Do we need to spend a lot on music systems?

[jaudere]

I would like to share my thoughts over my journey through music systems over last 3 years. To make it less boring, I will split it into multiple posts rather than writing single long post. Becomes easier for me as well because I usually write on my mobile.
Let me write it flash back style.

Right now, I am using Sony Xplod car cd player paired with open baffles at my home(some people may shudder after hearing this). I am comparing it with Marantz pm6002 and my sony dvd player.
I am trying hard to miss something. How can a 20k(amp+source) compare with a 4.5k amp -source combo? I have been unsuccessful till now.
I definitely like the sound with the car cd player. Only issue is that it heats up a lot. If it has no problems after prologed tests, in all likelyhood it will become my main amp-source combo.
Why i chose car cd player?

I wanted to try an amp with low wattage after completion of my high sensitivity open baffles. Topping was going to cost 4k. It is supposed to be good but Doesnt have remote,pre out.
The car cd players are 50w max per channel into 4 ohm. They are roughly 22w rms into 4 ohm. So they will be 11w rms into 8 ohm. Quite close to Topping. At 4.3k i was getting cd player with remote,pre out in addition to the amp. So I went for it. Had it failed, i always had option to put it in my second car which does not have cd player. I already had 12V 10amp DC Transformer(cost 1700). So in 6k in total i had a some amp-source.
The good thing about car cdp pre outs is that they are variable. So in case I add a sub later,the sub volume can be controlled by the head unit itself. It is S Mosfet amp. I dont know what it means(I know Mosfet but what is S in that?) but it has a chip which looks like the Tripath chip. So probably it works on same principle as that of the Topping. Of course it does not mean it will give same quality of amplification but at least the principle will be the same.


I have already told my listening impressions. As compared to my marantz pm6002, I am not missing anything.

 

[jaudere]

I have been a music lover since long. I had an excellent Panasonic dual cassette tape deck which I would say was my first exposure to hifi. But one day a mouse went into the bass port which unfortunately my dog saw. the speaker was gone. I could never get another equally good speaker.
Then for 6 years I was busy with my residency and critical care training so didnt look much into the music.
In 2008, at my father's friend's place I had a chance to listen to a hTPC-Denon-Jamo combo and I was blown away. I wanted something like that.

I thought AVR IS AVR And bought yamaha RXV361. I realized later that I have done something less right.
I bought some installation speaker:Nx audio with 6" woofer. The combo was too sharp. So i built my first open baffles. That made be feel better but I was missing something.
I bought a huge powered mixer 250w . Excellent sound. But size was to big. Sold it. The baffle size was also big so dismantled them.
Meanwhile I bought philips micro hifi system MCD177. I sounded surprisingly good for its size.
However had built in equalizers setting which could not be modified to my liking. However it is still running well and i use it for movies.
So i had this yammy which i was not very happy with and the philips system. I was staying in a village. Whenever i visited big city, i used to go to big showrooms to audition good products.

 

[matbhuvi]

The biggest disadvantage to car audio is the road noise. It can do some damping. But, it is never ideal envt for critical listening. I great envt for fun listening.

In audiophile world, it is very very important to enjoy the music. Many people just get diverted and fall in love with their equipments and miss the music. So, i am happy that you are enjoying your setup.

Sony is never considered as an audiophile brand. It is more a consumer brand backed by great marketing. When i bought my Bose companion speakers for desktop listening, i felt it was out of the world. The music was great and i did not 'miss anything'.

I realized what i missed only when i moved a level up in my journey. Shure IEMs, better DACs, HTIB to dedicated AVR..along the way i realized what i missed when using the Bose. It is a never ending journey..there is a nice blog on this today in the article section
My Audio Learning Process

I am sure when you upgrade your home setup or car ice to the next level, you would see what you are missing there. Car ICE can get really expensive to. Just go to gearheads.in and see for yourself. I have seen a person spending 3.8L on car ICE.
The important thing is, to enjoy the music in your current state of journey. Better things may come in future. But, present is more important. Hence i like that you are not missing anything.

