DAC around INR 100k

[ranjeetrain]

Ranjeet
you can take my post with a pinch of salt but

The ayon CS-2s has a very very good DAC section, do not rule it out just because its an all in one unit. You should talk to Sidvee regarding how he fares it compared to other DACs he has heard
The DAC also has controls to provide you gain matching (high and low), XLR or RCA and can take USB and coax. There is also a digital vol control for finer gain adjustment should you need it

cheers

No Sridhar, no need of the disclaimer. I always welcome inputs from all quarters. At least know I know the CDP also doubles as a DAC a good one at that. Else someone like Sid wouldn't have bought it in first place. I have an option in the neighborhood now, which is a good news.

That is correct if you are comparing it mrp. The Ayon is 3.4L m.r.p.
The transport cost is all but removed from the mrp for the price what sidvee is selling. Just FYI.

You have a point. But at the same time, if I end up with a good DAC around 2 lacs in preowned market, I would pay much less. And any money saved can be put in the speakers. And of course cables!

 

[BLASTO]

You have a point. But at the same time, if I end up with a good DAC around 2 lacs in preowned market, I would pay much less. And any money saved can be put in the speakers. And of course cables!

Ya I see your point.
But the counter argument is, it can replace your existing pre amp which you can now sell and buy speakers and cables and double up as a CDP for the one off CD listening.

I am not pushing anything, just putting forward pros and cons.

Thx.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Ya I see your point.
But the counter argument is, it can replace your existing pre amp which you can now sell and buy speakers and cables and double up as a CDP for the one off CD listening.

I am not pushing anything, just putting forward pros and cons.

Thx.

I am not in a need to invest in a pre as of now. Besides at that level no one will use the pre functionality of DAC/CDP. Do you know if Sid uses the pre of the CDP?

 

[odyssey]

The pre is good, not great. Sid doesnt use it since he has a $6K Lamm. The pre is useful only if you have a single source and as i mentioned before, there are enough adjustments to enable matching it to the amp of your choice.

cheers

 

[serum]

Consider the new Nuforce DACs. Good reports.

 

[sidvee]

Just to clear things up - I will very confidently state that the dac in the Cd2s will probably compare to Dac's in the 2.5 lac range. I just recently compared it to a DAC in that range and I preferred the Cd2s - the tube magic makes it different. Also when used as a CD player the Cd2s is also just superb. The preamp is also very good, and if I did not have my Lamm, I would use it without any issues. BTW the Ayon Skylla II DAC I am considering for upgrade, has an analog vol. control/preamp. and some users in other forums have compared that to the Audio Research Reference 3 preamp ($10k retail), and have come away preferring the Ayon, so Ayon does know how to incorporate a good preamp. All this being said, why am I selling?, just to experience what is above the 4 lac barrier in digital. I know it will be diminishing returns, but that is what high end is about. Anyways Ranjeet, do let me know if you are interested and we can work something out. If not, no issues, there are some great products out there in the 1-1.5 lac range as well, I am sure you will find something suitable.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[ranjeetrain]

Thanks Sid. I am sure if you didn't find it good, you wouldn't have bought it.

Manav has a W4S D2 and an FM recently got a WEISS 202U in Mumbai. If all these DACs were in one city, it would have been a great opportunity to hear them next to each other in a quick succession. Unfortunately things are there, but far apart.

When I was in Hong Kong a few days ago, due to various reasons a demo of Weiss could not be possible. The Weiss 202 has come very high on my list now, as I am getting a very good deal on it right now.

Since there are a number of very good options that I have, the decision will have to be made after due diligence. As it is I get barely a few weeks to enjoy my setup per year, so there is very less scope of me to experiment.

