Help with Subwoofer setting and placement

[gurujee]

Hello,

Recently got a Wharfedale D10 sealed subwoofer impulsively to improve low frequency extension of music. I was using a 6.5 inch ported Yamaha sub (from nsp20 HTIB package).

My complete setup previously -
Pioneer AVR 524, FS52 floor stander, Center and Surround Yamaha ns20 Satellites, 6.5 inch ported Yamaha sw50, Pioneer BDP 150, Signature Acoustic Bluetooth receiver

As I had recently written in other thread, the above setup was kind of OK for movies, but lacks the musicality for 2.0 stereo listening. The weak links were definitely the SUB and CENTER speaker in the chain, hence I went for the up-gradation of SUB first. Please pardon my ignorance as I ignored advice of others for going with a SUB that goes below what the FS52 floor-stander would go. As I had read a lot about the sealed subs being better for music and placement friendly, I adamantly went ahead and bought the Wharfedale D10 as per my budget.

I have followed the general suggestions for setting up the new SUB. Have set Phase to 0 and crossover to FULL on the sub's back. Volume is around 11am position.

I have re-calibrated the entire setup using mcacc auto room tuning of AVR. The AVR has set the crossover to 100hz; Front speakers as LARGE; Subwoofer presence as YES (there is another PLUS setting); and Sub level as +3

The low frequency presence with the above setting is however minimal. I have tried to set the crossover on AVR to 80hz; set the SUB as PLUS; tried to set Phase on the sub's back to 180. But there is no improvement in sound. What I am doing wrong ?

OR the subwoofer needs BURN-In ?
Or should I set the front speakers as SMALL?
Or the sub still needs to place at different places. (Placing at different places of room is not possible as I am a neat freak, don't want to run cables here and there, hence the reason for sealed SUB and not ported one)

Kindly advice

attaching my room dimension and objects diagram.

 

[MaSh]

Hey hi,

Congratulations on the new sub. Did you try No Center speaker?

1. All speakers Always Small.
2. Increase volume on subwoofer, so that receiver sets the sub gain to bare minimum, but not the end value. Eg. If -ve 12 is the minimum value then getting -ve11.5 would be golden (this is as per audyssey scale, pioneer should have similar). Idea is to send as clean a signal to sub as possible without any unnecessary gain.
3. Sub should be as close to perfect spot as possible using sub crawl method.

These three should give you a good platform to build up upon.

MaSh

 

[DB1989]

OR the subwoofer needs BURN-In ?

Leaving other things aside, subwoofers do require burn in. Both my subs required a good 4 hours minimum before they started sounding right and a good 20 hours or so before they achieved peak performance. Certain manufacturers recommend not to pump the volume up right out of the box. You can Check out the link below:

 

[drkrack]

Hello,

Recently got a Wharfedale D10 sealed subwoofer impulsively to improve low frequency extension of music. I was using a 6.5 inch ported Yamaha sub (from nsp20 HTIB package).

My complete setup previously -
Pioneer AVR 524, FS52 floor stander, Center and Surround Yamaha ns20 Satellites, 6.5 inch ported Yamaha sw50, Pioneer BDP 150, Signature Acoustic Bluetooth receiver

As I had recently written in other thread, the above setup was kind of OK for movies, but lacks the musicality for 2.0 stereo listening. The weak links were definitely the SUB and CENTER speaker in the chain, hence I went for the up-gradation of SUB first. Please pardon my ignorance as I ignored advice of others for going with a SUB that goes below what the FS52 floor-stander would go. As I had read a lot about the sealed subs being better for music and placement friendly, I adamantly went ahead and bought the Wharfedale D10 as per my budget.

I have followed the general suggestions for setting up the new SUB. Have set Phase to 0 and crossover to FULL on the sub's back. Volume is around 11am position.

