Hi Fi Loudspeakers - The Economics of Cost Cutting

Audioholics is a great site for telling it how it is --- even when that is not what we want to hear.

Not only is this a really good article, but it is part of a whole suit of articles on the subject of speakers. there is a lot of reading there.
 
Yes, it really seems to be the only way to go to get value for money.

Or, perhaps fairer to say better value for money. Leaving aside the companies where the cash just pays for marketing men and lies, it is a simple fact of life that manufacturers and those in the sales chain need to make a living, and we can't blame the honest ones for that.

Anyway, I read the article in Hari's link, and just started the one on cabinets. Hope to finish that tonight. Hope not to encounter too much maths :o! But, as the first article says, the price to pay is getting some understanding of the maths and physics of sound.

Audioholics is one of the best audio/hifi sites for no-bull info. Either directly, or through links to other stuff, it has helped to set right, or at least put into doubt, a few of my assumptions. It is not necessarily a comfortable process: not for the faint-hearted!
 
I have been a member of the audioholics forum for almost 3 years now and read all their articles on a regular basis.

Their articles on "CABLE SNAKE OILS" and their "OLDER AVR vs NEWER AVRs WITH LESS QUALITY and less AMPLIFIER POWER AND BUILD" is almost a gospel thread on how newer amplifiers/AVRs are manufactured with more features and much less build quality.

I have been a fan of all their threads/reviews/articles. Their authors also admit their mistakes which is most enlighting.

In fact their site link is the first one in my Mozilla browser!

Here is the cable myth article link:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-and-audio-interconnects

Here is the page on all major amplifier/AVR ones:

It is a veritable gold mine for all AVR/amplifier wannabes:

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier
Vinod
 
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one way of looking at it - is like most
what is the sum of the parts inside the spekaer , what is the build quality etc etc
and then people go and say arre its not worth it

i dont look at it like that

speaker sounds better - ???
thats it
he is justified in demanding more - whatever the build quality or whatever the drivers

if everyone goes by the sum of parts
you are always gonna be disappointed

whatever you say to bose
he was the the first ones to mass market " enveloping sound" through satellites
i salute him
 
Yep! Completely agree with magma. The sound of a speaker is not the sum of parts. A well designed peerless based speaker will beat a badly designed scanspeak with the finest of parts.

One should look at the whole picture - how the speaker sounds. Sometimes a cheaper part might simply work better in a particular configuration than a much more expensive part. It is not just speaker components - all of high end audio works the same way.
 
Do all apples cost the same? Why do some command a premium??
Most of the big names have evolved,researched& perfected a product after loads of man hours & hard work. It's way more than a few months. So therein comes the premium & if it sound better than the rest so be it.
Most Diy guys are just trying to pat them selves on the back( I'm learning to tweak & I'm no different) reading on the internet & following/copying doesn't make us experts.If you ever go listen to loads of diy stuff you'll be highly disappointed. Serial diy guys also wate a lot of money on components & way behind in the level of finish.
Cheers
 
A well designed peerless based speaker will beat a badly designed scanspeak with the finest of parts.
Click to expand...
but both will still be the sum of the parts, surely?

Same drivers, different box, different sound? Same box, different drivers, different sound?

Also it is not really saying that any of this is wrong. Economic facts are what they are. As I said before, people have to make a living. But it is about being aware of where the money goes.

I gave two examples which I suspect (I'm no speaker expert) would lead to different sound. How about the things that would not change the sound, but could well change the price:

eg.

Same drivers, same box, different veneer.

Same drivers, same box, full-page ads in the major hifi mags.

It's about how the system works, and how, if we are informed and clever, we might make it work better for us.
 
I try to do something always.

I am NOT a DIY guy, so DIY is not the route for me. I neither have the skills nor the know how to do something on my own, even buying parts and fixing them. Here is why hats off to guys like Hari Iyer.

Now coming back to my points,

1) I always prefer to buy just when the model is going out. It can be about AMPS/AVRs, speakers or any other electronics etc.

2) The reason is during this time the model is heavily discounted as it is about to be phased out. New models are about to be in. The marketing/sales/company guys are not bothered as to whether it is a good model or not. They have to en-cash their old cardboard boxes. So benefit for the customers.

