I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment with an

Rajiv

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Hi,

A very interesting article,that I agree with 100%.

Its funny you know, but the musicality (the quality of being musical or melodious) of those old vacuum tube stereos, LPs, and radios of my youth was often quite good. It isnt just my Golden Age nostalgia kicking in thats making me say that either, as those Golden Era Hi-Fi designers had a really good feel for what music reproduction should sound like to be emotionally engaging, and they had a knack for making electronics within the limitations of the technology of their day that would emotionally engage listeners in the music.

I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment with an ear to musicality because that was how all humans related to music up until that point in history. They made records and designed electronics that made you tap your foot, smile, and just generally enjoy the music that was playing because thats how people expected the experience of listening to music to affect them. As a result, the playback of recorded music over their designs evoked an emotional response in much the same way as live music did, which was humanitys musical reference for all of human history up to that point.

We are in exciting times! High-performance audio is coming full circle back to emphasizing musical involvement over sonics as awareness of the influence of the sound barrier to musical satisfaction is growing. Hi-Fi enthusiasts, a few audio writers, and a few manufacturers are nudging the hobby back in the direction of musicality, where music and Hi-Fi has its roots.

Not a moment too soon.:)

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3126

Regards
Rajiv
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

I think we have experienced some of it from our vintage systems.

Cheers.
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

I like the article even though i don't agree with it 100%.... More like 99%...

See, for me musicality is first... but the bigger question is: Does one really have to sacrifice musicality for Detail, Dynamics, PRAT, Soundstage etc???

Methinks, no!

My quest has always been to find a good marriage between the two ideologies... And I think, I have got it in my set up now!

So, for me that debate about musicality vs hifi'ish sound really don't exist!
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

I agree with Rajiv 100%. A 100% vintage music system playing from a analogue source gets me so emotionally moved . I cannot get this from any modern system however expensive it is! It is the same with old songs of the 60's and 70's. They were composed and tuned from the heart and that's why they are evergreens. My conclusion is that whatever is from the heart is there to stay whether it is musical equipment, music systems or the songs itself.
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

today music itself is made in small parts and then joined together in the recording studio..how can there be a soul to body parts put together :(
all you get are tunes which one can hum for a few days and then forgotten..which is what all new music are ending up as
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

There are three types of audio gear these days.

- Ones that are clearly designed to make people go on a merry go round of upgrades
- Ones that are designed to put that music in your hearts
- Bad audio gear designed by college kids in white uniforms

I firmly believe that while vintage folks used to design gear with their heart, it is not technology that takes away musicality from many designs these days. It is the intent and focus. There are many designers even now who makes musicality their first and foremost focus. However, if you look audiophile populace, the camps are very easy to demarcate. You can clearly see where they come from. It is only natural that manufacturers take advantage of these diverse demographics.
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

square_wave this brought to mind the famous challenge given to Bob Carver. For those who don't know - long story made short: Bob took up the challenge from Stereophile Magazine and went about fine tuning one of his amp designs until he pretty much matched the sound of the CJ Premier 5s. Basically a then $700 amp equaling what was then a $12,000 amp.

It brings up questions if amp mfrs really know how to make a particular sounding amp. Conrad Johnson had probably put in a lot of work to get their amp to sound a particular way but once Carver was shown that particular sound he matched it and went on to make some great amps based on that sound concept. Carver's genius was in using some nifty methods to reverse engineer the amp but still it was pretty controversial at the time For example did that particular sound signature belong to CJ?

Sorry if this is a tangent but I thought it would be interesting ...
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

Oh my god.
Now I realize why human beings always talk about "good old days".
And now I realize why and how human beings love being "swindled" ...
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

I dunno, but a lot of modern equipment is miles ahead of what we used to put up with long ago. I agree using a record player or tape deck is fun, but as a primary means of entertainment, my phone or my laptop is miles ahead even while playing a 128kbps mp3.
Even for amps, if you go off the beaten track, and most mass market amps, am sure there is something that would sound just as good.
I think this is just a wave of nostalgia or novelty. Welcome to the Audio hipster crowd. But seriously, we were using this stuff before it was cool - and it wasn't all that great.