I have re-calibrated the entire setup using mcacc auto room tuning of AVR. The AVR has set the crossover to 100hz; Front speakers as LARGE; Subwoofer presence as YES (there is another PLUS setting); and Sub level as +3

The low frequency presence with the above setting is however minimal. I have tried to set the crossover on AVR to 80hz; set the SUB as PLUS; tried to set Phase on the sub's back to 180. But there is no improvement in sound. What I am doing wrong ?

OR the subwoofer needs BURN-In ?
Or should I set the front speakers as SMALL?
Or the sub still needs to place at different places. (Placing at different places of room is not possible as I am a neat freak, don't want to run cables here and there, hence the reason for sealed SUB and not ported one)

Kindly advice

attaching my room dimension and objects diagram.

Thanks a lot for a very clear problem statement, with all required info, presented in a very organized way. It makes lot easier to suggest solutions.

1. What's the volume on the subwoofer? Subwoofers from Two Major brands Xtz & SVS don't Wake up till 70% on the volume Knob. It's when the amplifier reaches a optimal performance, so keep the sub volume to 70 - 80% (even higher without being limited by clipping or distortion) and reduce the gain in AVR. Keep it to 0db if you don't want to keep it in Negative.
2. The Subwoofer seems Small for your room, and not getting aided by adequate room gain. I'd suggest to try keeping it in Right Back Corner for Maximum room gain. I feel that's where your subwoofer should be loudest.
3. If there's a setting of Lfe plus; keep the bass at that.
Let's know your experience

 

[gurujee]

Thank you so much for the guidance. Every time I make a purchase I gain some knowledge from you guys. Really helpful.
From the last few years, I was using the FS52 as large and when set to Small, it was whole new experience. The clarity has increased, the midrange is now more open and high frequencies are more pronounced and smooth. Thank you so much.

Hey hi,

Congratulations on the new sub. Did you try No Center speaker?

1. All speakers Always Small.
2. Increase volume on subwoofer, so that receiver sets the sub gain to bare minimum, but not the end value. Eg. If -ve 12 is the minimum value then getting -ve11.5 would be golden (this is as per audyssey scale, pioneer should have similar). Idea is to send as clean a signal to sub as possible without any unnecessary gain.
3. Sub should be as close to perfect spot as possible using sub crawl method.

These three should give you a good platform to build up upon.

MaSh

 

[gurujee]

Thank you very much for the link and experience. The burn-in is all I wanted. The sub has now opened up and sound delicious. I tried to run the sub with random jazz songs everyday for few hours. After good 100/200 hours I think the sound improved a lot. Thank you so much.

Leaving other things aside, subwoofers do require burn in. Both my subs required a good 4 hours minimum before they started sounding right and a good 20 hours or so before they achieved peak performance. Certain manufacturers recommend not to pump the volume up right out of the box. You can Check out the link below:

 

[gurujee]

After the burn-in, I followed both yours and @MaSh advice. It is now set at almost 70/80% on sub, -7db on AVR (set by auto room correction), Crossover on AVR at 80 (set by me manually).

Your suggested sub position is actually the right one after the sub crawl. It sounds loudest at the Left Back Corner but smooth at Right back corner. However, due to furniture and space issue, I have placed it at front right as in diagram. After burn-in, it sounds well integrated for most music genres, except songs with rhythms, drums, beats. The bed in front of the sub obstructing the sound to reach the main listening position, I guess. I am thinking to elevate the sub by placing on a wooden tool or Subwoofer Isolation stuff like these.

The phase is 180 though. Some suggests that if the sub is placed at front then it should be set at 0 and 180 if placed at back. But I don't know why I like the sound of setting it 180 with front placement.

One more thing that changed now is - the speakers seem to sound a little brighter after setting as small and crossover at 80 (previously it was at 100). I am feeling some fatigue after a hour or two of continuous listening.

My observation regarding the sealed Wharfedale D10

This is the kind of low frequency I wanted in my songs. It is very musical quite opposite of what I had in the Yamaha. Of course, the 6.5 inch ported Yamaha was better in movies. Will soon get separate setup for movie and stereo. Thank you, guys. )

Thanks a lot for a very clear problem statement, with all required info, presented in a very organized way. It makes lot easier to suggest solutions.