But, I will try to come to Hyd to have a first hand experience. Who knows if I like it, I could just pick it

 

[sidvee]

But, I will try to come to Hyd to have a first hand experience. Who knows if I like it, I could just pick it

You are welcome anytime.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[SatMumbai]

But, I will try to come to Hyd to have a first hand experience. Who knows if I like it, I could just pick it

I would like to share a bit of experience here. After a bit longer journey in the world of HiFi, I used to have the Classe SSP-800 and soo loved the two channel sound (used as DAC & Pre-amp) that I decided to buy the Classe CP-800 after a demo in an unfamiliar environment (read as speakers and room acoustics)

However to my surprise, SSP-800 sounded better to my ears that CP-800 (though CP-800 being a newer music only source)

It proved me one thing - after a point of price, most of the products out there are technically correct but the way they are tuned is purely personal choice (This is no new wisdom but I am just putting it out on the table)

Also, at the same time I realised that I am able to see a lot more benefit if I am able to divert my funds to the speakers where the actual magic happens (Electrical to acoustics)

Now-a-days my focus is to get the source to fit my needs (currently I need HDMI input, bass management and decent DACs)

If I am not having the above needs, I would be happy with any reasonable DAC out there and not aim for the last few miles in the DAC / source but use the extra funds in speakers.

Ideally, if I have space and funds, I would run the same source & amplification into two different sets of speakers to suit the mood !

I know that this is not the topic but my point is that the diminishing returns is even more apparent at Source / DAC than else where in the sound chain and so focus around the initial set budget might be more beneficiary!

 

[ranjeetrain]

Sat, you made some very valid points.

"after a point of price, most of the products out there are technically correct but the way they are tuned is purely personal choice" -- there is no better truth out there. Its only a matter of personal taste of the consumer, technical philosophy of designers and branding philosophy or marketeers that high end audio market exists. I don't see what a Gryphon Coloseum amp would do that a USD 20K amp can't. It ultimately boils down to the above fundamentals.

"I am able to see a lot more benefit if I am able to divert my funds to the speakers where the actual magic happens" -- again, very true. My own signature is based on this philosophy. If there is any place an improvement can be heard most easily in any system, it is the speakers. That's the reason I have allocated twice as much as the source for speakers. And that is just the beginning. I might actually end up spending beyond the budget on speakers. But I would really like to keep the budget for DAC under control.

"Ideally, if I have space and funds, I would run the same source & amplification into two different sets of speakers to suit the mood !" -- I am already doing so, bro. I have no less than half a dozen complete systems. I use any of them based entirely on my mood and/or availability. With the right music the system becomes less important. Reflecting back at it, I consider myself lucky, music is still more important to me than the equipment.

 

[BLASTO]

Sat, you made some very valid points.

"after a point of price, most of the products out there are technically correct but the way they are tuned is purely personal choice" -- there is no better truth out there. Its only a matter of personal taste of the consumer, technical philosophy of designers and branding philosophy or marketeers that high end audio market exists. I don't see what a Gryphon Coloseum amp would do that a USD 20K amp can't. It ultimately boils down to the above fundamentals.

"I am able to see a lot more benefit if I am able to divert my funds to the speakers where the actual magic happens" -- again, very true. My own signature is based on this philosophy. If there is any place an improvement can be heard most easily in any system, it is the speakers. That's the reason I have allocated twice as much as the source for speakers. And that is just the beginning. I might actually end up spending beyond the budget on speakers. But I would really like to keep the budget for DAC under control.

"Ideally, if I have space and funds, I would run the same source & amplification into two different sets of speakers to suit the mood !" -- I am already doing so, bro. I have no less than half a dozen complete systems. I use any of them based entirely on my mood and/or availability. With the right music the system becomes less important. Reflecting back at it, I consider myself lucky, music is still more important to me than the equipment.

The most accurate system is also not the most musical. Otherwise people will be building systems that the musicians use to make music. It is always personal choice. That is where a lot of things like cables tone comes in.

 

[ranjeetrain]

The most accurate system is also not the most musical. Otherwise people will be building systems that the musicians use to make music. It is always personal choice. That is where a lot of things like cables tone comes in.

I can't understand the correlation or what really you are implying.

 

[square_wave]

Pretty much agree with some points.

Price increase does not necessarily mean higher quality A-L-W-A-Y-S .

The flip side is that there is higher quality to be had at higher price points if one knows exactly what one is doing.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hey!if you can wait you can audition the Belcanto's during the gurgaon meet , it's most likely to be there.
All the best.
Cheers

Yeah right, got a taste of Bel Canto at the meet. But it is just not possible to take that as an audition. The product looked solidly made though.

Consider the new Nuforce DACs. Good reports.

I have owned couple of Nuforce and I am a fan of their price-performance ratio.

Is there any specific models you can suggest?

Price increase does not necessarily mean higher quality A-L-W-A-Y-S .

