CD Player - for Usher/Denon setup

[venkatcr]

Hi folks
What are your experiences with an entry level 400-500$ CD player like Marantz or Denon or Cambridge audio used as a transport with a higher end 1500-2000$ DAC like Benchmark DAC2 or line magnetic 502CA?
How would it campare with a stand alone exposure,rega, or higher end marantz CD player?
cheers

You should look for a bare transport that sends digital out, and a mate it to a good DAC. At the end of the day, such combination may be more expensive than a good CD player with it's own DAC. You can also look for a CD player with digital out. I think Marantz and a few other high ends have digital out.

One of easiest and cheapest option is to build a small PC with a CD/DVD player, plonk a good sound card, and connect it to the DAC. The CD/DVD players are inexpensive and can simply be replaced every year. They cost less than $50. Modern PC MB designs and cabinets are available that are small and can be fitted into an audio rack. Of course, you have deal with hardware and software combination, a screen, keyboard and all that. Simple remotes are available that will allow you to just play a number or an album.

This way you have both the worlds - a decent CD player, and a multi-format audio player. This will allow you to enter the world of high resolutions and DSD. Tomorrow when Blu-ray takes on the avatar of being an audio player, just replace the drive and you are ready.

As someone said, optical drives have limited life. There is only so much you can do with it. The difference between a 100$ player and a $10,000 player is not in the drive itself, but in the post extraction electronics. Most manufacturers avoid playing around with the design of the drive itself (the drive hardware and algorithm has matured a long time ago), but focus on DAC, pre-amplification, filtering and other stuff once the data is read.

No one can come close to EAC in terms of just extraction. If EAC says 100% error free, that is THE best output you can get. No one can better that. And, EAC can do that with 100s of drives with compensatory algorithms and databases that they have built. From that point onwards, everything is DAC and amplification.

As I have been saying for a long time, in the digital domain, there is only so much you can do with the extraction process per se. There will be very little difference between a decent 100$ and a 5,000$ in the extraction process itself in terms of raw data output. It is what you do with the data that matters. And that is where the Ayons and Marantzs, Naims and other excel - in the post extraction process.

Cheers

 

[prem]

Yogibear, that's called a cd transport

 

[prem]

Yes. Every CD player will have a built in dac. You can either buy a CD player or a transport and a dac separately

 

[himadri]

You should look for a bare transport that sends digital out, and a mate it to a good DAC. At the end of the day, such combination may be more expensive than a good CD player with it's own DAC. You can also look for a CD player with digital out. I think Marantz and a few other high ends have digital out.

One of easiest and cheapest option is to build a small PC with a CD/DVD player, plonk a good sound card, and connect it to the DAC. The CD/DVD players are inexpensive and can simply be replaced every year. They cost less than $50. Modern PC MB designs and cabinets are available that are small and can be fitted into an audio rack. Of course, you have deal with hardware and software combination, a screen, keyboard and all that. Simple remotes are available that will allow you to just play a number or an album.

This way you have both the worlds - a decent CD player, and a multi-format audio player. This will allow you to enter the world of high resolutions and DSD. Tomorrow when Blu-ray takes on the avatar of being an audio player, just replace the drive and you are ready.

As someone said, optical drives have limited life. There is only so much you can do with it. The difference between a 100$ player and a $10,000 player is not in the drive itself, but in the post extraction electronics. Most manufacturers avoid playing around with the design of the drive itself (the drive hardware and algorithm has matured a long time ago), but focus on DAC, pre-amplification, filtering and other stuff once the data is read.

No one can come close to EAC in terms of just extraction. If EAC says 100% error free, that is THE best output you can get. No one can better that. And, EAC can do that with 100s of drives with compensatory algorithms and databases that they have built. From that point onwards, everything is DAC and amplification.

As I have been saying for a long time, in the digital domain, there is only so much you can do with the extraction process per se. There will be very little difference between a decent 100$ and a 5,000$ in the extraction process itself in terms of raw data output. It is what you do with the data that matters. And that is where the Ayons and Marantzs, Naims and other excel - in the post extraction process.

Cheers

Thanks Venkat.
This means that transports are generally standardised and CD players of all kinds use the commercially available sony/sanyo/phillips transports with similar extraction systems but vary largely in post extraction systems.Any suggestions for reasonably priced standalone transports? The only one I saw was the musical fidelity transport, but it costs 1000$.The AP transport is also similarly priced but is not available anymore.

The entry level marantz and denon players are cheaper (around 500$) and have optical/coaxial digital outs so can be used as relatively cheap transports .However their use would be limited to the redbook or MP3 format only. Would they do justice to a 1500-2000$ standalone dac?

A still cheaper option would be to build a PC based transport with an added advantage of replacing the drives as per the requirement of higher resolution formats.

Anyone using either of the above with a 1500-2000$ DAC?
cheers

 

[asliarun]

I have started seeing more and more DACs supporting the i2s interface. Especially over HDMI. Since i2s is the internal interface used in CD players, it is supposed to be superior as an external interface too, especially for transport plus external DAC type of setups. It requires less interconversion and has lower jitter. Hence much better than spdif.