1. What's the volume on the subwoofer? Subwoofers from Two Major brands Xtz & SVS don't Wake up till 70% on the volume Knob. It's when the amplifier reaches a optimal performance, so keep the sub volume to 70 - 80% (even higher without being limited by clipping or distortion) and reduce the gain in AVR. Keep it to 0db if you don't want to keep it in Negative.
2. The Subwoofer seems Small for your room, and not getting aided by adequate room gain. I'd suggest to try keeping it in Right Back Corner for Maximum room gain. I feel that's where your subwoofer should be loudest.
3. If there's a setting of Lfe plus; keep the bass at that.
Let's know your experience

 

[delhite2]

After the burn-in, I followed both yours and @MaSh advice. It is now set at almost 70/80% on sub, -7db on AVR (set by auto room correction), Crossover on AVR at 80 (set by me manually).

Your suggested sub position is actually the right one after the sub crawl. It sounds loudest at the Left Back Corner but smooth at Right back corner. However, due to furniture and space issue, I have placed it at front right as in diagram. After burn-in, it sounds well integrated for most music genres, except songs with rhythms, drums, beats. The bed in front of the sub obstructing the sound to reach the main listening position, I guess. I am thinking to elevate the sub by placing on a wooden tool or Subwoofer Isolation stuff like these.

The phase is 180 though. Some suggests that if the sub is placed at front then it should be set at 0 and 180 if placed at back. But I don't know why I like the sound of setting it 180 with front placement.

One more thing that changed now is - the speakers seem to sound a little brighter after setting as small and crossover at 80 (previously it was at 100). I am feeling some fatigue after a hour or two of continuous listening.

My observation regarding the sealed Wharfedale D10

This is the kind of low frequency I wanted in my songs. It is very musical quite opposite of what I had in the Yamaha. Of course, the 6.5 inch ported Yamaha was better in movies. Will soon get separate setup for movie and stereo. Thank you, guys. )

I am glad you got it working but kindly bear and I cannot stress the importance of this, try to bring phase back to 0 degrees and play with distance setting to integrate the subwoofer, the overall result will be much better, Phase essentially does something similar but the shift varies with frequency which can hamper the overall net result, whenever possible avoid phase and prefer time/distance setting.
The sole reason you like the sound with 180 degrees is because the distance setting set by the auto calibration is off, I have usually found that the correct distance setting for subwoofer is atleast 1m/3ft more than actual distance and in some cases upto 2.5m/8ft more than actual distance, this takes into account the fact that the front speakers are set with actual distances too.

Once you find the right distance setting you would instantly realise a big difference in integration of the subwoofer & if done precisely you can actually remove the crossover altogether from fronts and enjoy more bass from both towers & subs (I.e., if u r willing to compromise a bit on better mids and treble)
PS: location of a subwoofer does not tell us the required phase setting, as in keeping front with 0/180 etc.

 

[gurujee]

I am glad you got it working but kindly bear and I cannot stress the importance of this, try to bring phase back to 0 degrees and play with distance setting to integrate the subwoofer, the overall result will be much better, Phase essentially does something similar but the shift varies with frequency which can hamper the overall net result, whenever possible avoid phase and prefer time/distance setting.
The sole reason you like the sound with 180 degrees is because the distance setting set by the auto calibration is off, I have usually found that the correct distance setting for subwoofer is atleast 1m/3ft more than actual distance and in some cases upto 2.5m/8ft more than actual distance, this takes into account the fact that the front speakers are set with actual distances too.

Once you find the right distance setting you would instantly realise a big difference in integration of the subwoofer & if done precisely you can actually remove the crossover altogether from fronts and enjoy more bass from both towers & subs (I.e., if u r willing to compromise a bit on better mids and treble)
PS: location of a subwoofer does not tell us the required phase setting, as in keeping front with 0/180 etc.

Thanks a ton . I will do that and revert back.