Good systems deliver music, better systems engage you, great systems tell a story!

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The Good the Better and the Great - a guide on how to determine what your listening too.

This guide is based on my experiences. This forum has many esteemed members so of course people will disagree but overtime this is how I differentiate systems.
If it proves useful to you it will save you a lot of money spent on upgrades. And if not, it may make for an interesting read!

I thought of writing an article on how to judge a good system from a great one (better is in between). I have been in this hobby for a couple of decades and have experienced systems ranging from a humble Rs. 20,000 one to ones costing crazy amounts. The idea behind this article is that very often we are taken in by the
engineering behind a speaker or DAC and get taken in by that rather than by the music.

So how/ what makes a system good, better or great? (It isn't the price)

1. Good System:
A good system delivers music. It tries to stay neutral, tries to deliver what it can to the maximum without superimposing a strong character of its own. This is known as
errors of omission where it is better for a system not to deliver a particular frequency rather than trying to act smart and over deliver on say bass or treble.

A good system may deliver the respective frequencies, but may fail to engage you. It delivers highs, mids, low, soundstage, dynamics, detail, etc. I call this a technically right system. Long ago I heard a wilson benesch floorstander extensively (the entry level model). It was extremely controlled, didn't boom, was positioned well so it disappeared. But it didn't engage me. If I had to rank it based on treble, mid, bass, control etc. I would say it was perfect but it missed out on making me get involved with it.

Most systems fall into category 1. Again it doesn't depend on the brand but depends on how everything is brought together. On category 1 systems, some songs will sound ethereal but majority of songs will sound boring. We all have had a setup like this, where we will demo what sounds great on it when a friend is visiting but secretly we know it doesn't sound good on most CD's. I have heard flagship maggy's and flagship B&W's driven by flagship boulder monoblocks, driven by the flagship Audio research preamp and Ayre CD player all connected with transparent cabling in a properly designed room (not an audio show!) and I would classify it as category 1. Hence price has nothing to do with it.

However I have felt that this first category of systems do not connect with you. It lacks certain qualities that take it to the next level. So what are these qualities? Let us move on to see.

2. Better Systems:
Many years ago I was listening to Don Mclean 'Empty Chairs'. There is a part where a piano is being played on the right side of the soundstage. I have heard this track many times, but I heard it on a Mark Levinson preamp for the first time. It was driving a pair of Bryston monoblocks hooked to a Morel speaker. For the first time it felt as if someone was playing the piano, rather than a piano playing in the background. The decay between notes was present, it timed well, the image wasn't too large.

Welcome to the better system. What I was hearing were parameters like PRAT, micro detail, correct image size, space between the notes etc. It didn't matter whether the system extended from 20-20000Hz, something that the humble Morel bookshelf cannot do anyways. But what mattered was that it made me sit in front of the system and get engaged by the music rather than judging it. Nothing stood out nor did I feel it lacked anything.

A long time ago I was walking on the street in Boston and there was a homeless man sitting by a church. He was singing into a mike and was playing a guitar hooked up to a small speaker. I stood there and was amazed by how wonderful it sounded. This is what I mean by getting engaged. I didn't care for the bass or treble or anything. I was just walking by and heard something beautiful, stood there and was entertained. When I was a kid I learnt the piano. I would frantically try and focus on reading the notes right and my teacher always said focus on the timing and the space between the notes. That's what makes one a good piano player. I guess this is what she meant.

Money can buy a good system easily but only careful system matching (cables, tuning accessories) and tuning by ear can get these parameters. Sometimes one gets lucky as well and ends up with this system. So often one hears a small simple setup at a show and it connects with them compared to the big boy systems in the other room (Category 1).

If one get to this level I would suggest stop and enjoy it. It is very difficult to achieve this. Some companies try to deliver some of these parameters but usually they only deliver one or two parameters which become a flavour that is superimposed on everything you play through it. Naim delivers on PRAT, Marantz when it was owned by Philips delivered on a seductive midrange, Accuphase delivers resolution, etc.

If you dare and want to go to the final level then read on.

