Difference in power ratings of Marantz Pm7000N (stereo amps) and Avrs???

[argurpreet321]

Hi guys

Need some help. I have a query. I have a KEF Q series setup with Q500 fronts and Q200C center and KEF C1 surrounds. I was using it with a Denon AVR2113 and Wharfedele sub. Recently there was some problem with the power supply of the AVR. Now to simplify my setup, instead of getting it rectified, I have decided to go the 2.1 route for music and getting the Tv sound through an optical cable. My options were Marantz NR1200 and the Marantz PM7000N. Now the first one is a 2 channel receiver rated at 75W per channel and the latter is an integrated stereo amp with a rated power of 60W per channel. Yesterday I auditioned both. I found the NR1200 sound very anaemic compared to my earlier avr which was rated at 95W per channel. But the PM7000N was much better maybe because its an integrated amp. Now it may come as a shock but I have to admit, this was the first time in my life that I heard a proper integrated stereo amp. My question relates to this only. Will the Marantz PM7000N @60W per channel do justice to the KEF Q500 speakers rated at 130W per channel???

The audition was done with the KEF Q550 speakers. We could not raise the volume beyond 60-65 without it getting too loud or harsh. Now despite having done the audition, I am not too clear whether the amp will drive the speakers properly. I think my doubt stems from the fact that I am a complete noob when it comes to stereo amps with almost no exposure. I am not sure why we could not raise the volume beyond that…As per the store guys, its because stereo amp power ratings are different ftom AVR ratings and they have high current. Is it true? If this were true, wouldn’t the speaker ratings have two different kinds of specs ?

OR was it because the amp is underpowered for the speakers?

Also in the case of a stereo amp do the speakers operate at their full capacity db levels while in the case of avrs I was using them at -7 or -8 db levels as per audyssey distance ? Maybe this is why the NR1200 sounded weak despite a higher power rating…

Kindly please enlighten me on the issue and differences between the power ratings of stereo amps and avrs, just so that I don’t make a wrong decision. Right now I am lost in this sea of information online. Also please anyone with hands on experience with the PM7000N and its capabilities to drive a tower speaker?



PS : After this purchase, my KEF Q200C centre and KEF C1 surround speakers would be free for sale. Also available is a DENON avr2113 with a faulty power supply. If anyone is interested kindy Pm me or drop a whatsapp at 9650368800. Thanks

 

[ssf]

While I have not heard the Marantz PM7000N but going through its Specs, it looks like a nice amp. I should have no issues powering the Kef Q500.

Stereo amps assuming that the source is proper, play their best at below 50% of their volume.

Generally speaking, AVR's overrate their power output and stereo amps underrate their power output.

 

[argurpreet321]

Any other views or explanations guys…? I am quite sure the learned members of this forum have an explanation for my very basic query. Please share your thoughts…help me out…

 

[efernand1]

Any other views or explanations guys…? I am quite sure the learned members of this forum have an explanation for my very basic query. Please share your thoughts…help me out…

Hi

Stereo Integrated amps have built in pre amps which give a boost to output levels and hence you get a punchy solid output.

The NR1200 has NO AUDYSSEY setup and you can always download the manual to check if the levels for Left & Right can be adjusted or not.

While most AVRs overrate their power outputs, after Audyssey setup which is conservative, one can always tweak the levels of every speaker to suit his hearing requirements....I am a hard core Marantz user and have been using various models from NR to SR series since 2012. No complaints till date and yes the most demanding speakers sing well. One of our Forum members used Dali Zensor 7 with NR1605.

These links should give you some background

Receiver Power Consumption Rating vs Output Power Is Not Watt You Think!

Ever wonder how your favorite manufacturer rates power consumption on their AV receivers and how it relates to maximum available output power to your speakers? The answer may surprise you so read on.

www.audioholics.com

Let’s Talk Power: Decoding Amplifier Power Ratings for Beginners

Buying a new amplifier or AV receiver can be complicated. If you're confused by all the technical terms, check out this simple guide to amplifier power ratings.

www.the-home-cinema-guide.com

Coming to the speakers you have, if they have a higher sensitivity rate, they are compatible with most amps or avrs even if the output of the amp / avr is low. They will work well.

