Cartridge Tonearm Compliance Question

terrible

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I am in the process of deciding between Hana Umami Red, Lyra Kleos and Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua for SME 309 tonearm. I was trying to understand and calculate compliance on this link http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html

Can someone please tell me what 'Fastener Mass' is? I cannot find that in any of the cart or tonearm specifications.
 

arj

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I am in the process of deciding between Hana Umami Red, Lyra Kleos and Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua for SME 309 tonearm. I was trying to understand and calculate compliance on this link http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html

Can someone please tell me what 'Fastener Mass' is? I cannot find that in any of the cart or tonearm specifications.
I assume its the mass of the screw/nut or any additional weight like washers used. you can keep it at .5gms as it does not contribute much to the resonant frequency.

I assume you are taking the dynamic compliance at 10hz . Japanese carts usually give their compliance at 100hz intstead of 10 and hence cannot be compared as is. I believe you need to multiply it by 2 and US carts values are static and need to be halved. !!
 

terrible

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I assume its the mass of the screw/nut or any additional weight like washers used. you can keep it at .5gms as it does not contribute much to the resonant frequency.

I assume you are taking the dynamic compliance at 10hz . Japanese carts usually give their compliance at 100hz intstead of 10 and hence cannot be compared as is. I believe you need to multiply it by 2 and US carts values are static and need to be halved. !!
Wow... this suddenly gets bit much for me. I'll get back with the results and maybe you can help me?
 

jls001

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A quick calculation for Umami Red assuming dynamic compliance of 16 x 10—⁶ at 10 Hz is 8.79 Hz. This is in the 7-12 Hz range, though slightly outside the tighter 9-11 Hz range. I think it boils down to the rather low 9.5 gram effective mass of the arm.
 

terrible

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A quick calculation for Umami Red assuming dynamic compliance of 16 x 10—⁶ at 10 Hz is 8.79 Hz. This is in the 7-12 Hz range, though slightly outside the tighter 9-11 Hz range. I think it boils down to the rather low 9.5 gram effective mass of the arm.
Do you think the Dynavector or Lyra might be a better fit?
 

terrible

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These are the measurements I am getting. This clearly shows Lyra as the more compliant one. Please do your view.
 

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jls001

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These are the measurements I am getting. This clearly shows Lyra as the more compliant one. Please do your view.
Lyra Kleos seems to be 12x10—6 at 100 Hz. Going by Umami Red spec (10x10—6 at 100 Hz and 16x10—6 at 10 Hz) the Kleos ought to be about 19-ish when multiplied by a factor of 1.6 (I've read various conversion factors of 1.5 to even 2). You could try recalculating with 1.6.

The freq is not mentioned for Dynavector.
 

terrible

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Lyra Kleos seems to be 12x10—6 at 100 Hz. Going by Umami Red spec (10x10—6 at 100 Hz and 16x10—6 at 10 Hz) the Kleos ought to be about 19-ish when multiplied by a factor of 1.6 (I've read various conversion factors of 1.5 to even 2). You could try recalculating with 1.6.

The freq is not mentioned for Dynavector.

Dynavector Specs:
  • Output: 0.25mV ( at 1KHz, 5cm/sec)
  • Frequency response: 20-50,000Hz 20-20,000Hz ± 1dB
  • Channel balance: 1dB ( at 1KHz)
  • Channel separation: 30dB ( at 1KHz)
  • Impedance: R=4 ohms, L=10 microH
  • Compliance: 10 x 10-6 cm/dyne
  • Stylus: Line contact PF
  • Cantilever: 0.3mm diameter solid boron
  • Coils: Copper wire
  • Head Frame: Titanium
  • Weight: 8.8 grams
  • Tracking force: 1.8 - 2.2 grams

To be honest these calculations are a little beyond me, so I used the VinylEngine kind of calculator which shows Kleos TRF @10.6 Hz. This falls best between 9-11 Hz.

On Hana, if you take 16x10 at 10 Hz, and mass of 10.5 g, then according to the link below compliance falls at 9Hz. https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=9.5&submit=Submit
 

jls001

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To be honest these calculations are a little beyond me, so I used the VinylEngine kind of calculator which shows Kleos TRF @10.6 Hz. This falls best between 9-11 Hz.
It looks like all your cartridge choices will fall in 8 to 12 Hz resonance range so you should be safe. I'm assuming that you don't use speakers that go deep down to 20 Hz or thereabout.