3. Great Systems:
Wow. So you decided to read on! Great systems deliver everything that Better Systems do and they go beyond category 2 parameters. When you listen to a song, you not only get engaged into it you also feel as if one is watching a movie or hearing a story. You get what the song is all about. You can hear the singers singing together, or singing off, or whether they were enjoying singing together or engaging in playful banter while they performed. You get the seriousness of the performance or whether it was a light hearted one or whether the singer was trying to impress the listener with a particular part of his/her voice. You can almost tell what mood the singer was in when this performance was made. Here the performance is delivered while the system just gets out of the way. Bass, treble, mids, soundstage, nothing matters anymore. I have heard this VERY few times and every single time I did the setup was driven by tubes with a tube output stage as well. I don't think it is a function of even order harmonics here but probably about the simplicity that some tube circuits are built with. Minimum parts, very high grade components, NOS tubes, high sensitivity speakers? I do not know the secret formula, but when you achieve this sound nothing else matters.

Well, I hope that this proves useful and if anyone has experienced something similar I would love to hear what they experienced and felt!
 
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Nice read. For me the mood matters the most regardless of what system you use. I used to listen to a lot of dire straits about 10 years ago, not so much anymore, not because of the system, but the phase is gone. I am listening more Indian classical music as it seems to be the phase. I have 3 different systems I simply turn one on and whatever music comes out gives me the joy of simply listening to music than listening to the bells and whistles.
 
Interesting read, but there is a popular term "To each his own" and it fits audio perfectly.
If from your long experience, tube gear is fulfilling to you, for me it is SS.
 
Interesting read, but there is a popular term "To each his own" and it fits audio perfectly.
If from your long experience, tube gear is fulfilling to you, for me it is SS.

This isn't a ss vs tube thread. You seemed to have missed the point of the article. It is not necessarily tubes that are needed. Probably a simple setup. Maybe pass labs smaller amps with single stage outputs may do the same. I have never heard them. The entire setup has to be in synergy. You can't have tubes driving a difficult load unless you have some big amps. At the same time having a 500w mono block driving a 100 dB speaker doesn't make sense.

Bottom line as per me is as long as one enjoys the music and not focus on trying to break it up into details one has achieved a fine setup. One can easily buy an active studio monitor for under a lakh and it will give you a full range sound with all the detail one could want. Would it engage them? I don't think so.

Idea of this article is that very often dealers send customers into a loop and one keeps spending hoping for the holy grail. I feel cheated when dealers and reviews give you hope and you never achieve what you spent your hard earned money on.
 
The Good the Better and the Great - a guide on how to determine what your listening too.

This guide is based on my experiences. This forum has many esteemed members so of course people will disagree but overtime this is how I differentiate systems.
If it proves useful to you it will save you a lot of money spent on upgrades. And if not, it may make for an interesting read!

I thought of writing an article on how to judge a good system from a great one (better is in between). I have been in this hobby for a couple of decades and have experienced systems ranging from a humble Rs. 20,000 one to ones costing crazy amounts. The idea behind this article is that very often we are taken in by the
engineering behind a speaker or DAC and get taken in by that rather than by the music.

So how/ what makes a system good, better or great? (It isn't the price)

1. Good System:
A good system delivers music. It tries to stay neutral, tries to deliver what it can to the maximum without superimposing a strong character of its own. This is known as
errors of omission where it is better for a system not to deliver a particular frequency rather than trying to act smart and over deliver on say bass or treble.

A good system may deliver the respective frequencies, but may fail to engage you. It delivers highs, mids, low, soundstage, dynamics, detail, etc. I call this a technically right system. Long ago I heard a wilson benesch floorstander extensively (the entry level model). It was extremely controlled, didn't boom, was positioned well so it disappeared. But it didn't engage me. If I had to rank it based on treble, mid, bass, control etc. I would say it was perfect but it missed out on making me get involved with it.

Most systems fall into category 1. Again it doesn't depend on the brand but depends on how everything is brought together. On category 1 systems, some songs will sound ethereal but majority of songs will sound boring. We all have had a setup like this, where we will demo what sounds great on it when a friend is visiting but secretly we know it doesn't sound good on most CD's. I have heard flagship maggy's and flagship B&W's driven by flagship boulder monoblocks, driven by the flagship Audio research preamp and Ayre CD player all connected with transparent cabling in a properly designed room (not an audio show!) and I would classify it as category 1. Hence price has nothing to do with it.

However I have felt that this first category of systems do not connect with you. It lacks certain qualities that take it to the next level. So what are these qualities? Let us move on to see.

2. Better Systems:
Many years ago I was listening to Don Mclean 'Empty Chairs'. There is a part where a piano is being played on the right side of the soundstage. I have heard this track many times, but I heard it on a Mark Levinson preamp for the first time. It was driving a pair of Bryston monoblocks hooked to a Morel speaker. For the first time it felt as if someone was playing the piano, rather than a piano playing in the background. The decay between notes was present, it timed well, the image wasn't too large.