Cognitive dissonance, post purchase rationalization, Ikea effect - a lot of names or manifestations of what it is that makes us behave like this :)
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

I dunno, but a lot of modern equipment is miles ahead of what we used to put up with long ago. ..

very true..the content also seems to have gone sour ..how many recording engineers want to retain the core of the music vs getting imaging/separation and pumped up bass and treble :(

Theoretically the components of today are far more resolving. but there could be point that even the technical knowledge /skills available for the designers might just be aiming for better specs than for getting the music right .
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

IMHO the difference basically is that earlier, mastering by recording engineers used to be done based on the assumption that the listening had a decent reasonably smooth sounding system with good dynamic range.

These days on the other hand, mastering seems to be done with the assumption that the music is gonna be heard on really poor earbuds and cheap laptop speakers which results in the recording engineer artificially boosting certain frequency ranges. While this might help the tinny earbuds packaged with mp3 players and the lousy laptop speakers, on a resolving system such mastering sounds like junk. Also much of this is also because of the loudness wars that almost all popular music seems to indulge in.
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

Theoretically the components of today are far more resolving. but there could be point that even the technical knowledge /skills available for the designers might just be aiming for better specs than for getting the music right .

I had some time started a thread regarding the importance of purely a technical and mathematical approach to equipment design, versus an approach with an informed view of music and its nuances along with the technicality. The core question was how important is it for a designer to understand the music his equipment is supposed to produce to impart the sense of musicality.

I think many of the audio equipment is nowadays with the cold and mathematical precision of any other engineering design, leaving the soul of the music behind.
Of course, I am sure there are views which regard music reproduced in a system as nothing more than an electrical signal with no soul, and without the need of any special consideration except mathematical certainty :)
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

The core question was how important is it for a designer to understand the music his equipment is supposed to produce to impart the sense of musicality.

I certainly feel it is extremely important. I know one high end designer who frequently engages musicians and seasoned concert goers during the last phases of the design. Apparently this used to be a frequent exercise during the golden years.
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

This is the kind of subject beloved of those who have only two pots of paint: black and white. But there is lot in what square_wave says here...

There are three types of audio gear these days.

- Ones that are clearly designed to make people go on a merry go round of upgrades
- Ones that are designed to put that music in your hearts
- Bad audio gear designed by college kids in white uniforms

I firmly believe that while vintage folks used to design gear with their heart, it is not technology that takes away musicality from many designs these days. It is the intent and focus. There are many designers even now who makes musicality their first and foremost focus. However, if you look audiophile populace, the camps are very easy to demarcate. You can clearly see where they come from. It is only natural that manufacturers take advantage of these diverse demographics.
I'm sure that there is inexpert design, cynical design (like a sort of built-in obsolescence, married to the marketing dept's wish that buyers would have the upgrade bug.

I'm also sure that there is musical design (hands up those who do not think that their system is musical. Not many?) just as I am sure that science and engineering have always been the building blocks and that scientists and engineers are not entirely cold-blooded!

In fact, it is not the scientists and the engineers that I despise: it is the marketing departments.

IMHO the difference basically is that earlier, mastering by recording engineers used to be done based on the assumption that the listening had a decent reasonably smooth sounding system with good dynamic range.

These days on the other hand, mastering seems to be done with the assumption that the music is gonna be heard on really poor earbuds and cheap laptop speakers which results in the recording engineer artificially boosting certain frequency ranges. While this might help the tinny earbuds packaged with mp3 players and the lousy laptop speakers, on a resolving system such mastering sounds like junk. Also much of this is also because of the loudness wars that almost all popular music seems to indulge in.
These days?

The days of which you speak go way back, because the loudness wars that compress all the life and detail out of music originate in the day when radio was what made people aware of music, and no radio station wanted to be missed on the dial, so lets put "these days" at last fifty years or so. Having said that... ok, I'm sure that mp3, earbuds, car audio etc etc have all made their contributions --- but please don't think that there was a golden age, just a couple of decades ago, because there wasn't, and the early days of high fidelity belonged to a wealthy, elite classical-music-and-jazz-listening elite. A rung or three down brought one to something like the Radiogram that I grew up with. Everything in one big box like a wardrobe on its side. Boom, boom, boom...
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

Ok, now for the counterpoint. At the risk of sounding elitist, Once upon a time, You needed to be seriously committed to music for getting into Hi Fi - the other day, My boss was asking me about buying some expensive audio equipment - apparently he had come across a sizeable sum of money and was planning to spend it as 'home renovation' so that it would escape the taxman, and he had budgeted for some of it to go into buying a good stereo setup, and this is not the exception - I have a lot of friends who want to get into audio just for the heck of it, or because they can afford it, or its the latest fad - probably they got tired of sitting around with a $$$ DSLR waiting for that killer photo opportunity to arise, and want to spend it on a pursuit where nirvana is easier to attain.