 

[SatSon]

Hi Jaudere,

I had always got confused reading our reviews of source+amp+matching speakers combination which is the most hot discussion always happening in this forum. So we can get a audiophile sound even from this combo?
Actually I was happy reading your post coz, I am currently using a SONY MHC-VX33 mini hifi as amp and BOSE Acoustimass 3 as the speakers with Lenovo Z570(laptop) as the source and I think I am getting good sonic feel out of this combo. (With less probability of an upgrade soon )

 

[koushik]

I would say give yourself some time(may be another 2 years) and come back to this post and read what you had written.

With same microphone, recording studio you probably can't sing like Lata Mangeshkar.
With same bat on same pitch you probably can't play like Tendulkar.
On same music, on same stage you probably can't dance like Michael Jackson.
With same audio instrument, you probably can't listen like an audiophile.

**The "you" used here is a part of phrase and not any individual

We learn to listen over time. Exposing yourself, more and more, to good music system will eventually make you "see" the music in a different way. We learn to listen. Believe me, we do learn to listen!

I will cite an example-
Once the cricket commentary was all about some names like "Jadeja", "Azzharuddin", "Tendulkar" and some phrases like "What a shot", "That is ..... offside (couldn't understand the dotted part)" etc. We use to mimic the commentator sarcastically amongst friends . But now we can hear every word they say, that's becoz we use to see the cricket religiously and in the process use to listen the commentary.

Same goes with audio systems. May be Marantz pm6002 and Sony dvd player is no good than your Xplode. Quite possible! Price don't say anything (4.3K or 20K), otherwise buying a better machine would have been all so very easy. In this case source are almost same, both are Sony. Marantz only can amplify the signal staying as loyal to the source that is being feed to it.

Bottom line is, if you are happy with the music you are getting from a less expensive system, you are lucky and I envy you

 

[jaudere]

Thanks Mathbhuvi for your comments. But wait. I am not even half way through my story. I am on deescalation path after going through a lot of auditions,experience and pondering. I have heard a lot of good and expensive systems. Will get into those gradually.

 

[jls001]

The worst music systems I ever owned were an Aiwa midi hifi with 3 CD changer, and later a Samsung midi hifi with 3 CD carousel changer. Bloated bass, weird electronic equaliser settings, and a carousel mechanism that attracted dust and eventually conked off. Took many trips to service centers, and in the end decided they were not worth it. I don't know why I bought the Samsung after such a bad experience with the Aiwa. And don't even ask me the PMPO figures:lol:

I am happy with my modest ICE, though.

 

[btcochin]

I would say give yourself some time(may be another 2 years) and come back to this post and read what you had written.

With same microphone, recording studio you probably can't sing like Lata Mangeshkar.
With same bat on same pitch you probably can't play like Tendulkar.
On same music, on same stage you probably can't dance like Michael Jackson.
With same audio instrument, you probably can't listen like an audiophile.

**The "you" used here is a part of phrase and not any individual

We learn to listen over time. Exposing yourself, more and more, to good music system will eventually make you "see" the music in a different way. We learn to listen. Believe me, we do learn to listen!

I will cite an example-
Once the cricket commentary was all about some names like "Jadeja", "Azzharuddin", "Tendulkar" and some phrases like "What a shot", "That is ..... offside (couldn't understand the dotted part)" etc. We use to mimic the commentator sarcastically amongst friends . But now we can hear every word they say, that's becoz we use to see the cricket religiously and in the process use to listen the commentary.

Same goes with audio systems. May be Marantz pm6002 and Sony dvd player is no good than your Xplode. Quite possible! Price don't say anything (4.3K or 20K), otherwise buying a better machine would have been all so very easy. In this case source are almost same, both are Sony. Marantz only can amplify the signal staying as loyal to the source that is being feed to it.

Bottom line is, if you are happy with the music you are getting from a less expensive system, you are lucky and I envy you

Very well said..

 

[jaudere]

I would say give yourself some time(may be another 2 years) and come back to this post and read what you had written.

With same microphone, recording studio you probably can't sing like Lata Mangeshkar.
With same bat on same pitch you probably can't play like Tendulkar.
On same music, on same stage you probably can't dance like Michael Jackson.
With same audio instrument, you probably can't listen like an audiophile.

**The "you" used here is a part of phrase and not any individual

We learn to listen over time. Exposing yourself, more and more, to good music system will eventually make you "see" the music in a different way. We learn to listen. Believe me, we do learn to listen!

