rana_kirti
Active Member
Stan,
Whats the difference between Caiman & Caiman+ ?
Also what is the price to procure either ?
Thanks
Whats the difference between Caiman & Caiman+ ?
Also what is the price to procure either ?
Thanks
DAC - To buy or to not buy(Confused)
- Thread starter abhi_jollyguy
- Start date
The C+ has two optical inputs plus two SPDIF inputs , whilst the Caiman has one USB, one TOSLINK, and two SPDIF. They are the same unit, except that during assembly the USB and TOSLINk are fitted according to the model requirement.
Price delivered to any genuine hifivision member in India is around U$260 to U$280, depending on exchange rate etc.
Price delivered to any genuine hifivision member in India is around U$260 to U$280, depending on exchange rate etc.
abhi_jollyguy
Active Member
Am I really gonna see big improvement on my NAD C 326BBE, PSB Image B6 and WD TV Live if I buy DAC? I am worried on this.
Stan, is that price including shipping and customs duty or exclusive?
even in the inards of the Benchmark can be done in 100$ forget the others
but that is beside the point
i have tried a few sub 300$ dacs in 2 entry level setups including your own dac( in non treated compromised rooms)
im yet to see a large improvemnt ( and in some cases any )
yes im probably deaf
actaully now i do feel sorry for myslef
@unleash
please see the context i have used in
"Compromised room setups with entry level systems"
Using headphones takes the entire room out of the equation(which is my whole point)
but that is beside the point
i have tried a few sub 300$ dacs in 2 entry level setups including your own dac( in non treated compromised rooms)
im yet to see a large improvemnt ( and in some cases any )
yes im probably deaf
actaully now i do feel sorry for myslef
@unleash
please see the context i have used in
"Compromised room setups with entry level systems"
Using headphones takes the entire room out of the equation(which is my whole point)
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unleash_me
Well-Known Member
Agreed, I do see your point
but headphones often help to notice the difference a well designed dac can make (or not) in any chain.
unleash_me
Well-Known Member
No offense mate but imo for your setup, hardly any! Reasons being the ones explained by magma and others. A good DAC can bring out the finer nuances of music but if the medium is not justifying the source, then there is only so much any DAC can do. If possible try to borrow one from anyone nearby and experiment it yourself.
Customs duty? That's down to the buyer, not the seller. The price includes shipping plus relevant paperwork to keep import duties to the absolute minimum.
Maybe you are missing the point of a DAC
. Its purpose is to extract and process the digital info as faithfully as possible with respect to what is actually encoded. If you are looking for acoustical alterations to the signal then a graphic equalizer or tone controls would be a more sensible option.Then they are robbing their customers. Customs duty is payable at the port of entry by the person whose name is on the shipping document as the receiver.
Don't confuse it with value added tax, which is collected by the seller from the buyer at the time of purchase. That tax I do have to collect from every European Union customer, and hand it over every three months to Customs.
rana_kirti
Active Member
Hi Stan,
An important question for you. I've read excellent things about you and your products on a lot of other forums. I guess only you can give a honest answer as you are a well respected Master of your profession.
I don't know what quality of music abhi_jollyguy has.... I guess a whether a DAC is worth it for him will depend on the quality of music he has or maybe not...
Can a DAC improve the sound quality of a low bitrate mp3 song say 128/192/320 kpbs....??
or
Does it only improve the sound quality of CD quality music...?
How important is the source material as far as DAC performance goes...?
Your guidance will be appreciated by all here...
An important question for you. I've read excellent things about you and your products on a lot of other forums. I guess only you can give a honest answer as you are a well respected Master of your profession.
I don't know what quality of music abhi_jollyguy has.... I guess a whether a DAC is worth it for him will depend on the quality of music he has or maybe not...
Can a DAC improve the sound quality of a low bitrate mp3 song say 128/192/320 kpbs....??
or
Does it only improve the sound quality of CD quality music...?
How important is the source material as far as DAC performance goes...?
Your guidance will be appreciated by all here...
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abhi_jollyguy
Active Member
abhi_jollyguy
Active Member
Hi Stan,
An important question for you. I've read excellent things about you and your products on a lot of other forums. I guess only you can give a honest answer as you are a well respected Master of your profession.
I don't know what quality of music the OP has....
Can a DAC improve the sound quality of a low bitrate mp3 song say 128/192/320 kpbs....??
or
Does it only improve the sound quality of CD quality music...?
How important is the source material as far as DAC performance goes...?
Your guidance will be appreciated by all here...
+1
I also want to know this
A DAC can't turn a frog into a prince. What it can do, assuming the design is capable, is to decode and play back more accurately the kind of detail that is frequently lost in today's highly condensed audio circuit board.
Let me explain that bit in more detail:
Many budget CD and media players are designed for compactness. So the copper tracks are very much condensed and run over each other with little regards for sound quality. All kind of noise gets into the audio signal, and a myriad of tricks are used to keep them under control. Unfortunately those controls are more often than not a bunch of filter networks. They can strip the audio signal of the little nuances that make up an emotional recording. Sound stage, depth, etc. suddenly sound flat.
A good DAC is supposed to be well laid out and unwanted noise taken care of without any or too much filtering.