The flip side is that there is higher quality to be had at higher price points if one knows exactly what one is doing.

Totally agreeable! With price some improvement can definitely be expected. Whether or not that improvement will be apparent in a system/setup is a matter of experimentation. As they say, the proof of pudding...

Everyone seems to agree, it is a matter of personal choice. I want to add, it is also a matter of how sophisticated the entire chain is. I don't think I would be a wise man (or anyone else would be) if I feed a Rs 4 lac CDP into a 1 lac rs speakers. This is where decision making comes into picture.

With that said, I am giving it a fresh look from scratch. Here I go again. Here is what this set up is going to be like. Let's take a fresh look at it again.

-- Transport - Currently a number of Windows laptops. I have a desktop as a standby (which I will use in case I need to use SPDIF). If I end up with a FireWire DAC, I will buy a MacMini and use it in a headless configuration.

-- Conversion - Unknown and the subject of discussion here. I do want to keep myself focused on the road-map I have in my mind, rather than keep changing mind. It is certain that I want a DAC, nothing less nothing more. The only extra functionality I might accept is if it has variable/attenuate-able output.

-- Amplification - Odyssey Stratos Extreme or Accuphase E-350.

-- Speakers - Hunt is on. My net is really wide. I may end up catching a prawn or end up with a baby shark. I am really open on this and would look at any and every option with interest and an open mind. I want the best I can afford without guilt right now.

Hope this gives everyone more clarity in to my thought process

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If I end up with a FireWire DAC, I will buy a MacMini and use it in a headless configuration.

Pictures is as close as I've been, but I can see it is a neat little box, probably a whole heap neater than a desktop PC, but Firewire is still alive, and even available as a motherboard builtin. My Gigabyte board has it ---and indeed I use it--- and it is even the TI chip that some interfaces are fussy about wanting to talk to. Wouldn't building a PC, rather than buying a Mac, leave you with balance to invest in other components?

On the other hand, if you are entering the Mac world, there is one Mac-specific interface company you might want to look at, which I'll edit in when I find the right brain cell in a few minutes

...Apogee

 

[ranjeetrain]

Wouldn't building a PC, rather than buying a Mac, leave you with balance to invest in other components?

On the other hand, if you are entering the Mac world, there is one Mac-specific interface company you might want to look at, which I'll edit in when I find the right brain cell in a few minutes

...Apogee

All my desktop systems so far have been DIY. Last couple years I only bought laptops. Apparently laptop DIY is harder. MacMini clone DIY will be as hard I guess. Small foot-print is a lucrative proportion. Imagine your entire digital-transport containing your entire music library is the size of Bhagwad Gita copy. I like the sound of that compactness, visual cleanliness and aesthetic appeal.

That brings me to an entirely new question. A visually neat and clean system works better for me. For some reasons I can't explain, they give me a better sound image. Is it psychological. And is it just me? Or do other people also are able to enjoy simple, uncluttered, non-complicated systems more?

Oh, btw, FireWire is not my automatic choice. I will take that route if the DAC I pickup only has FireWire.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Well, it must be psychological ...but of course it is not just you. I'm very happy with my PC audio --- but it is PC audio. I wouldn't be nearly so happy moving my large tower computer case over to the hifi side of the room, even though it is quite a good-looking box*.

Looks not only sell, they certainly help to keep us happy as well. Actually, I was thinking earlier today: if I like the look of a hifi box, maybe that means I might like the result of the design work on the inside too. Probably not true... books, covers and all that!



*a nice-looking tower case would be a better visual match for a system including hefty mono power amps

 

[SatMumbai]

-- Transport - Currently a number of Windows laptops. I have a desktop as a standby (which I will use in case I need to use SPDIF). If I end up with a FireWire DAC, I will buy a MacMini and use it in a headless configuration.

-- Conversion - Unknown and the subject of discussion here. I do want to keep myself focused on the road-map I have in my mind, rather than keep changing mind. It is certain that I want a DAC, nothing less nothing more. The only extra functionality I might accept is if it has variable/attenuate-able output.
..
-- Speakers - Hunt is on. My net is really wide. I may end up catching a prawn or end up with a baby shark. I am really open on this and would look at any and every option with interest and an open mind. I want the best I can afford without guilt right now.

