Double Blind Test (DBT)

[square_wave]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

The truth is whether it is CDP or PC, the possible slight difference could not be detectable reliably under DBT or according to industry standards for subjective evaluation.

This difference will be audible if you use the modified version of the DBT that I proposed. The usual method using short samples, random listeners and switchers etcis faulty and wont work for audio. Try it yourself. Most DBT proponents will not due to well known reasons.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

;622382 using useless testing method.

I see you use foobar... Have you tried the ABX plugin? I would really like to do some ABX testing on sample rates, but I don't have a way to do that on my system. Would hate to have to boot Windows

 

[dheerajin]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

I see you use foobar... Have you tried the ABX plugin? I would really like to do some ABX testing on sample rates, but I don't have a way to do that on my system. Would hate to have to boot Windows

Thad i am much happy with the current setup..and more than sampling rates i beileve in KBPS....while playing SACD rips foobar shows 5000 kbps...gives me much thrill...any how as you suggested would give it a try...

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

I thought listening to music was about enjoyment, not scientific perfection.

To me, the flow of music and how a system reproduces it is very important. However, there dont seem to be any commonly published figures for amps, cd players etc that measure this. If I go by your approach, my hearing or my brain is wrong and the relaxation I feel listening to music is actually an illusion. To take that to its ultimate conclusion, I should throw away all my gear and listen on something that is "scientifically" as good but doesnt actually bring me that relaxation/enjoyment.

Looks like you are very confused. Let me summarize for you.

1) room makes the biggest difference.
2) speakers make big difference.
3) amplifiers difference is related directly to your speakers power requiemt.
4) depends on the cables design it can make a difference. This can be addressed with 1 and 2 above.
5) a well mastered 16 bit 44.1 kHz is all you need for best SQ. If you could hear the difference in higher resolution format from than so be it.
6) CDP sound is similar irrespective the cost. The next time you hear a difference measure the output of the CD player and see if it complies to the standard output or not.
7) PC sound subject to the many possible settings. Including the internal EQ.
8) beware of subjective opinions. especially, if the person expression the opinion do not believe in DBT.
9) if you hear a difference than you should no trouble to hear the difference in DBT.
10) I forgot....will edit later.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

This difference will be audible if you use the modified version of the DBT that I proposed. The usual method using short samples, random listeners and switchers etcis faulty and wont work for audio. Try it yourself. Most DBT proponents will not due to well known reasons.

Hmmm... Quite a few people insist that it doesn't work because they didn't get the result they expected. That is not quite the same thing.

As far as I know, there are no "rules" about samples being short, listeners being random, or switching not being under the control of the listener. I've heard it said that, because audio memory is actually rather short, the reliable way to detect difference is short samples. This may be true, but I also understand that we are interested in the sum total effect that the music has on us. We are not machines: if we listen to the same piece of music twice, how can we have exactly the same response each time?

In fact, I find that this is a mistake made in sighted testing. The last time I joined in a session, at one point my contribution was, "Yes, it sounds different, but I have now heard this piece of music so many times, of course my brain is going to find new things in it." ...Or just get bored.

This difference will be audible if you use the modified version of the DBT that I proposed.

Ahh, wait, sorry, I didn't read that properly. In this thread? I missed it.

Thad i am much happy with the current setup..and more than sampling rates i beileve in KBPS....while playing SACD rips foobar shows 5000 kbps...gives me much thrill...any how as you suggested would give it a try...

That's fine too. I often feel that I would rather be enjoying music, or even silence, rather than knocking my head against tests and challenges. But that doesn't make them wrong or irrelevant.

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

This difference will be audible if you use the modified version of the DBT that I proposed. The usual method using short samples, random listeners and switchers etcis faulty and wont work for audio. Try it yourself. Most DBT proponents will not due to well known reasons.

Please provide me the link. It is so hard to search with iphone. Thanks.

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Please chose credible experts. Toms Hardware commenting on audio equipment doesnt qualify as an "expert", someone like Steve Hoffman would

The procedure of the test is there for you to find out. If you really insist then I will check dor AES papers. Right now you couldn't rebut the findings of Toms Harware so what's the use of real experts paper. I don't see any real expert talks about high end except those glossy magazines.

 

[square_wave]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Please provide me the link. It is so hard to search with iphone. Thanks.

http://www.hifivision.com/cd-players/54502-cd-player-still-relevant-15.html#post621910

 

[jai1611]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

The procedure of the test is there for you to find out. If you really insist then I will check dor AES papers. Right now you couldn't rebut the findings of Toms Harware so what's the use of real experts paper. I don't see any real expert talks about high end except those glossy magazines.

