Do box speaker have artificial bass?

[newlash09]

So that means that some colouration in sound is ok and acceptable. There is no point in trying to reproduce the original may it be amplifiers, speakers and interconnects.

In my humble opinion. Some colouration is inevitable . In a day and age when the same mastering is deemed to sound different between digital and vinyl. And not to mention different dac + pre amp + amp + speaker presentations. Which is further affected by room interactions, the truth is already lost in translation.

This would be such a boring hobby if everything sounded the same, and if we were to be content with one single speaker for the rest of our lives.

So long as it sounds good to one's ears, I dont find reason to complain. Between the truth and enjoyment, I would prefer the latter.

 

[keith_correa]

IMO the obvious question to be raised is: what is your baseline or reference point and point of comparison? Is that an apples to apples comparison? You hear a tabla <or insert your favorite instrument here> unamplified and then are listening to a recording of that instrument and are comparing them minutely? Flawed comparison!
Do this - listen to an instrument unamplified along with placing a microphone near your ear to record the sound. Compare that recorded sound to what you heard live - you will have a different opinion to what you have about boxed speakers. Anything else is a waste of bandwidth.

 

[vinyl]

The main reason i don't venture into sub woofer is because it will be a nightmare to get the correct position in my room and even a bigger nightmare to sync it with my OB with no phase control. /QUOTE]
This is the reason why I always say never to use a subwoofer in a two ch audio setup. If one opts for using a sub in a 2ch stereo setup for audio, then a lot of time will be spent in placement and sync issues, and one will not be at peace to listen to music.

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

Adding to what Yogibear said.

From

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/271119-smooth-flat-vs-accurate-hi-fidelity-4.html


In 1974 B&K wrote an interesting paper http://www.bksv.com/doc/17-197.pdf called, “Relevant loudspeaker tests in studios in Hi-Fi dealers' demo rooms in the home etc. using 1/3 octave, pink-weighted, random noise” From their research, the most preferred in-room frequency response at the listening position is flat to 200 Hz, -3db at 2 kHz and -6db at 20 kHz.See Figure 5 in the paper:



As an ex 10 year recording and mixing engineer, the above graph in Figure 5 became known widely as the B&K curve.Most pro recording facilities from that point on had at least one set of control room monitors that were eq’d to the B&K curve. Given all things equal, the curve produced a perceptually flat frequency response at the mixer’s listening position.Meaning no-one frequency stood out over the other, and from our ear/brain perception, it sounds like it is a flat frequency response.

In 1998, the European Broadcast Union produced a Tech note (EBU-Tech 3276) called, “Listening conditions for the assessment of sound programme material: monophonic and two–channel stereophonic”. https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3276.pdf Again from a frequency response perspective, the recommendation was to have a flat frequency response out to 2 kHz with flat 1 db per octave rolloff.See Fig 2 on Page 6:



Again, very similar to the B&K curve.Fast forward to today and if one spends anytime on forums such as REW, Audiolense or Acourate, one finds out fairly quickly that indeed the target frequency response that provides the most perceptually flat (accurate?) listening experience at the listening position is still very similar to the original B&K house curve.

In my case, I use Acourate DSP and can shape the frequency response at the listening position any way I want with incredible precision (64 bit resolution). After trying and listening to dozens of frequency response targets, I have ended up with something very similar: flat to 1 kHz, and using 1 kHz as a hinge point, a straight line to -6 dB at 20 kHz. Many on the forums I have listed above use the same or very similar frequency response target and really is not much of a variant compared to the B&K curve some 40 years ago:

 

[Hari Iyer]

Hari, flat frequency response is indeed lifeless as well documented by many others.

I have different views about this. Flat FR does not mean ruler flat. There can be minor +/- 1 dB variation say from 40 Hz to 20KHz. Roll-off from around 60Hz for lows and 18KHz for the highs. The flat frequency should be at the sweet spot, preferably the speakers not toed in. This gives me bliss.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Hi,

Adding to what Yogibear said.