I believe PS Audio pioneered i2s over HDMI and now, I also see Audio GD Reference DAC and others support this.

 

[venkatcr]

Thanks Venkat.

Sony makes good CD players, so maybe you can audition some and see. Somethings like ES Series SACD Player with HDMI - SCDXA5400ES Review | Sony Store U.S. - Sony US may fit your requirements well. Only issue is that this may not be available new. In the affordable range, I think Marantz may be the best bet. Something like the SA-14S1 will give your good sound and the capability to handle Redbook and SACD.

Unfortunately today, unless you are ready to throw some serious money, CD Player options are limited. It is a shrinking market.

The entry level marantz and denon players are cheaper (around 500$) and have optical/coaxial digital outs so can be used as relatively cheap transports .However their use would be limited to the redbook or MP3 format only. Would they do justice to a 1500-2000$ standalone dac?

The CD6005 can play CD, CD-R/RW(CD-DA/MP3/WMA, AAC), USB: MP3/WMA/WAV/AAC/iPod/iPhone/iPad, and has two digital outs. I think that mated to a good external DAC will give you very decent sound.

 

[asliarun]

I just read that mating a CD transport with a DAC sometimes have clocking mismatch which needs to be taken care of.

The i2s interface has separate channels for clock and data unlike other digital interfaces where the DAC has to derive or guess the clock from the digital spdif data bitstream.

 

[himadri]

Unfortunately today, unless you are ready to throw some serious money, CD Player options are limited. It is a shrinking market.

Thats what I am also realising.1500$ or so gets you either a good CD player or a better standalone DAC , but not both under one chasis.You may have to plonk in another 1000$ to get that, especially if you are looking to include digital inputs also.
Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

Did a bit of surfing and came up with three probable brands for your CD Player at the price range you are talking about.

Cyrus
Marantz
Roksan

Cyrus redesigned their transport and built one for themselves. They have a slot loading system that I don't like too much. It always gives me the feeling that I am going to lose my CD, and it is never going to come out. This is more psychological.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

This is an interesting product - a high resolution CD player and a Network player combined in one with an inbuilt DAC.

C-N7050 | ONKYO Asia and Oceania Website

 

[mpw]

Be careful of voltage compatibility

 

[jls001]

"CD player with DAC" in the current context means the CD player can accept digital audio from external source(s) and do the digital to analog conversion, and output analog audio.

All CD players do have a DAC inside but they accept only the output of the CD player's transport (and not from external digital audio source), and converts the bits from the CD transport mechanism into analog. So it will have just analog audio output. If it does have an S/PDIF output as an additional feature, it means that the CD player can also be used as a CD transport whose output bypasses the internal DAC, and the S/PDIF or I2S digital output (as the case may be) must be given to an external DAC for further processing.

 

[jls001]

Has anyone posted his DIY or has anyone did it this way, PC with CD/DVD transport with sound card and then mated to DAC?

Can it be done by using a laptop, buying a nice CD/DVD external transport and an external DAC?

Would like to know the specifics. Thanks.

The easier option now is to use an USB-capable DAC. One can then use even a laptop as source.

If one wants to use a sound card, one needs a PC as sound cards are usually PCI/PCIe/etc cards to be installed inside the PC cabinet. We are ignoring external sound cards for the moment. This was the only option available earlier, say even two years ago, as USB implementation was very new and at best buggy, but constantly improving. Perhaps the only people who got USB audio right in those early days of USB were dCS Ltd with their Ring DAC topology, but they were truly high-end devices costing tons of money, and needed dedicated clock from the same OEM to work best. This is no longer true as USB DACs have improved tremendously. If one uses a sound card, the digital outputs are usually coaxial S/PDIF or optical TOSLINK. Higher end ones may have AES/EBU. So one needs a DAC with such interfaces. Also, good sound cards cost a lot. For example an RME 9632 will set you back by about Rs 30,000/-. If one wants the RME AES32 card, double that amount.

Also, one distinction to be made here: when using PC as source, it is usually used to play audio files from a media player application (e.g. foobar, JRiver, JPlay, etc) running on the PC, FROM the PC's hard disk, or perhaps a networked storage connected to that PC. The CD/DVD drive of the PC is not used for playing a CD.

If one wants a transport for a physical CD, a CD transport or CD player with digital out, or a DVD player with digital out can be used.

 

[himadri]

MY NAD CDP died and as "Necessity is mother of invention", so just resurrected/serviced my 3 head sendust/ferrite vintage Sony cassette deck and surprisingly it sounds as good my friends LPs !

Enjoying my 30 years old cassette collection.

Not owning a cassette player anymore,Recently gifted my 600 odd cassettes to my friend , who was playing them on a Tascam cassette deck through a high end all Usher set up and WAS TAKEN ABACK. Resolution nowhere, but tonality,warmth ,coherence,and fatigue free microdynamics notwithstanding a constricted soundstage.
A nice bridge between vinyl and digital. DONT WRITE IT OFF.
cheers

 

[himadri]

The easier option now is to use an USB-capable DAC. One can then use even a laptop as source.