There are literally thousands of writeups about studio equipment. These are not written in glossy magazines and are meant for people who make a living out of sound. Even someone as well regarded as Steve Hoffman talks about the importance of good converters - something you think is junk

Looks like you are very confused. Let me summarize for you.

1) room makes the biggest difference.
2) speakers make big difference.
3) amplifiers difference is related directly to your speakers power requiemt.
4) depends on the cables design it can make a difference. This can be addressed with 1 and 2 above.
5) a well mastered 16 bit 44.1 kHz is all you need for best SQ. If you could hear the difference in higher resolution format from than so be it.
6) CDP sound is similar irrespective the cost. The next time you hear a difference measure the output of the CD player and see if it complies to the standard output or not.
7) PC sound subject to the many possible settings. Including the internal EQ.
8) beware of subjective opinions. especially, if the person expression the opinion do not believe in DBT.
9) if you hear a difference than you should no trouble to hear the difference in DBT.
10) I forgot....will edit later.

I strongly disagree with point 6. Going by the fact that pro audio companies also make DA converters, which studios actually spend thousands of dollars buy, I guess the pro industry disagrees with you too. Eg, look up the Prism DA-2

I do agree with points 1-5 and 7 to a greater or lesser degree

I dont have a particular view on DBT. I do think that listening under an hour is not enough to judge anything about a piece of equipment. I don't go by what I read but what I hear to buy components.

 

[dheerajin]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

On the different note-
Why HT guys have perfectly treated room? Till now no sterephile has been seen with the same in this forum(may be i have not seen one)...every other person saying it is their living room including me. When it comes to gyan, eveyone is pushing or publishing their thought...but no one is talking in real terms...i have seen people outside this forum enjoying music ...but in this forum FMs having stellar system are always thinking of making better for the sound output and they are not satisfied...i have played the Song Hotel California with normal wav format and SACD format..and each and every person being ..audiophile or not could make a differentiation...so for me live audiance makes the difference not any theoretical results

 

[hemantwaghe]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

I thought listening to music was about enjoyment, not scientific perfection.

To me, the flow of music and how a system reproduces it is very important. However, there dont seem to be any commonly published figures for amps, cd players etc that measure this. If I go by your approach, my hearing or my brain is wrong and the relaxation I feel listening to music is actually an illusion. To take that to its ultimate conclusion, I should throw away all my gear and listen on something that is "scientifically" as good but doesnt actually bring me that relaxation/enjoyment.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

 

[jls001]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

How is this double blind test thingie done? In the RealWorld (TM), I mean.

Does it need a blindfold or some curtain? Of how much opacity or size? How many people needed to conduct it? What to listen for, and why are these things (what to listen for) important in making a choice? Do we trust the result if the human test subject happens to be a non-DBTnik? Do we first buy the gear(s) we need to DBT? Or is there a method to cajole a shopkeeper to part with the gear(s) for the duration of this important scientific test? When is the result thus obtained statistically significant? How does one tabulate results? Is personal choice and bias given due consideration? Or is there some absolute reference that everyone must consider sacrosanct? How to set those rules, if any? Who have set them? How widely accepted are those scientific rules and axioms? If these are usually conducted in controlled environments, how do we translate them to the real world without diluting the methodolgy and its results or applicability?

In the interest of this scientific method which some of us so strongly advocate, it would be fair to clarify the above questions for those of us ignorant of its importance, before we mouth further platitudes about DBT.

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

There are literally thousands of writeups about studio equipment. These are not written in glossy magazines and are meant for people who make a living out of sound. Even someone as well regarded as Steve Hoffman talks about the importance of good converters - something you think is junk.

I am still waiting for the links. Remember, I have always emphasized the gain aspect before making an evaluation or DBT. Secondly, studio sound level is not what you listen to at home. Well.. some do. The Realtek may clip and distort if they were going to use their reference level. Stop buying based on what's suitable for the studios. What's good and right for F1 cars wouldnt be an useful upgrade to a Sonata. Be realistic in your actual requirement.

BTW, SH also thinks active speakers are not neutral and headphones sound is unnatural.

I strongly disagree with point 6. Going by the fact that pro audio companies also make DA converters, which studios actually spend thousands of dollars buy, I guess the pro industry disagrees with you too. Eg, look up the Prism DA-2.

If you disagree, you could always do a DBT and prove otherwise. I am sure TAS and Stereophiles and hundreds of high end manufacturer would be grateful.

Have you ever stepped inside a recording or mastering room? Do you know how loud they play? My friend who is in the business of producing music album suffering from tinnitus and he cant hear anything above 10kHz. He lost his hearing after one session of loud rock music recording. That's the first time he heard the ringing sound in his ears and ever since.