3) By this time, the model has customer reviews as to its pros and cons. We know well its pros and cons when we actually buy it.

4) At least some part of the dealer/company margin is offset as the model is old.

5) We have to be aware that there is a danger of demo pieces/used pieces being sold to us. But if you are aware of it, you can bargain more for the same.

6) Never be "latest model" crazy, a few months/days down the line, your model is going to become an old model.

My point is that for companies cost cutting on our products, this is another way to get back at them.

Sorry for my rant guys. I hope I make sense.

Vinod
 
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Cost cutting is a reality of course, people are in business to make a profit not serve the musical desires of the masses. That just happens to be one way to do business and make said profit.

That said parts do make a difference, but design is very important as is the room. To assume one can use equipment that is good in an untreated room without DSP and achieve good sound is delusion.

Expensive parts are not necessarily better, I view equipment as tools and the question is which tool does the job better, not which one costs more so as to give the impression of quality though it is the incorrect tool for the job. An obvious example is trying to get 20Hz out of a dome tweeter.

At this point must ask how is "better" defined, subjective tastes vary and someone who prefers soft female vocals and guitars at 90db at the listening position will likely prefer a different frequency response than someone who listens to rap at 120db. The human ear behaves differently at different SPL levels and every one has different hearing and tastes as to what sounds "good". At 90db some extra/flatter top end would be perceived as crispness,detail and realism while at 120db this extra/flatter top end would only serve to hurt our ears and pretty much everyone would want it turned down unless you have severe hearing loss up top.

Measurements answer the objective question as far as the current state of science allows but I do question if all the pertinent information is being measured and more importantly correlated to the subjective experience, Harman does research into this but reading their documentation I feel like it has an agenda and frankly I don't trust Harman. For example people often measure sound pressure, but the velocity of sound intensity is often ignored. One only needs to stand right in front of a stack of subs outdoors and then at a distance at the same SPL and response at levels that are within the linear envelope of the sub system to understand the subjective difference of what we perceive on our bodies. I am not quite certain but I believe this is the effect of the higher velocity in the "near field".

Science is the answer but we have ways to go. Our hearing is complex and once we are fully able to understand how that works and correlates to subjectivity we will have better equipment. Needless to say I don't subscribe to home audio brands which are over priced and under performing, professional equipment does not usually need to spend as much on marketing or support. They also need not worry about expensive finishes and as a result they are able to focus on actual performance for a reasonable cost. Further to this the professional market understands data, the domestic market understands perceived branding and the average buyer has no knowledge of the science of sound nor the inclination to learn about the science so the expensive, branded item is the better one as it looks good and their friends/relatives will commend them on their purchase and the owner shall hope that these friends/relatives shall walk away with a touch of envy. I don't see this changing.

Such is reality.
 
The critical facts that most people forget in these discussions are about expertise and motivation of these manufacturers. That is the key rather than cost of components.

Serious designers have a personal reputation to nurture and most likely it will result in a better product. Most mass manufacturers have business agendas which will impose a certain approach to the design of the product. This is a general rule but there are often brilliant exceptions too.
 
Shivam said:
Hard facts !!!

That is the reason why I have deep respect for the products made by DIY people here in the forum.
Click to expand...

Thad E Ginathom said:
Yes, it really seems to be the only way to go to get value for money.

Or, perhaps fairer to say better value for money. Leaving aside the companies where the cash just pays for marketing men and lies, it is a simple fact of life that manufacturers and those in the sales chain need to make a living, and we can't blame the honest ones for that.
Click to expand...

Thad E Ginathom said:
but both will still be the sum of the parts, surely?

Same drivers, different box, different sound? Same box, different drivers, different sound?

Also it is not really saying that any of this is wrong. Economic facts are what they are. As I said before, people have to make a living. But it is about being aware of where the money goes.

I gave two examples which I suspect (I'm no speaker expert) would lead to different sound. How about the things that would not change the sound, but could well change the price:

eg.

Same drivers, same box, different veneer.

Same drivers, same box, full-page ads in the major hifi mags.