Welcome to the better system. What I was hearing were parameters like PRAT, micro detail, correct image size, space between the notes etc. It didn't matter whether the system extended from 20-20000Hz, something that the humble Morel bookshelf cannot do anyways. But what mattered was that it made me sit in front of the system and get engaged by the music rather than judging it. Nothing stood out nor did I feel it lacked anything.

A long time ago I was walking on the street in Boston and there was a homeless man sitting by a church. He was singing into a mike and was playing a guitar hooked up to a small speaker. I stood there and was amazed by how wonderful it sounded. This is what I mean by getting engaged. I didn't care for the bass or treble or anything. I was just walking by and heard something beautiful, stood there and was entertained. When I was a kid I learnt the piano. I would frantically try and focus on reading the notes right and my teacher always said focus on the timing and the space between the notes. That's what makes one a good piano player. I guess this is what she meant.

Money can buy a good system easily but only careful system matching (cables, tuning accessories) and tuning by ear can get these parameters. Sometimes one gets lucky as well and ends up with this system. So often one hears a small simple setup at a show and it connects with them compared to the big boy systems in the other room (Category 1).

If one get to this level I would suggest stop and enjoy it. It is very difficult to achieve this. Some companies try to deliver some of these parameters but usually they only deliver one or two parameters which become a flavour that is superimposed on everything you play through it. Naim delivers on PRAT, Marantz when it was owned by Philips delivered on a seductive midrange, Accuphase delivers resolution, etc.

If you dare and want to go to the final level then read on.

3. Great Systems:
Wow. So you decided to read on! Great systems deliver everything that Better Systems do and they go beyond category 2 parameters. When you listen to a song, you not only get engaged into it you also feel as if one is watching a movie or hearing a story. You get what the song is all about. You can hear the singers singing together, or singing off, or whether they were enjoying singing together or engaging in playful banter while they performed. You get the seriousness of the performance or whether it was a light hearted one or whether the singer was trying to impress the listener with a particular part of his/her voice. You can almost tell what mood the singer was in when this performance was made. Here the performance is delivered while the system just gets out of the way. Bass, treble, mids, soundstage, nothing matters anymore. I have heard this VERY few times and every single time I did the setup was driven by tubes with a tube output stage as well. I don't think it is a function of even order harmonics here but probably about the simplicity that some tube circuits are built with. Minimum parts, very high grade components, NOS tubes, high sensitivity speakers? I do not know the secret formula, but when you achieve this sound nothing else matters.

Well, I hope that this proves useful and if anyone has experienced something similar I would love to hear what they experienced and felt!
I think most are in cat1 trying to find/build a good system and within a short time feeling some thing is lacking and trying to improve upon it by adding, upgrading etc. There seems to be no end to this. What actually matters is your state of mind/mood. They are people who seem to be enjoying in their music played through mobiles and no big system is required by them. It all boils down to your acceptance.
 
I did give it a detailed read and have not missed the point either, but you drifted away in the last few sentences.
that if why I said "To each his own"....it just summarized your entire article except the last few lines.
 
I think most are in cat1 trying to find/build a good system and within a short time feeling some thing is lacking and trying to improve upon it by adding, upgrading etc. There seems to be no end to this. What actually matters is your state of mind/mood. They are people who seem to be enjoying in their music played through mobiles and no big system is required by them. It all boils down to your acceptance.
Yes totally true about the mobile headphone thing. But when you spend you expect so...

I did give it a detailed read and have not missed the point either, but you drifted away in the last few sentences.
that if why I said "To each his own"....it just summarized your entire article except the last few lines.
OK sure. Point taken.
 
I believe we have certain tracks of music that we play and listen to all the time, almost repeatedly as they seem to have more emotional appeal to us individually. These pieces of music are like milestones in our lives intertwined with individual experience. These tracks bring back certain memories and enhance the listening experience. If the memory isn't there, music listening becomes analytical, where the quality of the sound takes precedence and not the emotion.
 