In my TC-7520 based range I have gone as far as to have the audio and USB circuitry separated from the digital circuit. This is to keep the various noises under control without heavy handed filtering.
To get a very clear idea of how much signal is lost in the analogue stage of a DAC I came up with the passive mod on my own DACs. I have seen similar ideas on other DACs as well. One uses an audio transformer. By going passive, you are getting the pure decoded signal from the DAC chip. It's amazing how much more info is in that signal. Until you have heard the audio output directly from a DAC chip, you can only imagine how much info is in a digital track.
It's that kind of detail in the music that the likes of me are trying to extract. Even on a relatively inexpensive system the difference between a heavily filtered and an unfiltered or lightly filtered DAC is clearly audible.
It's even possible to modify most CD and DVD players to produce an unfiltered output. I did it on many of my owns CD players, with amazing results. The cheapest and best was a Denon 1740.
Let me explain that bit in more detail:
Many budget CD and media players are designed for compactness. So the copper tracks are very much condensed and run over each other with little regards for sound quality. All kind of noise gets into the audio signal, and a myriad of tricks are used to keep them under control. Unfortunately those controls are more often than not a bunch of filter networks. They can strip the audio signal of the little nuances that make up an emotional recording. Sound stage, depth, etc. suddenly sound flat.
A good DAC is supposed to be well laid out and unwanted noise taken care of without any or too much filtering.
In my TC-7520 based range I have gone as far as to have the audio and USB circuitry separated from the digital circuit. This is to keep the various noises under control without heavy handed filtering.
To get a very clear idea of how much signal is lost in the analogue stage of a DAC I came up with the passive mod on my own DACs. I have seen similar ideas on other DACs as well. One uses an audio transformer. By going passive, you are getting the pure decoded signal from the DAC chip. It's amazing how much more info is in that signal. Until you have heard the audio output directly from a DAC chip, you can only imagine how much info is in a digital track.
It's that kind of detail in the music that the likes of me are trying to extract. Even on a relatively inexpensive system the difference between a heavily filtered and an unfiltered or lightly filtered DAC is clearly audible.
It's even possible to modify most CD and DVD players to produce an unfiltered output. I did it on many of my owns CD players, with amazing results. The cheapest and best was a Denon 1740.
abhi_jollyguy
Active Member
the best way to know is to do what "unleash me" said
if you can get hold of a dac and try it out yourself in your room and your setup NOTHING like it
What i can advice with surety though is
put a bit more space than the current 4 feet you have between your speakers
if you can put them on stands all the better if not take a granite slab (this tweak i have not tried but has been sugested by others)
having 1.5 feet between the speaker and back wall will help too
Bass traps etc when you know what youre doing
i cant see the rest of your room so i cant advice further
if youre buying a dac the above is more important purley INMO
to fair actaully abhi if you are using a WDTV as source the dac should do "good" in any case
Its only when you compare with a CDP that im not too sure of the extent of "good" ( in this case)
if you can get hold of a dac and try it out yourself in your room and your setup NOTHING like it
What i can advice with surety though is
put a bit more space than the current 4 feet you have between your speakers
if you can put them on stands all the better if not take a granite slab (this tweak i have not tried but has been sugested by others)
having 1.5 feet between the speaker and back wall will help too
Bass traps etc when you know what youre doing
i cant see the rest of your room so i cant advice further
if youre buying a dac the above is more important purley INMO
to fair actaully abhi if you are using a WDTV as source the dac should do "good" in any case
Its only when you compare with a CDP that im not too sure of the extent of "good" ( in this case)
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abhi_jollyguy
Active Member
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Magma, nice summary. Agree with everything you said in this post.
However, in your previous posts, I could not understand why you are emphasizing so much on the importance of room acoustics to someone trying to decide to invest in a DAC or not. In my observation, room acoustics affects speakers mostly and to some extent the rest of the chain. Also, there is no point investing in a DAC just because a huge difference was found while listening using a headphone setup. At the end of the day, it should sound good in the OP's setup where everything else remains the same (room treatment et all), otherwise there is no point. It depends on the entire chain rather than just room acoustics.
On another note, the whole thing about room acoustics, tweaks etc is very subjective and we as an audiophile community are a confused lot
. For Eg, sometimes we say, the speaker stands improves the way the bookshelves sound. After a while, we ask ourselves "do we really want to listen to the speaker or the speaker-stand combo":lol:? Sometimes we call a characteristic sound of a speaker/cable/component as a signature sound - in a positive way and sometimes we term it as coloring - in a negative way based on our state of confusion. I agree with Stan's POV that a well designed DAC irrespective of its price should definitely improve the way a system sounds given that the system has "not so good" electronics. Whether the improvement is worth the $300 spend is the big question? In some systems, the difference may be day and night and the $300 spend may seem less for the improvement that was heard. But in some systems, for example in mine, my Marantz CD63SE was doing an almost equal job when compared to the digital out from Marantz into Caiman, so the $300 spend may not be justified in my rig.
So Abhi, like Stan, Magma, unleash_me and everyone has suggested, the best way to find out if it will improve is to borrow a DAC and try in your rig. Then decide.
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