panditji
Well-Known Member
Look forward to it....do also let us know how good the DAC is...would be great if yu could compare it with a reasonably priced DAC for us to get a fair idea...
DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core (Home Demo Experience)
- Thread starter aashish351
- Start date
No can do, I am not a big believer in modern day DACs as an influencer of heard sounds anymore. And any valid comparison would mean setting up a level matched test, and I can't be bothered with that.
My interest in it as a DAC and preamp is only to be able to substitute it for my two boxes. I trust the technologies involved in these enough to rely on them by virtue of the fact that appropriate sockets exist! What I will do for these is make sure things like volume control provide enough fineness to make small enough changes to sound levels to be useful to me. Or that the DAC output voltages are enough to allow my amp to work at roughly the same gain levels it has to today.
What is THE open question to me is the effect room EQ has in my room for the music I like.
DAC and volume controls are just extra features whose value is in justifying the Rs 89k spend. Knowing my system very well, I can't see anything doing enough room EQ to an extent I will need to justify that spend, if these features were missing.
Good question. It will depend upon how much problematic your room, speaker placement and listening position is. If you already have a very good setup in acoustics, there won't be much EQ needed. But if you do have few issues, then I am sure Anti-mode will take care of those.
Many people focus on low frequencies for eq. I have seen people using Anti-mode especially with subwoofers and getting good results. If your setup needs eq help, Antimode is right up there and will do the job.
Ahh..we meet again here, good.
I have a typical Indian living room set up. I have had to move my Harbeths from dedicated stands to a long shelf, quite close to the walls/corners. Perhaps due to the forgiving nature of the speakers, I haven't lost a lot of SQ by the move. This box is such that the only way to test it, is by audition in a familiar system, familiar room and with familiar music files!
DSpeaker have another unit for just subwoofer eq - supposedly works very well and costs about Rs35k.
This one is for full range speakers, and thankfully has preamp and DAC capability.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
That reads a bit audiophool to me, I'm afraid
.We all know that stuff sounds different indoors, in cars, in big rooms, in big halls, and we don't need to EQ to understand conversations, but (like they say about sine waves
) that isn't listening to music.Actually, I'm very aware of the power of the ear/brain to adjust, as I so regularly listen to live music in bad acoustic environments with bad[ly operated] PA/amplification. Up to a limit, my ears, somehow, sort out the music. But would those halls, and those events, benefit from decent acoustic/treatment and or proper EQ? You bet! Absolutely no doubt about it.
OK, so the same thing may or may not be true of our music systems in our living rooms, but I really do think it is worth a try.
(as to a grand piano sounding great anywhere, I haven't tried, but I doubt it very much
)But, impressive (and fairly easy to use) though both of those boxes look, I don't think I'd want to be limited to the low frequencies ---for the simple reason that, if I am going to EQ, I am going to EQ for my ears as well as the room.
I'd look at the Behringer device which has been discussed on the forum before. Does a lot more, costs (I think) a lot less. Of course, I have no clue as to comparison of sound quality.
As I'm mostly playing music from the PC these days, the possibilities are all built in without any other box: zero-box solution
. And as I'm mostly using headphones ...well, there goes the need for room correction.But hey, one day I might have a listening space for "proper" hifi again!
I just finished reading your sub experience thread. Why aren't you looking at the DSpeaker product for just sub eq? Based on USD pricing, that one should be about Rs 35k.
Shivam
Well-Known Member
For a simple reason that my next listening room may not be as good as the present and I like the concept of preamp being built into this box.
Are you taking the same set up into the next room? If so, looking at your main speakers, it would appear that your area of concern would be subwoofer eq/optimisation.
Yes, there is a preamp, but at about Rs 50-60k, a pretty expensive one
I hope to do the set up tonight, and have a playlist of music ready. Jazz, Indian classical, close miked acoustic vocals, jazz and classical piano, Beethoven's fifth, African beats and some bass led rock, all set up.
I hope that the unit has a defeat switch, to allow for instantaneous AB comparison.
Unless the differences jump out via such a comparison, I can't see myself spending the money asked.
More later.