From

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/271119-smooth-flat-vs-accurate-hi-fidelity-4.html


In 1974 B&K wrote an interesting paper http://www.bksv.com/doc/17-197.pdf called, “Relevant loudspeaker tests in studios in Hi-Fi dealers' demo rooms in the home etc. using 1/3 octave, pink-weighted, random noise” From their research, the most preferred in-room frequency response at the listening position is flat to 200 Hz, -3db at 2 kHz and -6db at 20 kHz.See Figure 5 in the paper:



As an ex 10 year recording and mixing engineer, the above graph in Figure 5 became known widely as the B&K curve.Most pro recording facilities from that point on had at least one set of control room monitors that were eq’d to the B&K curve. Given all things equal, the curve produced a perceptually flat frequency response at the mixer’s listening position.Meaning no-one frequency stood out over the other, and from our ear/brain perception, it sounds like it is a flat frequency response.

In 1998, the European Broadcast Union produced a Tech note (EBU-Tech 3276) called, “Listening conditions for the assessment of sound programme material: monophonic and two–channel stereophonic”. https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3276.pdf Again from a frequency response perspective, the recommendation was to have a flat frequency response out to 2 kHz with flat 1 db per octave rolloff.See Fig 2 on Page 6:



Again, very similar to the B&K curve.Fast forward to today and if one spends anytime on forums such as REW, Audiolense or Acourate, one finds out fairly quickly that indeed the target frequency response that provides the most perceptually flat (accurate?) listening experience at the listening position is still very similar to the original B&K house curve.

In my case, I use Acourate DSP and can shape the frequency response at the listening position any way I want with incredible precision (64 bit resolution). After trying and listening to dozens of frequency response targets, I have ended up with something very similar: flat to 1 kHz, and using 1 kHz as a hinge point, a straight line to -6 dB at 20 kHz. Many on the forums I have listed above use the same or very similar frequency response target and really is not much of a variant compared to the B&K curve some 40 years ago:

I don't fully subscribe to this analysis. It's more objective than subjective. If this was required you can simply use a IC with high capacitance and you are almost done. Why to spend tons of money on IC and speaker cables.

I now am getting a feeling that most responders to this post have not heard a time and phase coherent flat frequency response ( within +/-2dB) setup. Once you are exposed to such a setup you would be amazed at how linear and controlled they sound. I have now listened bothand hence saying it with confidence.

 

[jls001]

I don't fully subscribe to this analysis. It's more objective than subjective. If this was required you can simply use a IC with high capacitance and you are almost done. Why to spend tons of money on IC and speaker cables.

I now am getting a feeling that most responders to this post have not heard a time and phase coherent flat frequency response ( within +/-2dB) setup. Once you are exposed to such a setup you would be amazed at how linear and controlled they sound. I have now listened bothand hence saying it with confidence.

B&K had quantified in numbers subjective preference. Not the other way round.

ICs will not have a uniform rolled off response like the B&K curve, hence some active intervention is required.

Personally when I play from foobar2000 I use an EQ plugin (20 bands, IIRC) and gently roll off response from 1 kHz till it reaches -1.7 dB at 20 kHz. I guess I have been very conservative compared to the -6 dB of B&K.

@Rajiv Thanks for sharing the graphs. Much appreciated.

 

[prem]

Hari, if you like what you’re hearing, end of story. Your brother in law thought bass was lacking. Different people like different strokes. There is no one universal truth. Go with what floats your boat.

 

[Kannan]

time and phase coherent flat frequency response

Where is the question of TA and phase shift in full range drivers unless you are talking now about multiway system.

 

[Hari Iyer]

B&K had quantified in numbers subjective preference. Not the other way round.

ICs will not have a uniform rolled off response like the B&K curve, hence some active intervention is required.

Personally when I play from foobar2000 I use an EQ plugin (20 bands, IIRC) and gently roll off response from 1 kHz till it reaches -1.7 dB at 20 kHz. I guess I have been very conservative compared to the -6 dB of B&K.

@Rajiv Thanks for sharing the graphs. Much appreciated.

Using EQ imo is to tweak your setup to take care of anamolies else where in the system. A well resolved and accurately setup system would not require EQ. I think it's more to do with how your speakers handle the overtones. If they store energy and release later you will need to tame the response to address that.

 

[jls001]

Using EQ imo is to tweak your setup to take care of anamolies else where in the system. A well resolved and accurately setup system would not require EQ. I think it's more to do with how your speakers handle the overtones. If they store energy and release later you will need to tame the response to address that.

The bold part is an audiophile dogma I don't subscribe to because as purists, despite not using tone control knobs or electronic EQ, most of us try to achieve tonal and frequency equalisation and defeat room issues to our liking using ICs, speaker cables, power cables, etc. Each and every one of these components have their own inherent colourations.

