects. Now I could have easily sold them but didn't.
Thats what I mean by the brain getting used to a piece of component. Burn-in didn't change much for me audibly.
Hence the skepticism.

Manek

 

[manek]

I have the tools i.e. a Umik-1 and while i do measure my gear regularly, the thought which never crossed me. Burn-in has been very real in my experience with some components, especially speakers such as the Wharfedale Evo 4.2, and invariably for all subwoofers.

And subs do provide a simple primer on the phenomenon inasmuch as they usually sound lifeless and flat right out of the box and require the gain to be turned up quite high to eke out any bass. A good 2-3 hours of burning in and I find myself reducing the gain on the sub by as much as 50% in some cases.

Guess its time to upgrade in pursuit of a worthy cause!

I get where you are coming from in terms of speakers(headphones to an extent as well). They have moving parts, surrounds, etc. that may need to get a bit supple. So the 20 hours I can relate to.

Since you have a measuring tool what did you see in-terms of the difference in data captured initially and post 20-30 hours?

Curious to know.

Thanks

 

[skk]

Have not measured, but have felt difference pre and post burn-in for headphones and speakers. I think the components especially the speaker diaphragm might be a bit stiff/rigid post manufacturing and during the burn-in it loosens up/achieves required elasticity to produce better sound as per intended design.
Not sure how burn-in affects components such as audio cables or amps though.

 

[drlowmu]

Existing measuring tools are excellent - but one dimensional in what they measure. Music , however, has multiple events, all happening simultaneously. Only the human brain can tell such differences.

Jeff

 

[DB1989]

I get where you are coming from in terms of speakers(headphones to an extent as well). They have moving parts, surrounds, etc. that may need to get a bit supple. So the 20 hours I can relate to.

Exactly. And since they audibly change the sound, it's an artefact of burn in.

Since you have a measuring tool what did you see in-terms of the difference in data captured initially and post 20-30 hours?

Thats what. I hadn't thought about measuring the effects on sound of any piece of equipment pre and post burn in.

Which is why, it's time for an upgrade!!!

 

[manek]

Have not measured, but have felt difference pre and post burn-in for headphones and speakers. I think the components especially the speaker diaphragm might be a bit stiff/rigid post manufacturing and during the burn-in it loosens up/achieves required elasticity to produce better sound as per intended design.
Not sure how burn-in affects components such as audio cables or amps though.

To my knowledge speaker diaphrams needs to be as stiff as possible and consistently so for least distortion.

Maybe you mean the suspension/surrounds ?

Existing measuring tools are excellent - but one dimensional in what they measure. Music , however, has multiple events, all happening simultaneously. Only the human brain can tell such differences.

Jeff

Pardon my being the devils advocate here but even if the measuring instruments are one dimensional measuring freq response or distortion, or any other single parameter the reason one claims to hear something different is because one or more of those parameters have changed, surely that change needs to be seen on measurements ?

Exactly. And since they audibly change the sound, it's an artefact of burn in.


Thats what. I hadn't thought about measuring the effects on sound of any piece of equipment pre and post burn in.

Which is why, it's time for an upgrade!!!

Please do upgrade in the name of science !
But honestly if burn-in works, a simple 5k worth of desktop speakers or headphones should also go thru a process of burn-in and sound better or for that matter a vfm amp. Maybe members/friends who have just bought equipment could help you with such a measurement exercise ?

 

[drlowmu]

Pardon my being the devils advocate here but even if the measuring instruments are one dimensional measuring freq response or distortion, or any other single parameter the reason one claims to hear something different is because one or more of those parameters have changed, surely that change needs to be seen on measurements ?

Not necessarily !! I don't think so. It is not one dimensional, as there are many things that subtly change. Measure it all simultaneously - with your brain.

How do the world's bet musicians play at the highest levels possible? Besides practice, they are continually using their ear-brain relationship, to almost instantly guide their performance. NO single event measuring equipment is capable, nor wanted !!

 

[DB1989]

NO single event measuring equipment is capable, nor wanted !!

Perpetuating the mystique of high end audio!

 

[drlowmu]

Perpetuating the mystique of high end audio!

Perhaps it is only a mystique to you, or......so it seems to me .

Do you think this guys worries about single-event measuring his performance at any given concert ??

Have decent headphones ?? :

above, son conducting - and father, on piano .

Maurizio Pollini - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jeff

 

[DB1989]

Have decent headphones ??

That would depend. Are we talking about a pair that is considered undesirable to be measured by any one piece of equipment ever?

 

[drlowmu]

No, a pair that generally sounds good.

Ask Hari Iyer about how the DIY speaker wiring he now uses "measures" and sounds - to all others he has tried !