Anti mode installed. It took about 20 minutes, most of it for the room calibration via the supplied microphone. The room needs to be kept reasonably silent for the duration - no gross sounds like doorbells, phone rings, doors opening/closing and people talking.
The box stores the before and after room response graphs, if any one is interested, I will upload a photo.
I have currently wired the box in place of the preamp, so volume controls are via Anti mode.
And the remote has a bypass button, so it is very simple to do AB comparisons.
First impressions after 10 minutes listening are that the effect is very subtle, heard clearly though. Bass bloom is noticeably reduced. But I still have to find a way to figure out if the same effect can be obtained via the preamp tone controls, because currently it is out of the loop.
It isn't a jump up and down got to buy it reaction though. Mainly because I very rarely do a sitting in the sweet spot contemplative listening any more.
More after a couple of days. I have to do some near field listening just to collect more impressions - these won't be of much real value to me, because I don't listen in the near field.
At first blush, my immediate reaction is that the Harbeths are very good at close to walls placement in the first place, seeing the extent to which Anti mode has corrected the bass bloom. Noticeable, but subtle.
The box stores the before and after room response graphs, if any one is interested, I will upload a photo.
I have currently wired the box in place of the preamp, so volume controls are via Anti mode.
And the remote has a bypass button, so it is very simple to do AB comparisons.
First impressions after 10 minutes listening are that the effect is very subtle, heard clearly though. Bass bloom is noticeably reduced. But I still have to find a way to figure out if the same effect can be obtained via the preamp tone controls, because currently it is out of the loop.
It isn't a jump up and down got to buy it reaction though. Mainly because I very rarely do a sitting in the sweet spot contemplative listening any more.
More after a couple of days. I have to do some near field listening just to collect more impressions - these won't be of much real value to me, because I don't listen in the near field.
At first blush, my immediate reaction is that the Harbeths are very good at close to walls placement in the first place, seeing the extent to which Anti mode has corrected the bass bloom. Noticeable, but subtle.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Yes, curious to see the pics, please!
DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core Review
If you don't have much time, here is the bottom line - I am not buying it.
For that decision it took me just 3-4 hours of playing around with it, more of the same would not throw up anything else.
The first graph posted is from the calibration done by the Lakozy salesman. I thought I will give it another chance to see if the reason I am not hearing enough differences is because of calibration quality. The second graph is from the second calibration. Some differences, but same audible results.
Test set up:
Dspeaker receiving analog inputs from Marantz SACD player. And putting out volume controlled analog outputs directly to Quad 909 power amp, feeding Harbeth C7es3 speakers which have the following relevant spec: 46Hz - 20kHz +/-3dB, free space, 1m.
Wiring in and powering up is simple. Calibration takes time, but is simple. Volume control via the remote is very good. The remote is very small and well made. But lose it and the system won't work.
The remote has a bypass switch that switches the sound back and forth between corrected and uncorrected. Works well enough for instant AB comparisons with a small exception to the extent that the uncorrected sound levels are just a little higher than corrected ones. I don't think that this affected my final decision, once I took this into account in making assessments.
I haven't moved beyond the auto mode which only corrects up to 150hz. Further tweaking is possible, all the way up to 500hz. And manual tweaking is available all the way to 20khz. The Lakozy person agreed at the start that if the auto mode isn't moving the needle of SQ enough, further tweaking isn't going to add much more weight to that result.
Findings:
1. No impact where there should not be - piano, vocals, are not affected.
2. Jazz piano trios, subtle effect on the bass, no change in the other two. Even where there is a close miked vocalist in the track.
3. Classical Indian - a very subtle effect, perhaps.
4. Jazz like the Brubeck/Morello Take Five - very subtle to none.
4. Music with driving bass - think Breaking Bad house party style, Ranglins Beyond the Bass line, very noticeable tightening/cleaning up of the bass. Here too, some people may actually prefer the uncorrected sound, if they like the room resonance driven thumping.
Does it do the trick of giving a more convincing bass presence when listening at low volumes - no.
I had one difficulty I did not figure out how to overcome. Given that the Quad preamp was out of the loop, I could not compare the corrected sound with that from the Quad preamp with its bass cut/treble lift tilt engaged along with a small bass cut. Since I saw only a few places where I preferred the corrected version for the music I play, and the improvement was subtle, I have assumed that using the preamp, I can narrow down the difference to become even more subtle, if not disappear completely.