It's about how the system works, and how, if we are informed and clever, we might make it work better for us.
Click to expand...

I'm a strong believer that a professional is always best suited for the job.

I cannot cook, not even a cup of tea. It's the wife who takes care of it, and if she's not there then my mother, and if she's not there then my sister, and if she's not there then the maid, and finally even if she's not in the picture I'll probably resort to asking the neighbors (bad idea) or visit a hotel.

I also would hate for my boss to do my job or an absolute newcomer doing what I can do I would no longer be in a position to command the premium that I currently do.

Also, experience matters. Even if an absolute newcomer fresh out of training can do the job as well as a 30-year-old veteran on-the-job, we still don't treat them the same or fire the veteran to save on salary costs at least not if the business wants to stay in business.

Thad, I believe you are a Carnatic music fan. I'm sure the same holds true there too, a professional or an experienced musician will (and should) command a premium. Now a newcomer (who has received years of training) may sing as well or even better than the existing experienced musicians, that still does not mean we discount the years of experience of the professionals. I would not believe that a newcomer giving his or her 1st performance would ask the same remuneration as someone giving their 500th performance, even if both singers sounded the same and were a match note for note. We are paying for their name (and fame) right? So why not for speaker brands?

Finally, most DIYers go that route to save on costs or as a hobby. Now hobby I can understand, but if money was not a limitation then how many would even consider DIY? How many of us if we had the money for a Mercedes would buy a Maruti? That does not make Maruti a bad car nor does the Benz do something extra both take the same route and travel from point A to point B. However, that does not mean a Mercedes stops commanding its premium or those with money stop buying it. Now some may argue a Mercedes performs better than a Maruti, but that can be taken away easily from the Mercedes or a Maruti can be souped up to perform the same as a Mercedes. That will still not make people choose a Maruti over a Mercedes.

Now if there are Mercedes Benzes in the audiophile world then so be it, even if an ordinary speaker can match it note for note. Now I don't believe a dCS Scarlatti sounds better than anything else on the market maybe it does (in which case I'm wrong), but either way it still sells.

PS - I have not gone through the OP's link though I intend to when I have the time. Now I understand there will always be a Lexicon selling an Oppo for a premium, but that's not the case for every expensive speaker brand as it is being made out to be.

Proof in the pudding... ask any of the DIYers here to build you a speaker at component costs and see how many of them will really do it and for how many FMs will they do it? I guarantee you that most of them will add a premium even to their DIY speakers and sell them, even to their HFV brethern and FMs. That should really answer the question who does not love money or who are not in it for the money.
 
Vinod, I don't see that as a rant, but very practical ideas about how we can do the best in a hard world. Last year's model (and if it sounded good last year, it still sounds good this year!) and ex-demo (if the dealer is honest and offers a proper discount, along with warranty) is the way I bought my more expensive things in the past.

Can a non-professional compete with a professional? Yes, certainly. Obviously, skills have to be acquired and practised, but having done so (and look at some of our DIYers' products!), they can put time, effort and materials into their work that would be commercially entirely unrealistic.

But there are numerous aspects to this article. Just one of them is the value for money of DIY. Another is understanding where the money goes when we buy off the shelf, which most of us here probably do, and will continue to do.

My maths/physics is lousy, and even if I followed a proven design, my woodwork is about as good as my electronics. I'm not the only one. The dealers are going to have customers for a while yet!
 
Thad E Ginathom said:
Vinod, I don't see that as a rant, but very practical ideas about how we can do the best in a hard world. Last year's model (and if it sounded good last year, it still sounds good this year!) and ex-demo (if the dealer is honest and offers a proper discount, along with warranty) is the way I bought my more expensive things in the past.

Can a non-professional compete with a professional? Yes, certainly. Obviously, skills have to be acquired and practised, but having done so (and look at some of our DIYers' products!), they can put time, effort and materials into their work that would be commercially entirely unrealistic.

But there are numerous aspects to this article. Just one of them is the value for money of DIY. Another is understanding where the money goes when we buy off the shelf, which most of us here probably do, and will continue to do.

My maths/physics is lousy, and even if I followed a proven design, my woodwork is about as good as my electronics. I'm not the only one. The dealers are going to have customers for a while yet!
Click to expand...