If I was given a choice to choose between NR1200 and NR1711, I would go ahead with NR1711 as there is audyssey setup and also Manual EQ if you want to tweak further.

You can use all 5 of the speakers and BI Amp the Q500s....effective all 7 channels will be used. (The remaining 2 channels can be added as Bi Amp)..you can add the sub if required.

All now depends on what you want to use...2.1 or 5.1 etc.

This is my two cents based on experience etc. If you are stuck in a Dilemma between NR1200 and N7000 suggest you post the same in the Marantz Owners Thread where you will get more responses / feedback from the users.

Marantz Owner Thread...

Whats the current prices for SR6015 or Sr7015? Heard due to limited stock depending on dealer possible rates would be between 20% to 35% less from listed MRPs. 6015 todays MRP169900 & 7015-264900 -20 to 30% discounts u can expect & it depends on ur bargain skills & availability . Note: there is...

www.hifivision.com

 

[Gecko]

Will the Marantz PM7000N @60W per channel do justice to the KEF Q500 speakers rated at 130W per channel???

Hey, I'm driving my kef q500's with cxa60, a 60wpc integrated. 60wpc is really a good amount of juice for q500 to sing properly. But the q500's shines better with a high current/watts amp. If networking is not important, you can have a look at pm8006. This would squeeze better performance from your speakers compared to pm7000n.

 

[argurpreet321]

Hey, I'm driving my kef q500's with cxa60, a 60wpc integrated. 60wpc is really a good amount of juice for q500 to sing properly. But the q500's shines better with a high current/watts amp. If networking is not important, you can have a look at pm8006. This would squeeze better performance from your speakers compared to pm7000n.

Good to know that 60wpc is sufficient. But I hope I won’t feel the difference coming from my 95wpc avr and will appreciate the sound clarity compared to it considering that I am spending the same amount as SR5015. Also networking and airplay etc is really important. My main source would be airplay and online music. Also getting the Tv and movie sound through optical is very important. Otherwise I would not even consider a stereo amp. It must cater to both music and movies with more emphasis on movies.

 

[argurpreet321]

As far as I know Pm7000Nn is a high current amp. Also as I am new to stereo amps, how low is 60wpc considered in the world of integrated stereo amps?

 

[ssf]

It must cater to both music and movies with more emphasis on movies.

60 watts is more than enough for regular home levels of listening. Most popular stereo integrated amps have around 50 to 70 watts which is quite sufficient unless your speakers have very low sensitivity or you are listening at a very loud volume, in which case more power is required as headroom so that the peaks in the music do not distort.

I have a Marantz 7010 receiver which is rated at 120 watts, 2 channels driven. I also have a Crown XLS 2502 power amp which is 440W per channel. My Quad S2 speakers have a sensitivity of 87 dB. The Kef Q500 too has a sensitivity rating of 87 dB. (The sensitivity rating is more important than the power rating). The crown is an absolute overkill for my speaker and for the volumes at which I listen to.

The 87 dB sensitivity specifies that at 1 watt power, at a distance of 1 meter, the speakers will output 87dB. Every doubling of distance will decrease the output by 6dB.

However, if your only doubt is if a 60w stereo amp can drive the Kef Q500 as well as a 90W AVR, I can confidently say that a 60W stereo amp will drive the speakers as well as or even better than an AVR rated at 90W.

If your emphasis is on movies it is better in my opinion to purchase a decent AV Receiver (Marantz SR 5015 is a good choice) especially since you already have a good center channel, surround and sub.

 

[sandeepmohan]

I would pay less attention to the actual watts being quoted and pay more attention to how the PM7000N can sound with your KEF. Ask the dealer for a home demo (take the amp home). All you need is a few minutes to understand if it sings well with your KEF speakers. The position of your volume know is not an indication of actual performance or capability. If you get the desired output only at the 12am position, its not a bad thing.

AVR quoted power ratings are indeed inflated as most always publish at single channel driven ratings. Throw in 5 speakers and they tank down to something as little as 30 watts per channel, depending on the receiver make and model.