Live music sound is loud and damaging. It not uncommon to see many sound engineers with damaged hearing. Find out why Sir George Martin lost his hearing. Studio sound is just too loud. You need better specs and tolerance level for that. You average speakers are not going to stand the loudness level. I remember taking a virtual tour of AR Rahaman's recording studio and just by looking at the speakers you could guess the loudness level.

I do think that listening under an hour is not enough to judge anything about a piece of equipment. I don't go by what I read but what I hear to buy components.

Take your time. I usually do it over weeks or months. I am aware of certain weakness in short term DBT as recent fMRI scan revealed that different area of brain active under different condition.

I am not asking anyone not to upgrade cables or CDP or DAC. If you can afford them, by all means do it. Personal satisfaction is more important than anything else.

My target audience are for average people like myself with limited money who are going to make a decision based on ads and reviews spending their hard earned cash. You may not be in this category.

 

[jai1611]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

I am still waiting for the links.

Check out a publication called soundonsound. Their entire archive is available online. Also look up user reviews on gearslutz. These are not TAS/Stereophile/Whathifi.

Remember, I have always emphasized the gain aspect before making an evaluation or DBT. Secondly, studio sound level is not what you listen to at home. Well.. some do. The Realtek may clip and distort if they were going to use their reference level. Stop buying based on what's suitable for the studios. What's good and right for F1 cars wouldnt be an useful upgrade to a Sonata. Be realistic in your actual requirement.

Now your argument has shifted to DACs and CD players only matter at high volumes? Thats not what you wrote in your earlier posts. You categorically said CD players etc dont matter, no mention of listening volume - only the gain of the CD player output. Direct quote from your post below:

6) CDP sound is similar irrespective the cost. The next time you hear a difference measure the output of the CD player and see if it complies to the standard output or not.

Unlike you, I trust my own ears. If I try a component in my system and hear a difference, its enough for me. The last DAC I bought was tried in my own system and compared head on against what I was already using (after matching volume levels). I recommend the same practice of listening and deciding for themselves to others. This hobby is subjective - what one person likes and priorities may not work for others. Hence all reviews and opinions need to treated with some skepticism and the understanding that the conclusions may not apply to the situation at hand.

I neither have the time, nor the resources and inclination to do DBT. I dont think most people who are into this as a hobby do either.

 

[BLASTO]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Oh my..
Are we discussing all CDPs and DAC sound the same?

Call it EQing or adding pleasing harmonics or unnatural coloration or whatever but they ALL sound different.

In fact I have seen any two different DACs that sound the same.

@Ambio: Lot of our assumptions are based on our own setup. You seem to have a harbeth. I have read in many places that harbeths don't show much difference between components. In fact the creator challenges that any half decent CDP and amp is enough to make the harbeths sound the way they should. Now, this may be the reason for a lot of your assumptions. You are in for a surprise when you change (for example to a thiel which lays bare everything your components have and don't have).

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Check out a publication called soundonsound. Their entire archive is available online. Also look up user reviews on gearslutz. These are not TAS/Stereophile/Whathifi.

I read SOS on regular basis. If I want users' review I can get it right here in this forum. Provide a link and we can discuss further. I would be happy to be wrong so I can go on a shopping spree for cables.

Now your argument has shifted to DACs and CD players only matter at high volumes? Thats not what you wrote in your earlier posts. You categorically said CD players etc dont matter, no mention of listening volume - only the gain of the CD player output. Direct quote from your post below:

Yes. I repeat.

Originally Posted by Ambio View Post
6) CDP sound is similar irrespective the cost. The next time you hear a difference measure the output of the CD player and see if it complies to the standard output or not.

Unlike you, I trust my own ears.

Only ears? How about other senses?

If I try a component in my system and hear a difference, its enough for me..

As mentioned before, you are not my target audience. I am more concerned for people who would like to spend their money wisely and who would like to revaluate the past decisions. I am not trying to convince anyone else who falls in Dr. Bowes category of audiophilia. It is a harmless obsession and I am also probably guilty of that.

The last DAC I bought was tried in my own system and compared head on against what I was already using (after matching volume levels)..

How you level matched? Where was your volume knob position? What did you use to level match?

I neither have the time, nor the resources and inclination to do DBT. I dont think most people who are into this as a hobby do either.

It is a joke when you count the number of times, since the 80s, TAS and Stereophiles dropped their jaws of hearing a new level of improvement. And audiophiles are yet to find perfection! At the same time there are audiophiles exclusively hang on to their vintage equipment.

Your are entitled to your preference. The question is whether they are an emotional subjective opinion or based on real tangible evidence?

