Cables - Leaving the Signal Untouched

Wharfedale EVO 4.1 4.2 Speakers

superczar

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Just thinking out loud - If one intends to introduce cable induced coloration to the music (and that can surely be a perfectly valid pursuit) then all bets are off.
But for someone who wants the output from the amp to reach the speakers with minimal change (i.e. a basic purist mindset) , would it not be a better idea to simply use the material with the best electrical characteristics for the job at hand?
While technically it would be a massive fat silver strand cable; Realistically would that not be a reasonably thick stranded copper cable?

Coming to think of it, quantum physicists do not go around auditioning cables for their measurement equipment - they simply go with the best engineering design choice
Had that not been the case, perhaps a different brand of wire chosen at CERN could have resulted in the discovery of a Biggs Hoson particle instead of the Higgs Boson!
(or maybe Hog’s Bison? ) :)
 

Fiftyfifty

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Just thinking out loud - If one intends to introduce cable induced coloration to the music (and that can surely be a perfectly valid pursuit) then all bets are off.
But for someone who wants the output from the amp to reach the speakers with minimal change (i.e. a basic purist mindset) , would it not be a better idea to simply use the material with the best electrical characteristics for the job at hand?
While technically it would be a massive fat silver strand cable; Realistically would that not be a reasonably thick stranded copper cable?

Coming to think of it, quantum physicists do not go around auditioning cables for their measurement equipment - they simply go with the best engineering design choice
Had that not been the case, perhaps a different brand of wire chosen at CERN could have resulted in the discovery of a Biggs Hoson particle instead of the Higgs Boson!
(or maybe Hog’s Bison? ) :)

I pretty much agree, except that your room, your ears, your sliding windows, your carpet, are all 'reality'. Spiritual seekers, quantum physicists and audio enthusiasts are eternally in search of the elusive absolute reality ;)
 
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arj

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Just thinking out loud - If one intends to introduce cable induced coloration to the music (and that can surely be a perfectly valid pursuit) then all bets are off.
But for someone who wants the output from the amp to reach the speakers with minimal change (i.e. a basic purist mindset) , would it not be a better idea to simply use the material with the best electrical characteristics for the job at hand?
While technically it would be a massive fat silver strand cable; Realistically would that not be a reasonably thick stranded copper cable?

Coming to think of it, quantum physicists do not go around auditioning cables for their measurement equipment - they simply go with the best engineering design choice
Had that not been the case, perhaps a different brand of wire chosen at CERN could have resulted in the discovery of a Biggs Hoson particle instead of the Higgs Boson!
(or maybe Hog’s Bison? ) :)

I would guess there would be several reasons why an audio signal is very different from those use for scientific measurement devices. Most important being that this signal is several frequencies and amplitudes which must be transmitted and by keeping them all intact . Additionally since each signal is a different frequency they will see a different cable impedance and hence may have different effect on the signal

If it were a solid core your analogy may be right but I would assume that in most multicore the configuration of the cable and their individual coating etc might make the Capacitance and impedance very different and hence impact the low level signals
Its pretty apparent when you listen to them eg a high capacitance cable has a very different presentation than a regular cable.
 

superczar

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I would guess there would be several reasons why an audio signal is very different from those use for scientific measurement devices. Most important being that this signal is several frequencies and amplitudes which must be transmitted and by keeping them all intact . Additionally since each signal is a different frequency they will see a different cable impedance and hence may have different effect on the signal

If it were a solid core your analogy may be right but I would assume that in most multicore the configuration of the cable and their individual coating etc might make the Capacitance and impedance very different and hence impact the low level signals
Its pretty apparent when you listen to them eg a high capacitance cable has a very different presentation than a regular cable.
I am not saying cables won’t make a difference - you can certainly create a speaker cable by design that changes the signal ever so slightly
What I am saying instead is that if the pursuit is to get the signal from the amp to the speakers as unaltered as possible - then the answer to that lies in maths and material science.

At its core, any audio instrument is a signalling device - and the signal it carries is a fairly simple one as compared to e.g. even the ultra cheap ONT device that most of us have ( ISP fiber connection converter)
or the GPS chip on your phone - that actually makes adjustments for quantum positioning when calculating your location.
As a signalling problem, Audio signals lies pretty much at near the bottom end of the complexity scale.
 

Nikhil

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Just thinking out loud - If one intends to introduce cable induced coloration to the music (and that can surely be a perfectly valid pursuit) then all bets are off.
But for someone who wants the output from the amp to reach the speakers with minimal change (i.e. a basic purist mindset) , would it not be a better idea to simply use the material with the best electrical characteristics for the job at hand?