I will cite an example-
Once the cricket commentary was all about some names like "Jadeja", "Azzharuddin", "Tendulkar" and some phrases like "What a shot", "That is ..... offside (couldn't understand the dotted part)" etc. We use to mimic the commentator sarcastically amongst friends . But now we can hear every word they say, that's becoz we use to see the cricket religiously and in the process use to listen the commentary.

Same goes with audio systems. May be Marantz pm6002 and Sony dvd player is no good than your Xplode. Quite possible! Price don't say anything (4.3K or 20K), otherwise buying a better machine would have been all so very easy. In this case source are almost same, both are Sony. Marantz only can amplify the signal staying as loyal to the source that is being feed to it.

Bottom line is, if you are happy with the music you are getting from a less expensive system, you are lucky and I envy you

One cannot sing like Lata but one can be as happy as Lata while singing for self. One cannot bat like Sachin but one enjoys it more when he plays cricket in parking personally than watching someone else on TV.

Why i am putting down my thoughts here because I have learnt my music tastes after listening to a lot of 'good' set ups,expensive set ups and then being happy with something much cheaper. Will soon share about what All I have listened to.

 

[Hiten]

Doc,
It is my personal opinion and experience that in audio hobby the more knowledge you seek more questions and confusion you encounter. Some people use brute force of money to seek answers some people seek info and guidance from net and friends. But trust me both have good and equal chance of not reaching 'there' as there is no universal single truth, only multiple truths of this subjective hobby. It would be three years I joined the forum and I am leaning towards saying that if one takes care of basic fundamentals in audio amplification and reproduction, minor differences a particular thing makes even if true shouldn't matter. Please remember we were listening to Akai/Bush/Sony/Philips and we were perfectly happy until we came to know about this wonderful hobby. As for money part for ex. there is no point in browsing (which I have been doing a lot since last three years ) Michell Gyrodec turntable costing Rs. 1,30,000/- (without tonearm) which in my lifetime I am never going to be able to buy it. Infact Doc, I thank you for this thread as it has helped me in taking a pause and come down to earthly reality.

Interestingly following basic questions are stubbornly fought by both the camps and still have no straight answer.

Which is better tubes or SS ?
Which Class A or A/B ?
How much wattage is needed ?
Is sub necessary ?
Do cables make difference ?
Can one distinguish two Digital source ?

People say whatever sounds good you should listen to, but they rip apart and give nervous breakdown to newbies when newbies say they like Bose system.

People say make informed choice. But there is no definite information on above important questions. There is no general consensus lets say even by small margin of a mutually agreeable answer to above questions.

People say buy within your budget. But it doesn't makes sense. As they say Rs. 3000/- Tripath amp (at low volume) beats the hell out of commercial Rs. 35,000/- amp.

People say they can hear different jitter clocks. But are not ready to prove it.

People say caps resonance makes difference, Amplifier cabinet resonance makes difference and SS amps should be on three conical feets, People say schottky diode are the one to look for, Nichicon Muse and dale resistors are best. We have audiophile Furutech fuses costing Rs.6400/- Soon people will audition different fuses & cabinets. Strange.

Questions ! Questions !! Questions !!! Debates ! Debates !! Debates !!! Choices ! Choices !! Choices !!! Slowly and surely I am giving up on understanding audiophile stuff.

Let me tell you what I am contemplating. A good Source and in and around 100W discrete Solid state stereo amplifier is all I need. Now only speaker designs (Which in my opinion is most important) and of course Music interests me. :licklips:

All my personal opinion no offense to anyone.

Regards

 

[aventhu]

Bottom line is, if you are happy with the music you are getting from a less expensive system, you are lucky and I envy you

I too envy u jaudere

 

[pupupuchi28]

Jaudere - I'm waiting for the other parts of your story. I have a interesting observation to share, but will hold myself till you complete.

 

[jls001]

Questions ! Questions !! Questions !!! Debates ! Debates !! Debates !!! Choices ! Choices !! Choices !!! Slowly and surely I am giving up on understanding audiophile stuff.

Don't give up yet! till you find your truth. And I think you are close.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I have some fascination for audio gear. Just as some might have always wanted to fly a plane, I would love to be the guy behind one of those huge mixing desks, and have the ears, the knowledge and the experience to use it! So my fascination tends to be in the area where PC audio can use semi-pro gear.