If it is real than it will be repeatable and you should able to prove it. Instead of saying "trust my ears" and since you cannot and refuse to take DBT your subjective opinion is just that an opinion.

Just about three or four weeks ago, local high end dealer, his assistant and myself were listening to the speakers out of phase and it took me two hours to realize that. Thank god I didn't trust my ears. Or thank god I trusted my ears to know something was wrong.

 

[jai1611]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

I read SOS on regular basis. If I want users' review I can get it right here in this forum. Provide a link and we can discuss further. I would be happy to be wrong so I can go on a shopping spree for cables.


As mentioned before, you are not my target audience. I am more concerned for people who would like to spend their money wisely and who would like to revaluate the past decisions. I am not trying to convince anyone else who falls in Dr. Bowes category of audiophilia. It is a harmless obsession and I am also probably guilty of that.

How you level matched? Where was your volume knob position? What did you use to level match?

It is a joke when you count the number of times, since the 80s, TAS and Stereophiles dropped their jaws of hearing a new level of improvement. And audiophiles are yet to find perfection! At the same time there are audiophiles exclusively hang on to their vintage equipment.

Your are entitled to your preference. The question is whether they are an emotional subjective opinion or based on real tangible evidence?

If it is real than it will be repeatable and you should able to prove it. Instead of saying "trust my ears" and since you cannot and refuse to take DBT you subjective opinion is just that an opinion.

Just about three or four weeks ago, local high end dealer, his assistant and myself were listening to the speakers out of phase and it took me two hours to realize that. Thank god I didn't trust my ears. Or thank god I trusted my ears to know something was wrong.

We were talking about all DACs sounding the same, not cables. Please look up digital interface and DA converter reviews on SoS.

Level matching was done using a sound meter and a test tone. Its fairly easy to do. Its the blind part that makes things tricky.

My point is simple - trust your OWN ears, not mine or someone else's and not someone's who is funded by ad money. If you hear a difference and enjoy it, be satisfied with that instead of letting some dogmatic individual goad you into worrying about potential neurosis.

You seem to have a problem with people trusting their own senses and insist that they are wrong unless they take a DBT.

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

We were talking about all DACs sounding the same, not cables. Please look up digital interface and DA converter reviews on SoS.

Level matching was done using a sound meter and a test tone. Its fairly easy to do. Its the blind part that makes things tricky.

My point is simple - trust your OWN ears, not mine or someone else's and not someone's who is funded by ad money. If you hear a difference and enjoy it, be satisfied with that instead of letting some dogmatic individual goad you into worrying about potential neurosis.

You seem to have a problem with people trusting their own senses and insist that they are wrong unless they take a DBT.

As expected no direct link for further discussion. Is SOS an audiophile magazine? What was the volume knob position? Could you name the brands?

For more than 15 or 16 years I was using Theta Digital Gen III DAC (bought new and without any modification); I have had entertained two dealers and several friends to audition them in my system to show their latest multifold up sampling DAC to sound distinguishable than the old machine. To the dealer the deal was simple - if they could identify their superior player in blind test I would buy their equipment on the spot.

 

[jai1611]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

As expected no direct link for further discussion. Is SOS an audiophile magazine?

SoS is not an audiophile magazine, which is the point. They are not invested behind selling the latest "audiophile" product.

Your claim is that all DACs, CD players sound the same as long as they are level matched. This is something which even the studio / recording publications and users seem to disagree with.

Some links: Benchmark DAC2 HGC
A quote from this one:
"My Crookwood mastering console allows different converters to be compared directly. When auditioning audio without inter-sample peaks, I noticed a subtle improvement in overall detail and clarity between the DAC2 HGC and DAC1, with fractionally cleaner and quieter backgrounds, and a smoother top end.

As is so often the case, we're in the world of rapidly diminishing returns here, and the DAC2 HGC is almost twice the price of the original DAC1. Nevertheless, it does manage to deliver a soundstage that I perceived as being slightly more lifelike, even more transparent, cleaner, quieter, more polished and, ultimately, more involving to audition. Benchmark claim it sounds more 'analogue' and, actually, it does!"

A few more, each with a "listening" section:
Burl B2 Bombers
Perfect Conversion

For more than 15 or 16 years I was using Theta Digital Gen III DAC (bought new and without any modification); I have had entertained two dealers and several friends to audition them in my system to show their latest multifold up sampling DAC to sound distinguishable than the old machine. To the dealer the deal was simple - if they could identify their superior player in blind test I would buy their equipment on the spot.

Why keep it? If you are so convinced, sell that and use the output from a motherboard with an on board realtek sound card.