 

[drlowmu]

No, a pair that generally sounds good.

When you answer in less than 9 minutes, that means you did not listen to the music selection. Such a shame.

Ask Hari Iyer about how the DIY speaker wiring he now uses "measures" and sounds - to all others he has tried !

 

[DB1989]

Pardon my being the devils advocate here but even if the measuring instruments are one dimensional measuring freq response or distortion, or any other single parameter the reason one claims to hear something different is because one or more of those parameters have changed, surely that change needs to be seen on measurements ?

No, a pair that generally sounds good.

Ask Hari Iyer about how the DIY speaker wiring he now uses "measures" and sounds - to all others he has tried !

I think that's where the fundamental fallacy lies in most people understanding audio, at least to my mind. People generally focus on one particular set of measurement and view them on a standalone basis to arrive at any particular set of conclusions.

However, as you put it, it is a combination of factors which our senses perceive, our brains decipher to understand whether we (or others) find it generally pleasing and we process it in real-time to understand make the necessary adjustments.

Badly measuring audio can also sound good, depending on the right combination of factors. It is only a matter of understanding how a certain combination of factors work to appeal or detract from our listening preferences as opposed to each factor on a standalone basis. I believe this is an area where our understanding is yet to mature,

To elucidate, we have a certain chilli native to my hometown and vicinity which has gained a considerable amount of notoriety in the internet age viz. the venerable Ghost Pepper ("Bhut Jolokia"). Objectively, it is the spiciest naturally occurring pepper on the planet and I'd daresay nobody in their right mind has ever taken a liking to it when consumed on a standalone basis. However, when added to certain foods, even in copious and outright outrageous quantities and balanced out with other contrasting flavours such as sweet and sour(again, the sheer quantities of lime juice that go into these preparations would not be consumable on a standalone basis), the combination is downright delectable. Is it still fiery HOT? Yes! Is it extremely sour and/or sweet? Absolutely! And I daresay it'd still qualify as one of the most scintillating dishes you'd ever experienced and is certainly a delicacy for those who've tried it!

I can attribute much of Andrew Jones success to his understanding of what makes for a good listen. While he relies heavily on machine measurements, the final tuning is done by the most supreme instrument of them all, his ear.

I've heard speakers and amps lambasted by ASR measurements (the gold standard amongst so-called objectivists?) trample all over their approved darlings because a combination of these quirks simply sound appealing to my ears. The tough nut to crack are the reasons why any particular amalgam of these inherent deficiencies seem to appeal to a person's senses. Then again, its not just the person in question but also the circumstances under which he is listening that add to the experience, pleasant or otherwise.

To further elucidate on how our brains make adjustments depending on realtime inputs, I remember this showdown/?competition? between a certain bowler (Chris Barnes) and this bowling robot which was accurate to the T and yet, lost to the bowler! While the engineers had programmed every single parameter accurately and was much more capable at 'a consistent shot', they had not anticipated/understood/worked out fully how a combination of these factors would change as the game progresses, hence the result.

Insofar as measurements of cables and other audio equipment is concerned, I also scoff at the hubris of objectivists who believe that every single quantifiable variable has been identified/mapped out and at the same time, i do not discount the effects of placebo.

And while I can certainly wrap my head around the statement that "NO single event measuring equipment is capable...", to qualify it further as "nor wanted!!" suggests that certain phenomenon should remain beyond the ilk of human understanding. That i cannot get on board with.

When you answer in less than 9 minutes, that means you did not listen to the music selection. Such a shame.

On the contrary, I was rife with anticipation which is why I wanted to be certain that the headphones employed by me are approved by your good self. As such, i wanted to ensure that I employed the only variable that seems to matter in the present discussion viz. your preferences and understanding of audio. Otherwise, they'd run the risk of being dismissed as not "decent headphones", no matter the objective and subjective provenance, especially since that seems to be the dispensation of this discourse anyway. Hence, the immediate response.

 

[drlowmu]

I think that's where the fundamental fallacy lies in most people understanding audio, at least to my mind. People generally focus on one particular set of measurement and view them on a standalone basis to arrive at any particular set of conclusions.

However, as you put it, it is a combination of factors which our senses perceive, our brains decipher to understand whether we (or others) find it generally pleasing and we process it in real-time to understand make the necessary adjustments.