I think the more important parameter to worry about is correct cartridge-tonearm setup.
 

terrible

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I'm assuming that you don't use speakers that go deep down to 20 Hz or thereabout.

I think the more important parameter to worry about is correct cartridge-tonearm setup.
The Spendor 9.2 response is 27 Hz to 25 kHz.

Yes I have learnt a bit of setting up on my Clearaudio Concept which is actually quite tough and then there's the SME guys who will set it up for me.
 

arj

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As mentioned by Joshua, tonearm compliance seems ok for all 3. You should take the sound signature and the Cartridge/Phono match more seriously now than a more exact match for compliance as this is a very approximate factor anyway. as long as you are in the range you are fine, Although if you do not get it in the range it can be horrible !

Whats the phono you are planning to use ? the loading and gain on that may be important as well.

Dyna : .25Mv and 4Ohms
Lyra : .5mv and 5.4 ohms
Hana: .4 mv and 6 ohms

Dyna may need a little more gain while Lyra and Hana are very similar and any 60dB phono might be enough and I believe all 3 would do with a 100-400Ohm loading
 

terrible

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As mentioned by Joshua, tonearm compliance seems ok for all 3. You should take the sound signature and the Cartridge/Phono match more seriously now than a more exact match for compliance as this is a very approximate factor anyway. as long as you are in the range you are fine, Although if you do not get it in the range it can be horrible !

Whats the phono you are planning to use ? the loading and gain on that may be important as well.

Dyna : .25Mv and 4Ohms
Lyra : .5mv and 5.4 ohms
Hana: .4 mv and 6 ohms

Dyna may need a little more gain while Lyra and Hana are very similar and any 60dB phono might be enough and I believe all 3 would do with a 100-400Ohm loading
I have the Boulder 508 phono stage. This loads till100 Ohms only.
 

jls001

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As mentioned by Joshua, tonearm compliance seems ok for all 3. You should take the sound signature and the Cartridge/Phono match more seriously now than a more exact match for compliance as this is a very approximate factor anyway. as long as you are in the range you are fine, Although if you do not get it in the range it can be horrible !

Whats the phono you are planning to use ? the loading and gain on that may be important as well.

Dyna : .25Mv and 4Ohms
Lyra : .5mv and 5.4 ohms
Hana: .4 mv and 6 ohms

Dyna may need a little more gain while Lyra and Hana are very similar and any 60dB phono might be enough and I believe all 3 would do with a 100-400Ohm loading
Yes, it would be interesting to know what you finally choose.

For 0.25 mV output one would need roughly 64 dB of gain in the MC phono preamp. One can experiment with various impedance loading values - if the phono has the facility, starting with the manufacturer recommended impedance loading value which is usually 10x of the coil impedance.
 

terrible

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Yes, it would be interesting to know what you finally choose.
Thank you for your opinions both of you. Now that all three have been green lit, I'll probably choose between Hana and Lyra. Both I think win high praise for their neutrality and clarity, playing out what is? It'll most likely be Hana. Now that it has been green lit too. Before it was Kleos.
 

arj

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yeah 10-20 times internal impedance is the usual recommendation of loading..but again it can be be personal preferences in sound as well.
100Ohms should be good for each of these.
 

terrible

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Yes, it would be interesting to know what you finally choose.
Guess what, I did not go with either the Hana or the Kleos. Someone at Audiogon also suggested The Voice. So I wrote to Soundsmith, about this cart as it was not easily available online. Peter Ledermann wrote back about it and I also managed to find one solitary piece at Absolute Sound which I picked up.
 

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Guess what, I did not go with either the Hana or the Kleos. Someone at Audiogon also suggested The Voice. So I wrote to Soundsmith, about this cart as it was not easily available online. Peter Ledermann wrote back about it and I also managed to find one solitary piece at Absolute Sound which I picked up.
Isnt that an MM cartridge ? Congratulations on the decision

Do you also want to consider a Decca London Jubilee ? Just to add to the confusion :D
 

terrible

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Isnt that an MM cartridge ? Congratulations on the decision

Do you also want to consider a Decca London Jubilee ? Just to add to the confusion :D
Yes it is an MM cart but comes highly recommended. I was told by somebody on Audiogon, who was told this by Ledermann "The Voice is a high output Sussurro. Peter Ledermann told me the only reason it costs less is the market. People who buy high output cartridges are not prepared to spend as much as MC buyers. Peter insists that is the only reason. "

In his response to my email, he spoke very highly of The Voice. Fortunately the confusion is over now as I did manage to lay my hands on one.
 
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