The 130 watts written behind your speaker is the maximum it can take. That is no way means that a 50 watt per channel amplifier cannot drive them. The delivery, design of the amplifier and quality of watts matter more. The sensitivity values of the speaker will also decide how much gain you need to dial in for it to reach your optimum listening levels.

 

[argurpreet321]

60 watts is more than enough for regular home levels of listening. Most popular stereo integrated amps have around 50 to 70 watts which is quite sufficient unless your speakers have very low sensitivity or you are listening at a very loud volume, in which case more power is required as headroom so that the peaks in the music do not distort.

I have a Marantz 7010 receiver which is rated at 120 watts, 2 channels driven. I also have a Crown XLS 2502 power amp which is 440W per channel. My Quad S2 speakers have a sensitivity of 87 dB. The Kef Q500 too has a sensitivity rating of 87 dB. (The sensitivity rating is more important than the power rating). The crown is an absolute overkill for my speaker and for the volumes at which I listen to.

The 87 dB sensitivity specifies that at 1 watt power, at a distance of 1 meter, the speakers will output 87dB. Every doubling of distance will decrease the output by 6dB.

However, if your only doubt is if a 60w stereo amp can drive the Kef Q500 as well as a 90W AVR, I can confidently say that a 60W stereo amp will drive the speakers as well as or even better than an AVR rated at 90W.

If your emphasis is on movies it is better in my opinion to purchase a decent AV Receiver (Marantz SR 5015 is a good choice) especially since you already have a good center channel, surround and sub.

Yes, I noticed that most amps lie in this 60-80w range. This explains why I couldn’t raise the volume beyond 60 at the audition. The amp didyhave sufficient headroom to do that without distorting. I sometimes do like to listen to loud music. Isn’t such a situation dangerous for the speakers: an amp with less headroom?
The emphasis is more on music. I love my surround sound. But being honest, i am now wary of avrs going kaput in a short while with their weak power supplies and hdmi boards to go wrong. The general opinion is that stereos last longer. But haven’t owned one till date

 

[argurpreet321]

I would pay less attention to the actual watts being quoted and pay more attention to how the PM7000N can sound with your KEF. Ask the dealer for a home demo (take the amp home). All you need is a few minutes to understand if it sings well with your KEF speakers. The position of your volume know is not an indication of actual performance or capability. If you get the desired output only at the 12am position, its not a bad thing.

AVR quoted power ratings are indeed inflated as most always publish at single channel driven ratings. Throw in 5 speakers and they tank down to something as little as 30 watts per channel, depending on the receiver make and model.

The 130 watts written behind your speaker is the maximum it can take. That is no way means that a 50 watt per channel amplifier cannot drive them. The delivery, design of the amplifier and quality of watts matter more. The sensitivity values of the speaker will also decide how much gain you need to dial in for it to reach your optimum listening levels.

Home demo may not be possible as its not the norm here in Delhi. The Marantz rating for 5015 of 100w is 2 channel driven. Not sure if the Pm7000n rating of 60w is 60+60 or total of 60w at 2 channel drive.

 

[ssf]

Yes, I noticed that most amps lie in this 60-80w range. This explains why I couldn’t raise the volume beyond 60 at the audition. The amp didyhave sufficient headroom to do that without distorting. I sometimes do like to listen to loud music. Isn’t such a situation dangerous for the speakers: an amp with less headroom?

Yes. Underpowered amps can cause more trouble than amps with more power.

But, in your case, playing loud on the 60 watt stereo amp might be safer than playing loud on a 90 watt AVR in pure direct.

The equation might change in favor of the AVR if crossovers along with a sub is used in stereo mode as most of the lower frequencies that tax amplifiers are now handled by the dedicated sub.

Amp and receiver wattage is usually specified as per channel so it is 60 watts per channel and 90 watts per channel, two channels driven.

Also note that it could be either the amp or the speaker or both distorting. In my case, the Crown will not distort as it has more than enough power but at high levels, my Quad S2's might start to distort.

 

[argurpreet321]

Yes. Underpowered amps can cause more trouble than amps with more power.