If one wants to use a sound card, one needs a PC as sound cards are usually PCI/PCIe/etc cards to be installed inside the PC cabinet. We are ignoring external sound cards for the moment. This was the only option available earlier, say even two years ago, as USB implementation was very new and at best buggy, but constantly improving. Perhaps the only people who got USB audio right in those early days of USB were dCS Ltd with their Ring DAC topology, but they were truly high-end devices costing tons of money, and needed dedicated clock from the same OEM to work best. This is no longer true as USB DACs have improved tremendously. If one uses a sound card, the digital outputs are usually coaxial S/PDIF or optical TOSLINK. Higher end ones may have AES/EBU. So one needs a DAC with such interfaces. Also, good sound cards cost a lot. For example an RME 9632 will set you back by about Rs 30,000/-. If one wants the RME AES32 card, double that amount.

Also, one distinction to be made here: when using PC as source, it is usually used to play audio files from a media player application (e.g. foobar, JRiver, JPlay, etc) running on the PC, FROM the PC's hard disk, or perhaps a networked storage connected to that PC. The CD/DVD drive of the PC is not used for playing a CD.

If one wants a transport for a physical CD, a CD transport or CD player with digital out, or a DVD player with digital out can be used.

Thanks JLS
Looks like:
PC with CD drive + external DAC vs separate transport + external DAC are not so divergent in costs after all.
Integral transport+ DAC may be the cheapest and best matched sonically but may regularly need transport replacement after every few years which may be a real hassle.This has to be weighed against a less sonically matched but more flexible option of external transport+DAC. Im looking seriously at Line magnetic 502CA DAC or the Benchmark DAC2 + denon or marantz entry level CD player as transport. Any views ?
cheers

 

[himadri]

Himadri,

I would really like to listen to all the tracks on my cassettes like Kevin Ayers, Marianne Faithful, Tom Petty, Grace Jones, Billy Joel, Linda Ronstadt, Jackson Browne and many many more Albums/singers to list, on Audio CDs, BUT man, CDs for these all albums/singers ARE EXPENSIVE !

But the cassettes sound quite warm though some less open than they should.

Well I wouldn't really think so, considering that we paid almost a similar proportion (probably higher) out of our erstwhile income levels.
cheers

 

[venkatcr]

PC with CD drive + external DAC vs separate transport + external DAC are not so divergent in costs after all.

Maybe so, but you have the ultimate luxury of being up to date in terms of having the capacity to play all formats, and even listen to Internet music.

Though JLS has recommended some really nice sound cards, one can also look at Asus Essence STX. This has been recommended by ComputerAudiophile who have also recommended Lynx and RME Hammerfall cards.

Im looking seriously at Line magnetic 502CA DAC or the Benchmark DAC2 + denon or marantz entry level CD player as transport. Any views ?
cheers

Benchmark DAC is an excellent choice, as are Marantz and Denon CD Players. You should also look at Parasound DAC. You can also consider DACs from Bel Canto, Peachtree Audio, Wavelength Audio. I am just going by those recommended by ComputerAudiophile.com.

The easiest thing to do is to create a spreadsheet, list DACs interest you, their features and prices, and start cutting out those you do not need. That way you can whittle down to a few for audition and purchase.

Cheers

 

[reignofchaos]

Thanks JLS
Looks like:
PC with CD drive + external DAC vs separate transport + external DAC are not so divergent in costs after all.
Integral transport+ DAC may be the cheapest and best matched sonically but may regularly need transport replacement after every few years which may be a real hassle.This has to be weighed against a less sonically matched but more flexible option of external transport+DAC. Im looking seriously at Line magnetic 502CA DAC or the Benchmark DAC2 + denon or marantz entry level CD player as transport. Any views ?
cheers

A good transport is equally important. Do not skimp on it. I noticed a gigantic difference between an ayon CD player and a dedicated CD transport that I use now.

 

[rikhav]

Thanks JLS
Looks like:
PC with CD drive + external DAC vs separate transport + external DAC are not so divergent in costs after all.
Integral transport+ DAC may be the cheapest and best matched sonically but may regularly need transport replacement after every few years which may be a real hassle.This has to be weighed against a less sonically matched but more flexible option of external transport+DAC. Im looking seriously at Line magnetic 502CA DAC or the Benchmark DAC2 + denon or marantz entry level CD player as transport. Any views ?
cheers

Hi Himadri
Also do read about Schiit Gungir. I dont have any pesonal experience with the DAC so i cant write about its merits or SQ (FM Dheerajin has one)

The best part about the DAC is that its modular

You can USB later on or even the new version of USB part when released later on

Same for the main DAC board, can be upgraded separtealy whenever a new version is released

This cannot be the sole point to pick up a dac, SQ comes first. So please do read about the said dac as well

 

[prem]

Hi Himadri

You can add Metrum Hex to the DAC list.

Why are you so keen on having a transport? Why not rip the cds you have and move to computer audio?

As ROC mentioned, if you still want a conventional cd transport, go for a good one. AP is a decent one. Some of the older 1990 Sony, JVC and Pioneer top of the line models are also decent.