Thanks Thad,

I bought my Denon AVR 3803 used at Rs 40,000!!! Can you believe that? It was going for about Rs 50,000 used. MRP at that time was Rs 89,000. Speakers I bought showroom display and demo. Lovely speakers. Nobody would say they were demo/display. No issues with the drivers at all. Only cosmetic blemishes. Touch wood everything is fine.

Let us take loudspeaker making both the DIY and commercial route to see where the cost goes. Please add on any as you deem fit:

Commercial Speakers:

1) Designing in house or outsourced cost.
2) Cost of planning of the actual speaker.
3) Cost budgeting. (What type of parts to use etc .)
4) Cost versus profit ratio per speaker.
5) Shipping costs to the retailer/direct customer.
6) Company/Middle man/dealer margins.
7) Packaging, cartons and shipping costs.
8) Warranty claims and speaker return costs.
9) Advertisement costs.
10) Spares maintenance costs of speakers for servicing issues.
11) Personnel costs.
12) Distribution of profits between different stages of production cost.
13) New Research costs.

Assuming a basic DIY approach:

DIY Speakers

1) Parts costs.
2) Shipping of parts costs to the DIY person.
3) Speaker building costs.
4) Basic design costs (If it is someones design or if it is a completely DIY design).
5) Design failure costs as it adds on to future building costs.
6) Finish costs.
7) Usually carton costs are not involved unless being shipped to someone else after a DIY is build.
8) Trial and error costs.

I hope that I have covered most of it. Guys, you are most welcome to add on to it.
 
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DIY sometimes can be more expensive than buying off the shelf as you have to account for many failed attempt too. Also there is plenty to invest in measurement equipments too if you are serious about the build. Buying a off-the shelf design is a bad idea as there can be many parameters verying between the standards and actual. Each of the drivers needs to be actually measured before the cross-over is designed. How many DIYers actually measure the drivers or even have the facility to measure them. There can be around 25% to 30% difference in Fs, Qts and Vas parameters of a woofer from the datasheet and the driver. Hence off the shelf do not work. Published design by an speaker expert is the same case as an DIYer. So also less expensiver product due to their poor QC/QA procedure. Tolereance of drivers can be high and cross-over components can be more than 15% to 20% difference. In DIY if you have the tool then you can achive close to 1% tolereance if you have the time and money to do it. But in branded products only the very high-end can achive 1% tolerance of components.
 
Agree with Hari.

Wanted to add:
There are some extremely talented people who do very high end DIY because that is the only way they can attain what they want in the design. It is not possible get many of the things that one desires from an off the shelf product due to multifarious aspects related to practicality and commercial.
 
Hari Iyer said:
DIY sometimes can be more expensive than buying off the shelf as you have to account for many failed attempt too. Also there is plenty to invest in measurement equipments too if you are serious about the build.
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Well said. Fully agree.

Hari Iyer said:
There can be around 25% to 30% difference in Fs, Qts and Vas parameters of a woofer from the datasheet and the driver.

Tolereance of drivers can be high and cross-over components can be more than 15% to 20% difference.

But in branded products only the very high-end can achive 1% tolerance of components.
Click to expand...

If this is the case, most of the mid end speakers vary widely in their performances. No two speakers would sound the same.:eek:

But is that the case?:confused:
 
captrajesh said:
If this is the case, most of the mid end speakers vary widely in their performances. No two speakers would sound the same.:eek:

But is that the case?:confused:
Click to expand...

I am confused too.
Either manufacturers put extraordinary efforts to curb the differences or slight differences are being blown up in this thread.

I do identify mid range speakers and assign characteristics to them. it would not be possible if the per driver deviation is in the order of claimed figures.

Heck even the right and left speakers will not sound the same to create the sound stage which clearly is not the case.
 
I have a pertinent question.

How many of us when we go to a shop demo, take the demo of the same model with different serial numbers?

I mean the same model but different serial numbers to see if there is any difference?

We usually assume all the same models must sound the same even if they are different serial numbers!

I will give my reasoning in the next post as to why I asked this question and how it is relevant to the discussion now.
 
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