So, for me, even if it was in the Rs 15k price region, it is borderline decision. At Rs 89k, it is a no brainer.
Could I justify this by selling the Quad 99 preamp - there is no way I will get Rs 75k for it that it would take to bridge the gap, even though a new one goes for about Rs 90k now. Even if I could, I would hesitate. The Quad breaks down, I know Quad UK will fix it even years from now. This one breaks down after the warranty period, that the end of the story most likely.
Who may this make sense for, leaving price considerations apart?
Some one with either - or more likely a combination of the following:
1. Speakers with more range than mine, say that go down to a true 25-30 hz.
2. Room acoustics issues with consequent bass delivery.
3. Preference of music with aggressive and constant bass presence.
4. Preference of higher than normal sound levels for most listening.
5. Lots of listening happens from the sweet spot - in my case, my wandering around while music is playing and the usual things that happen in a lived in living room means that subtle differences of the kind I noticed don't matter in practice. For the test, I did tie myself down to the sweet spot though.
Even in a case where the above kind of circumstances apply, the price demands an extended at home audition.
Remember finally that there is nothing this box can do to extend the SQ limitation of your speakers. All it can do is the correct the room induced SQ degradation of the best your speaker can do. Once that is done, the constraint shifts back to the quality of your speakers.
PS: a sixth factor, recalling some comments else where on this site about my hearing. Even if I was born with golden ears, I am certain that age has taken them away. They still work perfectly well for enjoying life to the full, so for sure I am not going to take heed of a ludicrous suggestion that also has been made, of taking an audiogram test. But this aspect is certainly a factor that may affect another's assessment of the worth of the unit.
If you don't have much time, here is the bottom line - I am not buying it.
For that decision it took me just 3-4 hours of playing around with it, more of the same would not throw up anything else.
The first graph posted is from the calibration done by the Lakozy salesman. I thought I will give it another chance to see if the reason I am not hearing enough differences is because of calibration quality. The second graph is from the second calibration. Some differences, but same audible results.
Test set up:
Dspeaker receiving analog inputs from Marantz SACD player. And putting out volume controlled analog outputs directly to Quad 909 power amp, feeding Harbeth C7es3 speakers which have the following relevant spec: 46Hz - 20kHz +/-3dB, free space, 1m.
Wiring in and powering up is simple. Calibration takes time, but is simple. Volume control via the remote is very good. The remote is very small and well made. But lose it and the system won't work.
The remote has a bypass switch that switches the sound back and forth between corrected and uncorrected. Works well enough for instant AB comparisons with a small exception to the extent that the uncorrected sound levels are just a little higher than corrected ones. I don't think that this affected my final decision, once I took this into account in making assessments.
I haven't moved beyond the auto mode which only corrects up to 150hz. Further tweaking is possible, all the way up to 500hz. And manual tweaking is available all the way to 20khz. The Lakozy person agreed at the start that if the auto mode isn't moving the needle of SQ enough, further tweaking isn't going to add much more weight to that result.
Findings:
1. No impact where there should not be - piano, vocals, are not affected.
2. Jazz piano trios, subtle effect on the bass, no change in the other two. Even where there is a close miked vocalist in the track.
3. Classical Indian - a very subtle effect, perhaps.
4. Jazz like the Brubeck/Morello Take Five - very subtle to none.
4. Music with driving bass - think Breaking Bad house party style, Ranglins Beyond the Bass line, very noticeable tightening/cleaning up of the bass. Here too, some people may actually prefer the uncorrected sound, if they like the room resonance driven thumping.
Does it do the trick of giving a more convincing bass presence when listening at low volumes - no.
I had one difficulty I did not figure out how to overcome. Given that the Quad preamp was out of the loop, I could not compare the corrected sound with that from the Quad preamp with its bass cut/treble lift tilt engaged along with a small bass cut. Since I saw only a few places where I preferred the corrected version for the music I play, and the improvement was subtle, I have assumed that using the preamp, I can narrow down the difference to become even more subtle, if not disappear completely.