Badly measuring audio can also sound good, depending on the right combination of factors. It is only a matter of understanding how a certain combination of factors work to appeal or detract from our listening preferences as opposed to each factor on a standalone basis. I believe this is an area where our understanding is yet to mature,

To elucidate, we have a certain chilli native to my hometown and vicinity which has gained a considerable amount of notoriety in the internet age viz. the venerable Ghost Pepper ("Bhut Jolokia"). Objectively, it is the spiciest naturally occurring pepper on the planet and I'd daresay nobody in their right mind has ever taken a liking to it when consumed on a standalone basis. However, when added to certain foods, even in copious and outright outrageous quantities and balanced out with other contrasting flavours such as sweet and sour(again, the sheer quantities of lime juice that go into these preparations would not be consumable on a standalone basis), the combination is downright delectable. Is it still fiery HOT? Yes! Is it extremely sour and/or sweet? Absolutely! And I daresay it'd still qualify as one of the most scintillating dishes you'd ever experienced and is certainly a delicacy for those who've tried it!

I can attribute much of Andrew Jones success to his understanding of what makes for a good listen. While he relies heavily on machine measurements, the final tuning is done by the most supreme instrument of them all, his ear.

I've heard speakers and amps lambasted by ASR measurements (the gold standard amongst so-called objectivists?) trample all over their approved darlings because a combination of these quirks simply sound appealing to my ears. The tough nut to crack are the reasons why any particular amalgam of these inherent deficiencies seem to appeal to a person's senses. Then again, its not just the person in question but also the circumstances under which he is listening that add to the experience, pleasant or otherwise.

To further elucidate on how our brains make adjustments depending on realtime inputs, I remember this showdown/?competition? between a certain bowler (Chris Barnes) and this bowling robot which was accurate to the T and yet, lost to the bowler! While the engineers had programmed every single parameter accurately and was much more capable at 'a consistent shot', they had not anticipated/understood/worked out fully how a combination of these factors would change as the game progresses, hence the result.

Insofar as measurements of cables and other audio equipment is concerned, I also scoff at the hubris of objectivists who believe that every single quantifiable variable has been identified/mapped out and at the same time, i do not discount the effects of placebo.

And while I can certainly wrap my head around the statement that "NO single event measuring equipment is capable...", to qualify it further as "nor wanted!!" suggests that certain phenomenon should remain beyond the ilk of human understanding. That i cannot get on board with.

On the contrary, I was rife with anticipation which is why I wanted to be certain that the headphones employed by me are approved by your good self. As such, i wanted to ensure that I employed the only variable that seems to matter in the present discussion viz. your preferences and understanding of audio. Otherwise, they'd run the risk of being dismissed as not "decent headphones", no matter the objective and subjective provenance, especially since that seems to be the dispensation of this discourse anyway. Hence, the immediate response.

For listening on my computer, to youtube videos, I discovered a modest KOSS Porta Pro Classic does a good enough job to suit my listening needs. It has an always-surprising-to-me performance level......... for a modest cost.

For really critical listening, I use lightly modded Professional ALTEC A7-8 movie theatre two-way horn speakers, and DIY Single Ended Directly Coupled tube amps and wiring I've built, with a mentor-friend's help.

Watch and listen to Maurizio play Beethoven's Emperor Concerto, as some people consider him to be the best Classical pianist living today. What a treat.

Imagine knowing ALL those notes to,play, and not even looking continuously at the keyboard - if need be. He plays with such clarity !!!!

Jeff

 

[surfatwork]

I'd daresay nobody in their right mind has ever taken a liking to it when consumed on a standalone basis.

I love nibbling bhut jolokia on its own, raw. Just love the flavour and aroma. Discovered it during a trip to imphal, brought back some and now grow it in kerala.
I don't know whether that makes me a person of "unsound mind".

Just saying that people are different. When something is subjective, like taste, or quality of music, it's difficult to have a conversation about it. Measurements give us some basis for starting a conversation. It may not be comprehensive, but it's a starter. Doesn't mean that everything that measures badly is bad, or vice versa. But it's good to measure because we are atleast then talking about the same things, rather than just bandying about opinions.

 

[arj]

While the discussions around measurements do get hairy, the point Manek raised is interesting although often discussed/argued but never settled as in most fundamental audio discussions...and doubt if this thread will do that

While the breaking in of Physically moving components like drivers or maybe even motors can be explained the electronic breaking in of an Amp/Phono/cable is not very easy to explain. It can be theoretically argued that the capacitors/inductors/transformers/ cable dielectrics or even soldered connections need to be "Run on" before they settle to their more regular state. I am sure psycho-acoustics, Memory of sound etc are also contributors to this but again also not easy to get over hence the question of "has the ear adjusted to the sound or sound really broken in " is a logical problem statement with possibly no objective answers but several subjective Hypothesis !

Personally I do believe its a little of both as I have heard cables breaking in over time not to mention electronic equipment but have no explanation for it hence will not not even propound/defend or debate the same as denying it is also not easy based on experiences..flawed or otherwise !

 

[jls001]

As a starting point, the OP may like to suggest parameters to measure before and after burn-in.