I am, unashamedly, a consumer. I can admit to being one of those people that the marketing men know full well are influenced by the look, by the name, and even by the price tag on a piece of equipment.

In accordance with all that, I dream of kit I cannot afford. I even dream of trying out multiple pieces of kit that, individually, I can afford, but could not justify owning more than one. In accordance with all that, I also sometimes fiddle, with gear, with settings, etc etc. I also am enjoying learning about audio basics. I enjoy the controversies too (thanks Hifivision!).

However ... when I am really enjoying music, all of that, along with the rest of life's worries and trivia, has no meaning whatsoever. Only the music has meaning. Only the music is the experience.

We are multiple-facet creatures. There is room for all this, and more in our lives. The true audiophiloe is probably some mythical being who doesn't give a toss about the equipment ... only the music.

As for the core question of the thread: I guess there is a minimum cost of necessary, quality components, but I don't doubt that the rest is boxing, presentation and marketing. Even Musical Fidelity, which is one of the brands that I have lusted after, in presenting their budget V Series, admit that only a small percentage of the cost of more expensive kit is spent on the actual audio components.

 

[deba]

Never - A budget of Rs 1 Lakh is enough to get a very good audio setup. Above it is all "status upliftment".

 

[prem]

Hi Hiten


Good to see you are arriving at a combo that makes sense for you. IMO everything set up well works. Synergy is way more critical than anything else. Understanding what you like in your sound is important. Whether you like more mids, better soundstaging, etc, an understanding of that is important. Auditions of a few systems will help you figure that out. Topology, whether ss or tubes or electrostats or dynamic speakers does not really matter. As long as they float your boat. A basic understanding of what your room is doing to the sound is also important. I also strongly believe there is no point asking others if they like the sound of your system. You will end up getting confused and unhappy because each person hears differently. Your typical response will be the drums were not very clear, some will say its not airy. There will be no end to it. If you are enjoying your system, just sit back relax and enjoy.

 

[keith_correa]

To the OP:

So, if you have heard some of the so called audiophile and highly rated stuff out there, and you still feel that at this time with your relatively "humble" rig you do not miss anything and it floats your boat, then - You are one lucky person and I say MORE POWER TO YOU!!!
All that matters is that you enjoy the music and it certainly looks like you are doing that.

 

[jaudere]

Thanks guys for participation. Let me go ahead with the story. Remember it is a flash back?

So I came to Goa last year. I needed a good speaker and i didnt want to go for open baffles. I was staying in rented place and didnt know when and where i will move out.

This time i went to pro audio shop. Listened to yamaha MSP5 Studio monitors. Was impressed. But cost was 28k per pair. I did not need active speakers. So looked at Indian brand. Ventronics. MTM Design, 8" woofers, silk dome tweeter. Good workmanship, ok looking crossovers (which of course I saw after buying). Cost 10k. Was mighty impressive when paired with some Studiomaster 100w stereo amp. Bought those. They were decent with my yamaha Avr but not impressive. So out went the AVR. And in came the Marantz pm6002.
Before buying it, I compared Denon 510 stereo amp with norge 2060 paired to Quad towers. Could not make out the difference. And norge 4242 with marantz 6002 with KEF (i think they were Q 300 ) bookshelves. Again the difference was so subtle that i could not justify the triple cost. However 1 month later dealer called me that i can buy it for 16.5k. So i thought it to be a good bargain. Got it.That was a good decision. It paired very well with my newly acquired bookshelves.

All along i was gradually realizing that a high powered amp was not necessary for my way of listening. Even a 30watt amp could be suffice.

 

[koushik]

One cannot sing like Lata but one can be as happy as Lata while singing for self. One cannot bat like Sachin but one enjoys it more when he plays cricket in parking personally than watching someone else on TV.

Exactly, that was my bottom line. Everything is for our entertainment so if we are happy with what we are listening. Thats it. Nothing can be there beyond that.

 

[gopib]

SNIP/SNIP

However ... when I am really enjoying music, all of that, along with the rest of life's worries and trivia, has no meaning whatsoever. Only the music has meaning. Only the music is the experience.

We are multiple-facet creatures. There is room for all this, and more in our lives. The true audiophiloe is probably some mythical being who doesn't give a toss about the equipment ... only the music.

SNIP/SNIP.

Well said Thad!!:clapping: