Help me choose the best 'natural sounding' speaker for orchestral classical...

[square_wave]

This is a brand you could look at.

Vienna Acoustics - high end speakers and loudspeakers for your home theatre

 

[Asit]

Hi Trinanjan,

Our respected and highly experienced members have given some very valuable suggestions on speakers. However, I still feel that since you are sort of beginning this journey and your experiences are hugely dominated by listening to headphones, you need to hear first as many speakers as possible which are far better than your wharfdales. This has no direct relation to your purchase. But what this will do is that this will give you valuable experience in terms of what you want in terms of good electronics and good speakers.

I posted today in the 'hifi journey' thread. While writing, I again realized how fortunate I was to have listened to many many very good systems well before I bought my first decent system and knew what sonics I wanted for the kind of music I listen to. I also developed a fair sense regarding matching of equipments. This is very important because you ideally want the whole system to sing in unison.

There are a fair number of audiophiles in Kolkata having various kinds of decent installations and there are also the stores, however good or bad they may be. You have to invite yourself to these places (I'm sure most will be very accommodative). This way you will have a fair idea of what's possible at what sort of budgets and you shall be in a better position to get fruits from all these excellent suggestions and build a system where every part will complement every other and will give you pleasure for many many years. I am sorry if I sound a bit patronizing (that is NOT the intention), but unless you hear a few reasonable installations, it is very difficult to have an idea.

Regards.

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

No, it wasn't a joke actually. Most well to do audio software stores are adding on 'stocking-fee' to the price of their western classical CDs as most of the stock actually has been sitting idle for almost half a decade! So, where are the buyers? Other genres are moving fast but classical is another story, hence this genre's section that's usually isolated in good stores away from other genres is getting smaller & smaller.

Cheers!!

:lol:

So many people at my workplace haven't heard the name of Mozart...

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

Hi Trinanjan,

Our respected and highly experienced members have given some very valuable suggestions on speakers. However, I still feel that since you are sort of beginning this journey and your experiences are hugely dominated by listening to headphones, you need to hear first as many speakers as possible which are far better than your wharfdales. This has no direct relation to your purchase. But what this will do is that this will give you valuable experience in terms of what you want in terms of good electronics and good speakers.

I posted today in the 'hifi journey' thread. While writing, I again realized how fortunate I was to have listened to many many very good systems well before I bought my first decent system and knew what sonics I wanted for the kind of music I listen to. I also developed a fair sense regarding matching of equipments. This is very important because you ideally want the whole system to sing in unison.

There are a fair number of audiophiles in Kolkata having various kinds of decent installations and there are also the stores, however good or bad they may be. You have to invite yourself to these places (I'm sure most will be very accommodative). This way you will have a fair idea of what's possible at what sort of budgets and you shall be in a better position to get fruits from all these excellent suggestions and build a system where every part will complement every other and will give you pleasure for many many years. I am sorry if I sound a bit patronizing (that is NOT the intention), but unless you hear a few reasonable installations, it is very difficult to have an idea.

Regards.

Thanks, Asit Da...

What speakers are you using now? Could you please update your profile...

 

[suri]

:lol:

So many people at my workplace haven't heard the name of Mozart...

but you must see this movie - "AMADEUS" - i guarantee it will move you

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086879/

 

[Asit]

Hi Trinanjan,

My speakers are a pair Canton Karat 60. These are 21 year old speakers, and are in fabulous condition. Unfortunately, you'd not find anything like this now. They are driven by my Leben CS300 tube amp, and the sources are CA 740c CDP and Nakamichi RX-505 cassette deck (my Dual TT is currently not operational).

You will get snapshots of my current set-up here http://www.hifivision.com/amplifier...-speakers-feasibility-study-49.html#post95203

If you look around, there are far better (even exotic) set-ups in Kolkata than mine. All I can say is that at the moment my set-up is matched and put up quite optimally and working together as a nice unit.

Regards.

 

[Dr.Bass]

This is a brand you could look at.

Vienna Acoustics - high end speakers and loudspeakers for your home theatre

Had heard them at Spore...nice but nothing to write home about.
They were more on the soft and romantic side.

I again realized how fortunate I was to have listened to many many very good systems well before I bought my first decent system and knew what sonics I wanted for the kind of music I listen to.

I couldnt agree more.
Asit, I just viewed your setup and those speakers look interesting. A serious vintage look. And those stands are looks superb.

 

[neo]

@Dr bass.
Which Glennair did you like the 10" or the 15"?
How much did they cost in singapore?
Also what was the cost of the mira & the atc's?
although it could be long list, which other speakers did you audition?
TIA
Cheers

 

[Asit]

I've heard the Glennair 10's in Kolkata driven by a Cadence amp. There was a similarity of these speakers with mine, but my speakers are cleaner and more open and natural sounding. Of course, the comparison is unfair because the amplification in my case now is totally different.

Regards.

 

[odyssey]

The Glenair with the Leben sounds fabulous - if you can listen to it, please do so

cheers

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

Hi,

It is interesting to note that so many audiophiles prefer tube amps. Don't tubes artificially enhance or colour the sound?

I have read elsewhere that the dryness of SS amps is due to dry and sterile sounding CD players.

Very few CD players have 'Vinyl' sound, due to all the digital to analogue conversion going on. (The output stage after the DAC is to blame for this dryness)

So, why don't we fix our sources first and stick to high end SS pre-power amps?

 

[Dr.Bass]

@Dr bass.
Which Glennair did you like the 10" or the 15"?
How much did they cost in singapore?
Also what was the cost of the mira & the atc's?
although it could be long list, which other speakers did you audition?
TIA
Cheers

Hi Neo,
I heard the 10" version driven by 3 different amps and 2 CDPs.
The amps were Cyrus Mono X, Marantz PM-11S2 and PM-15S2
The Cd players were Cyrus CD-8SE and Marantz SA7-S1
The cost was around 8500 Singapore Dollars. I was being offered the demo piece for 7000.
The Mira again cost 8500 Sing Dollars.
ATC SCM-11 : 2200
ATC SCM 19 : 3800
ATC SCM 40 : 6000

Well, I may not be able to list all the speakers with their respective model numbers as I do not remember all of them but I would try to list as I recollect:

1. Harbeth P3ES and SHL5
2. Spendors (all the models)
3. Cabasse
4. Focus Audio
5. Tannoy
6. Kef (Reference series)
7. Thiel
8. Living Voice
9. Rockport Technologies
10. Revel Audio
11. Xavian Audio
12. Opera Audio
13. Avant Garde
14. Avalon Acoustics
15. Neat Acoustics
16. Eminent Technologies
17. Dali (Helicon)
18. Dynaudio (Confidence and Evidence)
19. Proac (Response D2)
20. WLM Acoustics (LaScala)
21. Totem
22. Audium Comp
23. Wilson Benesch (Arc)
24. Vienna Acoustics
25. Isophon Audio (Germany)
26. Usher Audio
27: ATC

These are just the brands, I tried auditioning as many from each of these brands as possible except for those explicitly mentioned.
I do remember quite a few other speakers that I heard but dont remember their names because they were either too expensive or too big or I didnt care for their sonics.
I was there for 5 days. 10 AM to 7 PM, I was doing just this

 

[Asit]

Hi,

It is interesting to note that so many audiophiles prefer tube amps. Don't tubes artificially enhance or colour the sound?

I have read elsewhere that the dryness of SS amps is due to dry and sterile sounding CD players.

Very few CD players have 'Vinyl' sound, due to all the digital to analogue conversion going on. (The output stage after the DAC is to blame for this dryness)

So, why don't we fix our sources first and stick to high end SS pre-power amps?

Trinanjan,

There are bad tube amps and there are good tube amps, as there are bad SS amps and there are good SS amps. Yes, you are right, some tube amps would color the sound, make it warm and sugar-coat the music. Similarly there are too many harsh SS amps which in the name of details will make it clinical or unmusical. In addition, there can be SS amps which sound like tube amps, eg. Sugden class A amps. Cranky and Audio_engr were saying similar things about Cranky's newly built Pass Labs F5. On the other hand, my Leben tube amp is a very clean sounding, highly dynamic, lively amp, yet at the same time it has a very beautiful tonality that does not sound colored, and is very smooth and musical. It is particularly good with very complex music having many many performers and needing a wide soundstage, perfect 3D imaging and good separation of all the instruments and vocals. It does not roll off the top, and IMO has a very good and tight bottom end too (of course one has to pair it with the right speaker, and I am talking about bass produced only by natural instruments and vocals, not electronically, electronic music is not my domain). With my kind of music, I literally can feel the main soloist in the middle, and the supporting artistes around him and the electronics and the speakers literally vanish. Pratim (member pratimbayal) experienced this at my place, especially when he came after the speakers were mounted on those lovely stands built by Cranky and his friend.

There are other tube amps also, that may have these desirable traits. So I would say it depends on the implementation, and especially on the quality of the output transformers (1 per channel) that the tube power amp sections have.

Somehow I have a feeling that you will be perhaps happier with a SS amp though. But you need a clean and powerful one to deliver the huge dynamic range of Western classical music. Well, as I said, now for the third time, listen as much as possible, and you will know by yourself what your needs are.

Regards.

 

[suri]

Hi Neo,
I heard the 10" version driven by 3 different amps and 2 CDPs.
The amps were Cyrus Mono X, Marantz PM-11S2 and PM-15S2
The Cd players were Cyrus CD-8SE and Marantz SA7-S1
The cost was around 8500 Singapore Dollars. I was being offered the demo piece for 7000.
The Mira again cost 8500 Sing Dollars.
ATC SCM-11 : 2200
ATC SCM 19 : 3800
ATC SCM 40 : 6000

Well, I may not be able to list all the speakers with their respective model numbers as I do not remember all of them but I would try to list as I recollect:

1. Harbeth P3ES and SHL5
2. Spendors (all the models)
3. Cabasse
4. Focus Audio
5. Tannoy
6. Kef (Reference series)
7. Thiel
8. Living Voice
9. Rockport Technologies
10. Revel Audio
11. Xavian Audio
12. Opera Audio
13. Avant Garde
14. Avalon Acoustics
15. Neat Acoustics
16. Eminent Technologies
17. Dali (Helicon)
18. Dynaudio (Confidence and Evidence)
19. Proac (Response D2)
20. WLM Acoustics (LaScala)
21. Totem
22. Audium Comp
23. Wilson Benesch (Arc)
24. Vienna Acoustics
25. Isophon Audio (Germany)
26. Usher Audio
27: ATC

These are just the brands, I tried auditioning as many from each of these brands as possible except for those explicitly mentioned.
I do remember quite a few other speakers that I heard but dont remember their names because they were either too expensive or too big or I didnt care for their sonics.
I was there for 5 days. 10 AM to 7 PM, I was doing just this

hi Dr.Bass,

of those loudspeakers - which were the stand-out ones for you?

 

[Dr.Bass]

So, my dear friend, set out to audition speakers, taking your classical tracks with you and you'll soon have a small list of ones you like and the ones you don't. Till you go about doing this, no amount of discussion will help.

Good luck on your expedition!!

This is as true as the fact that the variety of speakers one gets to listen to even in a big city in India is extremely limited (except may be Mumbai). It is ironical :sad:.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hi Suri,
The ones I liked and gave multiple listens:
Tannoy Glenair,
Rockport Mira Monitor,
Living Voice (was nice but too big for my room)
WLM LaScala
Neat Acoustics,
Cabasse,
Opera Audio,
Dali Helicon 300 MK2,
ATC,
Avant Garde ($40000 ).

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

Hi Suri,
The ones I liked and gave multiple listens:
Tannoy Glenair,
Rockport Mira Monitor,
Living Voice (was nice but too big for my room)
WLM LaScala
Neat Acoustics,
Cabasse,
Opera Audio,
Dali Helicon 300 MK2,
ATC,
Avant Garde ($40000 ).

I am going to give the Dali a listen @ SKS Traders on Sunday... :yahoo:

 

[Asit]

This is as true as the fact that the variety of speakers one gets to listen to even in a big city in India is extremely limited (except may be Mumbai). It is ironical :sad:.

Very true, Dr. Bass. Actually Kolkata would be even far behind Mumbai, Bangalore and Chennai in this regard, even though officially there are dealers here for some big brands. But they do not get the stuff you'd like to audition. If you want to buy for sure, only then they'd get it for you. Last year when I wanted to audition amps at around 1L-1.5L lakh range, I could audition only 3 amps here in Kolkata, at the stores.

But listening to good equipments is essential before one undertakes a major project like you undertook (going to sgp and all). That's why I have been making a suggestion of our TS to go around and look for decent installations at people's homes, in addition to what he can manage at the stores here. Without this, one of two things usually happens: 1) One buys the first thing with the wow factor in sight, 2) One gets confused with so many options (no offence here, Trinanjan. I've seen very mature people making similar mistakes at times, including of course myself).

For example, Dr. Bass, if you did not have appreciable experience of hearing decent stuff already, I'd say you'd have been completely confused by all those speakers (what an effort though, I must say).

Now a bit more on the tube/SS and your genre (Westren Classical). This is not really my territory, this is an area for the experts, but nevertheless I'll go ahead and see if the experts take notice and say something to benefit my understanding.

The absolutely very best recordings (probably will cost you an enormous amount) of Western classical recordings may have a dynamic range of 25 db (is really a guess, can anybody confirm?). Usually found good recordings may have upto 15 db of dynamic range. Now to be able to swallow a dynamic range of that kind may not be easy for low-powered tube amps. I have not tested this with my system, because I do not have that much of good quality Western clssical on CD, I have a few though on vinyl and my TT is not working. I'd like to see how such a huge dynamic range is handled in my system. We have tried the Coaltrain, and it passed with distinction (most recently when Pratim came, no strains and absolutely smooth even at quite a high volume). This is the reason why I commented in my last post that perhaps a SS amp would suit the TS better, but to withstand such dynamic range, even the SS amp has to be great. I'd really like the experts to comment on what I have written above.