I believe we have certain tracks of music that we play and listen to all the time, almost repeatedly as they seem to have more emotional appeal to us individually. These pieces of music are like milestones in our lives intertwined with individual experience. These tracks bring back certain memories and enhance the listening experience. If the memory isn't there, music listening becomes analytical, where the quality of the sound takes precedence and not the emotion.
indeed and then it doesn't matter if its being played from the mobiles speakers or from a million dollar system after all music is not just bits and bytes but heart and soul
 
I believe we have certain tracks of music that we play and listen to all the time, almost repeatedly as they seem to have more emotional appeal to us individually. These pieces of music are like milestones in our lives intertwined with individual experience. These tracks bring back certain memories and enhance the listening experience. If the memory isn't there, music listening becomes analytical, where the quality of the sound takes precedence and not the emotion.
How wonderfully put! This is exactly the way it is! I had been listening to much of the music that I still do back when I was a teenager in college! Hearing those tracks transports me now and then back to those days, bringing back some memories of where you were when you first heard that track, who was with you and stuff like that.
Everything else just pales in comparison with that, I guess. Well said, Sir!
ckn
 
I have been buying drivers and doing DIY for quite some time now. IMO, we pay the money 50% for the hype surrounding the product, 40% for the brand name and the audiophile tag and only 10% for the actual value of the product. Others may choose to differ, but again i am fully ok with that.
 
Lovely read and a dream for many especially in India to even achieve Cat 1 in my opinion. For majority with limited budgets, even lesser availability, even lesser awareness, a Good Cat 1 system would be an achievement. Yes its difficult.

The Good the Better and the Great - a guide on how to determine what your listening too.

This guide is based on my experiences. This forum has many esteemed members so of course people will disagree but overtime this is how I differentiate systems.
If it proves useful to you it will save you a lot of money spent on upgrades. And if not, it may make for an interesting read!

I thought of writing an article on how to judge a good system from a great one (better is in between). I have been in this hobby for a couple of decades and have experienced systems ranging from a humble Rs. 20,000 one to ones costing crazy amounts. The idea behind this article is that very often we are taken in by the
engineering behind a speaker or DAC and get taken in by that rather than by the music.

Could you give examples in India where one can listen to Good Category 1 or even Category 2 systems? It would be an Education for many and a benchmark of sorts of what a system should be like? I believe if a system can change ones mood and make him enjoy, then thats a Good System.

BTW loved your style of writing, hope to see more articles from you.

MaSh
 
Could you give examples in India where one can listen to Good Category 1 or even Category 2 systems? It would be an Education for many and a benchmark of sorts of what a system should be like? I believe if a system can change ones mood and make him enjoy, then thats a Good System.

BTW loved your style of writing, hope to see more articles from you.

MaSh

Thanks. So for Category 1 most dealers with a decent room can deliver it if they do simple matching. For example NAD CD players, NAD amp, PSB will fit into category 1.

Same goes for say Arcam if one uses an Arcam CD player + Arcam amp and say a Dynaudio Emit for example. The important thing here is the room if you are at a dealer. If you demo it in a very large room or passage the sound just gets lost. Same is true if the room is very cluttered.

Money has nothing to do with cat 1 here. Even uber expensive setups can fall here.

The flaghsip Maggy/ B&W + Boulder monos + Audio Research pre + Ayre CD + Transparent cabling sounded like a category 1 setup to me. It didn't have any of the magic of Cat 2 let alone 3 systems. Every component used in that chain is supposed to be able to deliver magic but when they came together it just sounded like a technically right setup without any engagement at all.

Other Cat 1 setups:

Focal 1038 + Marantz PM11S1 amp + Accuphase 400 ish CD player

Wilson Benesch entry level floorstander + Unison research unico secondo amp + NAD M51 dac

Typically if you maintain the entire electronic chain from an entry level brand like say NAD, Marantz, etc. and pair them with a decent speaker you will hit cat 1. This is why I always advice new comers to try and stick with one brand in the electronic rather than try and buy all 5 star equipment from different brands. In the old days if you stuck with all Marantz you moved to cat 2 quite easily.

Other brands like Rega do have some magic in them but you really have to match them well to get then to sing and move to cat 2 or maybe even 3. Their amps for instance sound nice but have almost no power.

Category 2 is an art or luck. The dealer must know what he is doing and should have spent sometime with the setup. Sometimes they can hit it with luck. Most high end setups that maintain the same brand in the electronic chain will fall here. For example: all mark levinson, all simaudio, all accuphase etc. with decent cabling and decent speakers.

Cat 2 setups that I heard extensively (cannot own them all!):

Morel Octave Bookshelf + Bryston 7B ST mono + Mark Levinson Pre from the 1990's + Metronome CD player + some mid priced cables.