So, for me, even if it was in the Rs 15k price region, it is borderline decision. At Rs 89k, it is a no brainer.
Could I justify this by selling the Quad 99 preamp - there is no way I will get Rs 75k for it that it would take to bridge the gap, even though a new one goes for about Rs 90k now. Even if I could, I would hesitate. The Quad breaks down, I know Quad UK will fix it even years from now. This one breaks down after the warranty period, that the end of the story most likely.
Who may this make sense for, leaving price considerations apart?
Some one with either - or more likely a combination of the following:
1. Speakers with more range than mine, say that go down to a true 25-30 hz.
2. Room acoustics issues with consequent bass delivery.
3. Preference of music with aggressive and constant bass presence.
4. Preference of higher than normal sound levels for most listening.
5. Lots of listening happens from the sweet spot - in my case, my wandering around while music is playing and the usual things that happen in a lived in living room means that subtle differences of the kind I noticed don't matter in practice. For the test, I did tie myself down to the sweet spot though.
Even in a case where the above kind of circumstances apply, the price demands an extended at home audition.
Remember finally that there is nothing this box can do to extend the SQ limitation of your speakers. All it can do is the correct the room induced SQ degradation of the best your speaker can do. Once that is done, the constraint shifts back to the quality of your speakers.
PS: a sixth factor, recalling some comments else where on this site about my hearing. Even if I was born with golden ears, I am certain that age has taken them away. They still work perfectly well for enjoying life to the full, so for sure I am not going to take heed of a ludicrous suggestion that also has been made, of taking an audiogram test. But this aspect is certainly a factor that may affect another's assessment of the worth of the unit.
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Interesting experience and result. It would be very interesting to know how the performance of a similar or lesser spend on room treatment would compare. I suppose it isn't so easy to get a home demo.
(Off topic, re the hearing tests, and not meant as any kind of slur... sadly, they can be surprising. My last one was, and now know that I need eq to hear the higher frequencies at all. I also know that my pronouncements on gear quality, whilst good enough for my ears and my music, have to be taken with a pinch of salt. But hey, I still get into the conversation.)
(Off topic, re the hearing tests, and not meant as any kind of slur... sadly, they can be surprising. My last one was, and now know that I need eq to hear the higher frequencies at all. I also know that my pronouncements on gear quality, whilst good enough for my ears and my music, have to be taken with a pinch of salt. But hey, I still get into the conversation.)
In my case, I know the problem would be solved by simply pulling the speakers out into the room. Near field listening establishes that, because room resonances that reach the ears are drastically reduced.
For practical reasons I can't do that, so a combination of tone controls and brain magic takes care of the difference to an adequate degree.
And in this case, ability to hear HF is almost irrelevant in either the before or the after versions.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Yes, understood that this was working on lower frequencies. Sorry about the HF red herring. I'm probably sensitive about higher frequencies, because of my lack of sensitivity to high frequencies!
No worries. If you want to know your HF cutoff in less than a minute, go here:
Hearing Test - Can You Hear This?
PS: on this site, note this: Its fairly common for people who are over 25 years of age to not be able to hear above 15kHz
Where does this leave the digital audio discussion?!
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The hearing test linked above is obviously a quick and dirty dipstick kind of thing of course, but can be a useful indicator.
One of life's many ironies is that by the time one can afford high end, high frequency range audio systems, one has lost the ability to hear a lot of what they are able to deliver. And that audiophiles who listen to loud music for extended sessions end up in a worse hearing acuity place than those people - music listeners or not - that manage to stay protected from high sound levels.
One of life's many ironies is that by the time one can afford high end, high frequency range audio systems, one has lost the ability to hear a lot of what they are able to deliver. And that audiophiles who listen to loud music for extended sessions end up in a worse hearing acuity place than those people - music listeners or not - that manage to stay protected from high sound levels.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
For lots of tests of equipment, environment and ears, try Blind Listening Tests
It includes a quick and dirty DIY audiogram test, but, of course, for the real thing one has to go to an audiologist.
It includes a quick and dirty DIY audiogram test, but, of course, for the real thing one has to go to an audiologist.
Order your Rega Turntables & Amplifiers from HiFiMART.com - India's reputed online dealer.
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