Well Trinanjan, you also said something about your current source, the CA 640c CDP. It's not my favorite in that price range. I myself own a CA (740c), but there is a day and night difference between these two. Yes, sources are very important. But take it up later as audio_engr suggested; first up: the speakers .

Regards.

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

My take on the 640C

Very true, Dr. Bass. Actually Kolkata would be even far behind Mumbai, Bangalore and Chennai in this regard, even though officially there are dealers here for some big brands. But they do not get the stuff you'd like to audition. If you want to buy for sure, only then they'd get it for you. Last year when I wanted to audition amps at around 1L-1.5L lakh range, I could audition only 3 amps here in Kolkata, at the stores.

But listening to good equipments is essential before one undertakes a major project like you undertook (going to sgp and all). That's why I have been making a suggestion of our TS to go around and look for decent installations at people's homes, in addition to what he can manage at the stores here. Without this, one of two things usually happens: 1) One buys the first thing with the wow factor in sight, 2) One gets confused with so many options (no offence here, Trinanjan. I've seen very mature people making similar mistakes at times, including of course myself).

For example, Dr. Bass, if you did not have appreciable experience of hearing decent stuff already, I'd say you'd have been completely confused by all those speakers (what an effort though, I must say).

Now a bit more on the tube/SS and your genre (Westren Classical). This is not really my territory, this is an area for the experts, but nevertheless I'll go ahead and see if the experts take notice and say something to benefit my understanding.

The absolutely very best recordings (probably will cost you an enormous amount) of Western classical recordings may have a dynamic range of 25 db (is really a guess, can anybody confirm?). Usually found good recordings may have upto 15 db of dynamic range. Now to be able to swallow a dynamic range of that kind may not be easy for low-powered tube amps. I have not tested this with my system, because I do not have that much of good quality Western clssical on CD, I have a few though on vinyl and my TT is not working. I'd like to see how such a huge dynamic range is handled in my system. We have tried the Coaltrain, and it passed with distinction (most recently when Pratim came, no strains and absolutely smooth even at quite a high volume). This is the reason why I commented in my last post that perhaps a SS amp would suit the TS better, but to withstand such dynamic range, even the SS amp has to be great. I'd really like the experts to comment on what I have written above.

Well Trinanjan, you also said something about your current source, the CA 640c CDP. It's not my favorite in that price range. I myself own a CA (740c), but there is a day and night difference between these two. Yes, sources are very important. But take it up later as audio_engr suggested; first up: the speakers .

Regards.

My evaluation of the Cambridge 640C is entirely based on what I hear through my K701 phones.

So, I do not know for sure whether the AKG or the Cambridge is at fault.

But the sonic flaw in my current chain is like this:

1. Although my listening setup is highly resolving, it suffers from a certain lack of tonal and timbral 'completeness'.

2. Piano, cymbal crashes, timpani, hall reverb all come through nicely; but the moment you listen to instruments with complex harmonics and sustained tone.. (read violins and clarinets) the shortcomings become evident.

3. There is a certain partial omission/recession of a spectrum of harmonics in the upper mid-range which sucks some of the ear-filling sweetness and fullness out of clarinets on some recordings. Mind you, this is not lack of warmth/midbass/bass.... just a sensation that some of the texture of the clarinet is missing... it sounds a little bleached and smaller than life, playing hide and seek with the strings where it should cut through sharply, prominently and cleanly. Just sounds a bit distant. The same issue happens with violins in certain songs; where the violin seems to be missing some harmonics and not integrating its wooden body resonance with the treble properly. That's how things are: the 640C/AKG combo seems to make instruments sound smaller than life... a slightly bleached 'red' in favour of a rosy saturated one..... slightly anorexic... :lol:

@Asit Da: Does my description of the 640C mirror yours?

 

[sidvee]

@ bhanja_trinanjan

As Asit has explained very well about the importance of listening to many systems and then yourself coming to some conclusions about your liking, I wish to stress that the speakers comes first - it is the closest component to your ears and a very critical item of the entire audio chain.

I unequivocally second this. Loudspeakers are the MOST important components of any music system. If you get the right speakers - which as all have mentioned will be by auditioning good setups - then IMHO a good part of your selection is done. Consequently the lions share of your budget should also be expended towards speakers. You can google on-line for various rec's on how much % should be dedicated to spkrs.
Cheers
Sid