Focal Electra 1028 + Accuphase E450 with its integrated DAC

Focal Electra 1038 + Accuphase pre with dac + Halcro DM88 power. ( Showed glimpses of cat 3)

Dynaudio Emit 10 (setup away from the walls)+ Marantz 8005 + Creek CD

Morel Octave bookshelf + bryston 3B ST + Arcam Pre + Yamaha CD2000 (Setup I used many many years ago)

Monitor Audio GS60 (older gold with the dome tweeter) + YBA integrated amp (the cheapest one) + Arcam CD37 + Chord cabling

Dynaudio C4 + Halcro monoblocks + Halcro pre + Creek CD player (may have gone to cat 3 with a better source).

Monitor Audio Platinum PL300 I + bryston 7BSST mono + bryston pre + bryston CD (all bryston/ high end electronics - high chance of cat 2)

Tannoy Mercury bookshelf + an old Kenwood amp + old Sony CD player setup below a small stairwell.

Sonus Faber Serafino floorstander (Showed lot of promise) + Accuphase E470

Cat 3:

This is very difficult to get. The setup just locks in and even a single change in cable or positioning will alter the sound.
This setup is definitely coupled with the room it is hosted in very well. Then again when one hears a choir singing on the street it may connect without anything being a concern and hence it would still be category 3. Remember the homeless person in Boston? Definitely cat 3.

Focal 1028 + Accuphase E450 + Marantz 11S3 Cd player + Audience cabling

Audio Note Oto integrated single ended with NOS Telefunken in the pre + ANJ speakers + DAC 2 with stock tubes + AN cabling (review posted elsewhere)

Monitor Audio PL300 II (superb speaker if setup right)+ McIntosh 8000 integrated amp with phono + project extension 9 TT with Ortofon red cartiridge

Audio Note Oto phono integrated single ended with stock tubes + ANE speaker + AN TT2 turntable + AN cabling

Trenner & Friedl speakers (don't remember which) + Pass labs one box pre + some Italian KT88 based valve monoblocks + logitech streamer (the original one that was very good)

Decware SET tube integrated amp (don't remember the model)+ Decware matching speakers

I believe that simpler the setup the easier it will be to achieve cat 3.

Regarding headphones:

Yes, it is easier to achieve a higher cat using headphones. Headphones remove the room interaction which is a big factor as well. Plus it is a simpler setup (provided one doesnt make it complex). I am very happy with my iphone 7 plus + the 3.5mm adapter + my beyerdynamic IEM's (not the higher series). Headphones have their own limitations though.
 
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Beautiful. The write up really speaks what I thought. I found my calling too in a Zu Audio and Leben and I have never heard Kailash Kher like that ever. It communicates like no other , it really tells you about not just the music but the surroundings too like I heard in Allah ke bandeh. The system though expensive at Rs 4.7 Lacs but nothing compared to the likes of a Gryphon or Magico or Tidals or Vitus or mega million setups.
 
Right now I'm using a hybrid system , like a CayinTube Pre (mullard NOS CV series) and an Usher Solid State power with a low sensitivity Usher Speaker which is quite a different take from general. I seem to quite like it but then I loved the low watt tube and high sensitivity set up too. Torn!
 
Extensive write-up and exposure to setups. Again its brand, brand, brand and more brand.
Extensive write-up and exposure to setups. Again its brand, brand, brand and more brand.

Hari, I have no exposure to diy setups other than a simple ss headphone Amp I owned years ago which was cat 3 after extensive opamp tweaking. With time if a diy delivers consistently, it too will become a brand. Just look at rethm, kondo, decware. They all started with small humble setups but have turned into brands with time. Decware maintains a diy flavour where as kondo has become a rolls royce. Consistent performance from a particular company be it good or bad becomes a brand.
 
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Hari, I have no exposure to diy setups other than a simple ss headphone Amp I owned years ago which was cat 3 after extensive opamp tweaking. With time if a diy delivers consistently, it too will become a brand. Just look at rethm, kondo, decware. They all started with small humble setups but have turned into brands with time. Decware maintains a diy flavour where as kondo has become a rolls royce. Consistent performance from a particular company be it good or bad becomes a brand.
I am currently building a diy OB speaker which should be ready by this weekend. Since you are in Mumbai, it will be my pleasure to host you for a listen and categorize my diy product. Most products are diy in the chain, DIY DAC, DIY DCB1 pre-amp, DIY IC & Speaker cables. You too will get an exposure to other diy stuffs.
 
Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers in Red Mahogany finish at a Special Offer Price. BUY now before the price increase.
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