Ages ago, it cost my dad more than a month's salary to buy what was essentially a basic tape deck. Today I can buy a full setup for a fraction of mine. If you adjust for inflation, though, its a different picture. A gram of gold was 40~50 INR, now costs approx 2.5K. with that in view, Hi Fi Prices have fallen drastically, and in that context, comparing a mid end amp from the the 70's to a current mid end amp doesn't make sense in my opinion, And more than the technology or the products themselves, the target demographic has changed, and that makes a bigger difference for the manufacturer. add to that cost cutting, and you have things going downhill very quickly.

Even within what I can remember, in 2002, it would cost about 100$ to buy a cambridge soundworks 2.1, and those were good, but people who bought them at that time were seriously crazy about getting good sound from their computers. Another 5 years later, in 2007, creative's 100$ speakers - some gigaworks were no great shakes, and now you get some inspire S2 for that kind of money.

Even if you look at a specific speaker model - again using PC speakers as a reference, The Altec Lansing ATP3 cost 2k in 2006, and was pretty decent. The replacement, the VS 4121 cut a few corners , but was still okay, but prices had gone UP to 3k. The next model the VS 4621 is far worse, and it costs 4.5K. The same goes for my Logitech Z2300. The current Z623 costs much more, while being a shadow of its predecessor.

I look at where this is going, and honestly, I'm not very enthused.

/rant
 
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Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

Quoting from the article for the expert comments of members who rely exclusively on the specs and get judgmental based on those.;)

In North America it became popular in the audio community to correlate audio performance to measurable parameters like frequency response, total harmonic distortion, output power, inter-modulation distortion, signal-to-noise ratio, transient response, and so on. A measurable scientific approach must be better right? While measurements of important parameters do matter, it turns out that not all of those measurements worked well to predict musicality, and listeners didnt always like what they were hearing, even though the measurements said the audio gear was measurably better.
 
Re: I have a hunch that those Golden Era designers designed their Hi-Fi equipment wit

I love how the hindi music from 60's, 70's, 80's sound on my tablet speakers, streamed through Pandora. I felt I was home, in India, listening to our old Murphy transistor radio in my childhood. So nostalgic, so musical. Made me sing along, without me realizing it.

However, that does not make me delusional. Yes, there was great music in old days. But not all music created then was great. There was lots of music created then which we don't remember now. What we know after a while is just the great music from those days. Also, there is some emotional attachment to that old music, which will make you happy, on any system. If you can somehow replicate the same experience (like my tablet speakers give me), then it hits right in the heart. Does that make tablet speakers or that old murphy radio greatest, musical system? No, not at all.

Same can be said about equipment too. Not all the equipment created then was great. There was lots of crappy equipment too. Moreover, all those equipment had lots of noise. We didn't realize it because probably we hadn't heard better. We assumed that was how it was supposed to sound and consider that musical, warmth etc. Anyway, not all the equipment designed, produced in those days can be considered great. There were lots of failures too. Only a handful is considered great and retains vintage value.

Another thing to consider now is the scrutiny. With the advent of Internet and availability of information, everything gets scrutinized a lot. Moreover this scrutiny is global as well. Any review published on a website is available to everyone. Information is both good and bad. It helps our knowledge but sometimes takes the fun out too. Audio being a subjective area, lot of what we hear/perceive is also driven by what we know. It can mar our experience too.

As for current music, again not all music is created equal. There have been lots of great music create in 90's, 00's and still being created. We can't expect all the music to be great, again this is as per taste. My daughter loves Selena Gomez music, it gives me headache. But its our taste. As for me, there have some great music by Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Elton John etc.

Bottom line.
There was great music/equipment created then, there is great music/equipment created now.
There is junk music/equipment created now, there was junk music/equipment created then too.
 
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