The big problem here is that unless you are the designer, you have no idea what your amp is meant to sound like.
What is minimal change? With reference to what?


I am not saying cables won’t make a difference - you can certainly create a speaker cable by design that changes the signal ever so slightly
What I am saying instead is that if the pursuit is to get the signal from the amp to the speakers as unaltered as possible - then the answer to that lies in maths and material science.

At its core, any audio instrument is a signalling device - and the signal it carries is a fairly simple one as compared to e.g. even the ultra cheap ONT device that most of us have ( ISP fiber connection converter)
or the GPS chip on your phone - that actually makes adjustments for quantum positioning when calculating your location.
As a signalling problem, Audio signals lies pretty much at near the bottom end of the complexity scale.

Again how do you go about finding out that the signal is unaltered?
And if you end up managing that, what if you don't like the sound?
Do you still continue to listen to your setup?



.
 

arj

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What I am saying instead is that if the pursuit is to get the signal from the amp to the speakers as unaltered as possible - then the answer to that lies in maths and material science.

Definitely the answer is in science but the question is not easy to frame and not sure who is interested to answer it considering this is a only a small hobby pursuit by a minuscule population
 

superczar

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The big problem here is that unless you are the designer, you have no idea what your amp is meant to sound like.
What is minimal change? With reference to what?

That’s easy to define - you do not want the wire to do anything... A rms voltage of 3.744461342 V at 0.00700000346461 s at start of playback on the amp terminal should read exactly that on the speaker terminals .
If superconducting wires were available - they would be the answer - period
but since they aren’t , you want the speaker cable to be the closest possible approximation to that.

Again how do you go about finding out that the signal is unaltered?
And if you end up managing that, what if you don't like the sound?
Do you still continue to listen to your setup?

i will go back to my analogy (although it’s a direct parallel and not really an analogy)

if a well designed wire that is true to specifications can conduct an electrical signal to the infinitesimal degree of accuracy so as to measure the quantum movement of a sub atomic particle

OR is precise enough to account for timing differences so small while triangulating a gps signal that the calculations go beyond classical mechanics (And is able to do so on any cheap phone...)

AND had that not been the case, a commercial airliner would end up reaching 20 miles East or West from the runway based on what brand of cables was chosen for the signalling harness for that production run

So If the above is true then a far less precise wire can do so for conducting an amplifier’s output to the speakers.

And if you do believe that a low amplitude audio signal with a (barely) 20khz bandwidth is more complex than a signal that needs to account for relativistic dilation - then I am afraid there is nothing more I can say


PS: I am usually quite open to retest for possible prejudices.. Just this morning, I ordered a Crown XLS2502 on the basis of arguments for it although I honestly don’t even think I need one.... but I do want to try it out just to see why it is so well regarded
 

jls001

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That’s easy to define - you do not want the wire to do anything... A rms voltage of 3.744461342 V at 0.00700000346461 s at start of playback on the amp terminal should read exactly that on the speaker terminals .
If superconducting wires were available - they would be the answer - period
but since they aren’t , you want the speaker cable to be the closest possible approximation to that.



i will go back to my analogy (although it’s a direct parallel and not really an analogy)

if a well designed wire that is true to specifications can conduct an electrical signal to the infinitesimal degree of accuracy so as to measure the quantum movement of a sub atomic particle

OR is precise enough to account for timing differences so small while triangulating a gps signal that the calculations go beyond classical mechanics (And is able to do so on any cheap phone...)

AND had that not been the case, a commercial airliner would end up reaching 20 miles East or West from the runway based on what brand of cables was chose for the signalling harness for that production run

So If the above is true then a far less precise wire can do so for conducting an amplifier’s output to the speakers.

And if you do believe that a low amplitude audio signal with a (barely) 20khz bandwidth is more complex than a signal that needs to account for relativistic dilation - then I am afraid there is nothing more I can say


PS: I am usually quite open to retest for possible prejudices.. Just this morning, I ordered a Crown XLS2502 on the basis of arguments for it although I honestly don’t even think I need one.... but I do want to try it out just to see why it is so well regarded

You're overthinking :)

All the cables discussed here are very nice cables. You could try them and hear them for yourself.
 

superczar

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You're overthinking :)

All the cables discussed here are very nice cables. You could try them and hear them for yourself.
Actually I did mention upfront that exploring the effects of wire introduced coloration/ tweaks is a perfectly valid pursuit :)
In a way, It’s just another aspect of this hobby like any other tweaks we try out..

The rest of the overthinking is only applicable if the primary intent of the user is to leave the signal as close to unaltered
 
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