Hope this gives everyone more clarity in to my thought process

My Vote is for Mac Mini. I have been using one for the past many years. I tried the regular HTPC, desktop, mini PCs but none of them matched Mac Mini with respect to noise levels (Be it fan noise or electric noise). Mac Mini has Digital optical Output as well so any DAC can be connected (be it SPDIF or USB or Firewire)

Regarding the conversion - There is a dedicated group out there who believes that the Digital transport makes a huge difference. So Mac Mini might not be good enough and a proper streamer / player (like Linn DS) is needed about which I am not too sure yet.

DAC - I guess the whole thread has done good recommendations.

Speakers - My current speakers make you listen to the music in a different way altogether. Prem's Rhythm speakers are the best I ever heard!

 

[ranjeetrain]

*a nice-looking tower case would be a better visual match for a system including hefty mono power amps

Haha, that's not a bad idea at all. A couple of shiny powder coated cases, housing a NAS and a digital transport, all of them lined up in an alternate formation with some Gryphon Colloseum amps! All dressed up and ready to seduce! How sweet! No, how sophisticated, would be that "look" !!

My Vote is for Mac Mini. I have been using one for the past many years. I tried the regular HTPC, desktop, mini PCs but none of them matched Mac Mini with respect to noise levels (Be it fan noise or electric noise). Mac Mini has Digital optical Output as well so any DAC can be connected (be it SPDIF or USB or Firewire)

Regarding the conversion - There is a dedicated group out there who believes that the Digital transport makes a huge difference. So Mac Mini might not be good enough and a proper streamer / player (like Linn DS) is needed about which I am not too sure yet.

DAC - I guess the whole thread has done good recommendations.

Speakers - My current speakers make you listen to the music in a different way altogether. Prem's Rhythm speakers are the best I ever heard!

I used to be an iDiot. Than I ditched Mac and turned to windows full time. Now I am considering Mac again. Cosmetics perhaps is a reason too. Or perhaps not. Noiseless operation is yet another advantage. But I hate the lack of software versatility, tweak-ability on Mac. Software wise Windows wins hands down. Hardware wise Mac wins heads down. Decisions! Decisions!!

Testimonials like those make you wish you also heard that system. Listening to Prem's system goes on my wish list. Seems like I should head to Mumbai for a day or two and spend some time listening to some set ups.

 

[SatMumbai]

Testimonials like those make you wish you also heard that system. Listening to Prem's system goes on my wish list. Seems like I should head to Mumbai for a day or two and spend some time listening to some set ups.

Though I mentioned about the Mac Mini (and pretty happy with it. I have one of those softwares - Amarra to do bit perfect), my new target is something else.

I recently bought the Synology NAS (213+) and with the new Oppo 105 (supposed to come before end of next week), music will run from NAS to Oppo directly (Ethernet streaming) just to make sure that any noise from a PC / Mac are eliminated as well as removing the digital cable (USB or SPDIF) to the DAC (which will be Oppo in my case). Also, the routers at home are all Powerline supported hence it is all wired Ethernet all across.

As I mentioned earlier, I see / assume merits to have a dedicated Streamer / player with optimised Power supplies and audiophile grade components (if at all it means anything!) to remove any possible doubts at the source side.

YES, Prem's set up is truly out of the world. All analog, with Valve magic but the speakers are the truly impressive. They are placed half way in the room and the soundstage they throw is awesome. Width of the soundstage is done nicely by many speakers (after a price) but the depth of the soundstage is pure amazing! I am very lucky to hear that and once we are able to get some time, I would like to take my wife to Prem's place at his convenience to make her hear it as well. My wife enjoys the listening part of the hobby (not the discussions we do here) and this is one system which I want her to experience!

Prem - Please do not mind me speaking on behalf of your system but it is that good that I can not forget that magic!

Mumbai trip? I am sure it is worth it. I have recently returned back after 7 years away from Mumbai and so I am not sure what else is offer but it looks like people's individual choices resulted in some more great system around (will be able to tell only after I hear a few)

Now a days I am pretty excited about non box speakers like planars (though not too impressed with Cadence) or the single driver speakers or something else..

Though my set up is quite modest at best, if you have have some spare time at hand, you are welcome to hear the Stradas. I bought the Jolida 1501BRC amp yesterday which I will be setting over the weekend and with Oppo my set up would be complete.