 

[Hari Iyer]

The bold part is an audiophile dogma I don't subscribe to because as purists, despite not using tone control knobs or electronic EQ, most of us try to achieve tonal and frequency equalisation and defeat room issues to our liking using ICs, speaker cables, power cables, etc. Each and every one of these components have their own inherent colourations.

Alright, perfection lies in the imperfections, I believe.

 

[Kannan]

Well, in real life I have found, some dips and cliffs are actually helpful in a room and just seam in very right and sound great....

Call it "Lucky or Fortunate" room correction by itself or the speakers and room acoustic "dovetailed" just right !!!!

Whatever brings pure happiness, a big smile on your face and contents your soul & hunger for music, is the BEST !

I was living in a rented house for close to a decade and in the last 24 months I tweaked a pair of speakers to suit my squarish listening space and taste with minimal acoustic treatment owing to owner intervention.
Now I have moved to another house of rectangular shape and had to spend close to 3 weks to finalize a workable wall and position to get the sound close to my liking.

Can be quite a back breaking experiment.

 

[Hiten]

Haribhai,
Problem is we don't always listen to well recorded/mastered time and phase aligned stereo music. Add to the confusion that we all have different hearing, Systems, Rooms, Cables (probably cable lifters too hee hee ), different genres, different mood; which affects our perception significantly. What might be pretty ordinary songs of Asha to someone is sounding sweet sweet to me. What may be crass bollywood music to someone may sound melodious to me.
If you feel some things are more important in music reproduction do pursue that and do share. Imperfection, individual choices, Diversity, sharing is what this hobby is about. Otherwise we would be listening to Genelecs in acoustic chamber and not talking to anyone.
Regards

 

[Hiten]

As for Bass.....there was a thread by Pano in DiyAudio where he collected frequency spectrum of 100s of soongs of various genres. (Jazz, Pop, Rock, Classical, etc. ) there was no significant music below 40 to 50 hz. and that to rolled off steeply.
Regards

 

[arj]

As for Bass.....there was a thread by Pano in DiyAudio where he collected frequency spectrum of 100s of soongs of various genres. (Jazz, Pop, Rock, Classical, etc. ) there was no significant music below 40 to 50 hz. and that to rolled off steeply.
Regards

Not sure Hiten, I have measured 20-25 hz in my room .Almost all songs in Eric Clapton unplugged has a lot of sub 30 drums Especially layla
Livingston Tyler- Grandmas hands is an Acapella but it has a distinct Sub 25Hz thump all across which is Liv hitting his leg on the floor which was thin wood, In fact this track is my Bass response test

As I wrote above..every fundamental has subharmonics which can go sub 20hz where the sound is mostly tactile. thats the reason people spend so much to get full rangers.

This chart is pretty representative of most western music instruments

 

[keith_correa]

I don't fully subscribe to this analysis. It's more objective than subjective. If this was required you can simply use a IC with high capacitance and you are almost done. Why to spend tons of money on IC and speaker cables.

Some speaker DIY'ers actually shape the response like that in the crossover.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Some speaker DIY'ers actually shape the response like that in the crossover.

Alright.

 

[Hiten]

Not sure Hiten, I have measured 20-25 hz in my room .Almost all songs in Eric Clapton unplugged has a lot of sub 30 drums Especially layla
Livingston Tyler- Grandmas hands is an Acapella but it has a distinct Sub 25Hz thump all across which is Liv hitting his leg on the floor which was thin wood, In fact this track is my Bass response test

As I wrote above..every fundamental has subharmonics which can go sub 20hz where the sound is mostly tactile. thats the reason people spend so much to get full rangers.

This chart View attachment 31493 is pretty representative of most western music instruments

Yes Arjun I am not denying that, May be Some songs but majority ( I am generalizing) dont have. I too have measured low frequency in Dire straits song and posted in this forum probably) (Not remembering) Also at what level they are needs to be looked at. 'Subharmonics" Should we try to reproduce it when fundamental low frequencies are (for lack of better word) low in level ? A compromise would be needed to use a subwoofer or a three way etc. Then we will have to make it compatible with main stereo speakers. All Individual preferences and respected.
Regards

 

[Hari Iyer]

Where is the question of TA and phase shift in full range drivers unless you are talking now about multiway system.

I have seen timing issues and phase shifts in FR drivers too. Measuring step response and impulse can show both