But, in your case, playing loud on the 60 watt stereo amp might be safer than playing loud on a 90 watt AVR in pure direct.

The equation might change in favor of the AVR if crossovers along with a sub is used in stereo mode as most of the lower frequencies that tax amplifiers are now handled by the dedicated sub.

Amp and receiver wattage is usually specified as per channel so it is 60 watts per channel and 90 watts per channel, two channels driven.

Also note that it could be either the amp or the speaker or both distorting. In my case, the Crown will not distort as it has more than enough power but at high levels, my Quad S2's might start to distort.

I am going to use my existing sub in the system. In case of PM7000n , it has a sub out but the fronts will also receive the full signal and the sub with receive the frequencies below whatever is set. In my audition, I think the amp was the culprit as it is rated at 60W while the speakers can take power upto 130W.

 

[sandeepmohan]

Home demo may not be possible as its not the norm here in Delhi. The Marantz rating for 5015 of 100w is 2 channel driven. Not sure if the Pm7000n rating of 60w is 60+60 or total of 60w at 2 channel drive.

Well, you need to make that the norm then, or, find another dealer who wants your business. You're talking about an amp costing close to a 100K! Not exactly pocket change. What if it does not pair well? Are you just going to live with it? Talk to the dealer and explain your situation. A dealer who wants your business will let you trial the amplifier. Pro Fx have been doing this for over 20 years so this sort of practice is nothing new.

The specs for the 7000N suggest 60 watts so under stereo it should be 30+30 watts. More the reason you should try it before you put down any money.

Like I mentioned earlier, it isn't necessary for the power rating to come close to the speaker. While your KEF may specify 130 watts, that is the maximum power input it can take.

 

[DB1989]

The specs for the 7000N suggest 60 watts so under stereo it should be 30+30 watts. More the reason you should try it before you put down any money.

60w per channel i.e. 60+60.

 

[argurpreet321]

Well, you need to make that the norm then, or, find another dealer who wants your business. You're talking about an amp costing close to a 100K! Not exactly pocket change. What if it does not pair well? Are you just going to live with it? Talk to the dealer and explain your situation. A dealer who wants your business will let you trial the amplifier. Pro Fx have been doing this for over 20 years so this sort of practice is nothing new.

The specs for the 7000N suggest 60 watts so under stereo it should be 30+30 watts. More the reason you should try it before you put down any money.

Like I mentioned earlier, it isn't necessary for the power rating to come close to the speaker. While your KEF may specify 130 watts, that is the maximum power input it can take.

Yes, I totally understand where you are coming from. I have the same concerns.

 

[argurpreet321]

60w per channel i.e. 60+60.

Yes, I thought so. The reviews also mention the same. Just that on Marantz page it says, just 60w without mentioning per channel.

 

[Aniruddha]

Also please anyone with hands on experience with the PM7000N and its capabilities to drive a tower speaker?

I purchased Marantz PM7000N recently and it drives the Cadence Diva speakers quite easily.

Though i haven't had the time to explore all its features and abilities, the first impression after listening to vinyl is that it definitely is a brilliant amp.

 

[premoddev]

AVRs in most cases, the rated power claimed by the manufacturers won't be there all the times.. the reason they say is "it wasn't designed to have all channels active at the same time." But this is not the case with amplifiers, as the two channels will be always active.. so they won't be able to make excuses as above. Still there are amplifiers with same rated power from different manufactures differ in the ease of running the same set of speakers with similar conditions. Some vintage amplifiers with lesser rated power outperform the newest amplifiers with more rated power in performance.

Worth a read .. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/6893.html

 

[amrutmhatre90]

Integrated amplifiers will always sound better than most AVRs. I own a Denon x3700 and NAD 320BEE which I use with Q acoustics 3050i. On Denon even with all channels running it would be around 80-90 watts + but a humble NAD running 50wpc drives the Q acoustics much better, the details and the dynamics are spot on for me. Even tired a Marantz AVR, but IA comes on top anyday.

IA have just one job to do, good music, AVRs on other hand have too much going on.

If you want good music, always go for a Integrated Amplifier.