Improving Stereo Performance of a Surround Sound Setup

[captrajesh]

Chanced upon this article which is quite informative and would help members in extracting maximum from their HT set ups. It is a two part article:

1. Part 1

2. Part 2

 

[asliarun]

Chanced upon this article which is quite informative and would help members in extracting maximum from their HT set ups. It is a two part article:

1. Part 1

2. Part 2

I am using my AVR as a preamp as the article suggests - and the result was quite significant. I'm now firmly in the camp that for entry level AVRs, an extra power amp for stereo makes a big difference. In my case, I actually have an integrated amp with the volume turned up almost all the way - so it is acting as a power amp of sorts.

I still feel that despite what people say about Marantz (that it is better for music than most other AVRs), the onboard DAC is really a let-down. It is not "good enough". For poor low bitrate mp3 recordings or for internet radio that is usually low bitrate, it does some post processing (called MDAX). It does improve the sound overall but also adds side effects to voices etc. Once we start noticing it, it is difficult to ignore those unwanted effects.

 

[Srinath_seshadri]

Marantz dac's are a let down ? LOL, I dont know first hand, but I can tell you marantz Dolby chips from before 2000 are completely worthless.

Now after 2000 they are still worth - less (No pun intended) but atleast in the post HDMI ones, marantz receivers work in 5.1 or 7.1 mode when the hdmi dies. That is far better than Pioneer, denon, onkyo and HK. No experience with the other brands.

Marantz SR580, 680, 780 and 880 made from 1995 - 2000 are nearly as good as their 2265-2270 in stereo. But put it in a home theater and man does it sound like there isn't any dolby at all in it. Which actually would have been better, they did something, and its all bad.
Pity, they sound so ... liquid ... in stereo. Oh they dont have phono either, another dumb idea if you ask me. Hey gives me a excuse to run my phono into a tube preamp.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[elangoas]

I too have a similar experience of using Marantz SR5200 AVR as Pre Amp & adding power amplifier for fronts.... It gave the necessary oomph for my floorstanders.....

The above AVR, had a really good DAC and was very good for stereo.... Even with MP3... I had paired 3 different brands of speaker (Wharfedale, Mission & Sonodyne)...

Mission was a fantastic match with Marantz.... I believe partnering speakers makes the difference...

 

[asliarun]

Marantz dac's are a let down ? LOL, I dont know first hand, but I can tell you marantz Dolby chips from before 2000 are completely worthless.

Now after 2000 they are still worth - less (No pun intended) but atleast in the post HDMI ones, marantz receivers work in 5.1 or 7.1 mode when the hdmi dies. That is far better than Pioneer, denon, onkyo and HK. No experience with the other brands.

Marantz SR580, 680, 780 and 880 made from 1995 - 2000 are nearly as good as their 2265-2270 in stereo. But put it in a home theater and man does it sound like there isn't any dolby at all in it. Which actually would have been better, they did something, and its all bad.
Pity, they sound so ... liquid ... in stereo. Oh they dont have phono either, another dumb idea if you ask me. Hey gives me a excuse to run my phono into a tube preamp.

Cool.
Srinath.

I wasn't sure what you were saying in the end, but I was basing my comparison of the Marantz AVR DAC with an Audio GD DAC that I last owned. Now that is a DAC i loved.

The Marantz DAC doesn't sound bad for everything and it does have the hifi sound - but for a few songs, I was quite distracted by the heavy processing done by the DAC. Again, I could be wrong or am basing my conclusions too soon. Will listen to more songs etc. and verify. And do note - my observations were mostly on the MDAX part of the DAC. High quality audio sounds better. Or maybe I got spoilt by the Audio GD DAC

 

[asliarun]

A question little different from the above thread: (Have no experience using AVRs)

Do the pre-outs of an AVR too subjected to audio signal processing? In other words, can they be used as preamp surround processor using the pre-outs ?

Thanks.

The Marantz slimline series only has preouts for 2.1 (front-left, front-right, and sub).

On the other hand, I think other models do have preouts for all channels.

Like this Emotiva Fusion 8100. Or UMC 200 - which is a preamp surround processor though and not a full blown AVR.

But if your question was about the AVR processing the sound, as I understand, most AVRs have a pure direct mode that will pass through the input sound. I believe that different AVRs implement this differently, but the gist is that the pure/direct mode skips or minimizes the processing done by the AVR.

 

[Srinath_seshadri]

I wasn't sure what you were saying in the end, but

I was saying the marantz AVR's dont process surround sound too well.
No idea about those AVR's on board DAC.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[shuv]

Adding an external power amp makes a huge difference. My AVR pre outs are connected to a preamp which in turn is connected to the power amplifier. The entire movie experience has improved tremendously. I intend to get a three channel power amplifier for the LCR in future.

 

[Srinath_seshadri]

If you use avr's pre outs into a power amp for the fronts, the avr's actually can supply more power for the other 3 or 5. This is because the limitation in most cases is the power supply in a modern AVR. The typical hint you get when you look at the specs, its 80w/ch in stereo, and 60 watts/ch in 5 channel. If you eliminated that 160 by sending it to a power amp, you can get 80 /ch to the 3 remaining ones.
I have a proceed 5 - Made by the mark levinson people, that uses 3 toroidal transformers in the chassis mounted to the front plate which is 1/2 inch thick steel BTW just to get around this limitation.
It weighs 125 lb - as much as my wife. 125 watts X 5. Scary.
I have its matched preamp - the proceed AVP 5. The preamp weighs 50lb. As much as a yamaha dsp 3090.
I would bring it home and use it. Except my AV rack will probably break if I did that, and then I'll never hear the end of it. Its already got the 50 lb monster power supply, I dont think it can take another 175 lbs.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[elangoas]

When a power amplifier is added with AVR as Pre, yes. it is subjected to audio processing of AVR....

Adding a power amp to AVR, gives enough flexibility to however you want it....

Let me quote an example : STB connectivity...

* Connecting STB Analogue out to a stereo amplifier directly Vs connecting digitally to AVR with power amp had a difference... The latter was better....

* it gives you the convenience of watching movies, watching STB & listening to music from the same amp without fiddling the connections...

 

[shuv]

@Yogibear - The fronts are subjected to the AVR's processing. The same tracks sound different when played through the AVR vis-a-vis my stereo preamp. Even when I select Pure Direct, switch of Audyssey and and the MDAX thingy.

 

[shuv]

@Yogibear - Yes to all of your queries.

I did the Audyssey setting with the power amp feeding the L and R speakers. Works like a charm.

 

[elangoas]

Could anyone post pictures of the rear of his AVR, please? Showing the pre-outs?

I have one more query. Mine is could be different than others as its early model.

Thanks.

It would be lil difficult to click rear side images of the AVR when it is fully connected, so picked it from the net.. http://mocoloco.com/vote/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/onkyo-tx-nr818-av-receiver-rear.jpg

http://www.fr.onkyo.com/assets/2/1/7/1/8/TX-NR818__S__Rear_N9999x9999.png.jpg

What AVR do you have & the model ?

 

[elangoas]

In my AVR, it has only Pre-Out for all channels... So which means that AVR will remain as Pre-map if i decide to use power amplifiers for all channels...

In your HK AVR, you have both "Main IN" & "Pre-Out" which offers even more flexibility... The Pre-Amp is connected to power-Amp in your AVR with that Jumpers...

* Your AVR has Pre-outs for Left & Right only...
* You could use your AVR as Pre-Amp with an additional power amplifiers
* You could use your AVR as juz power amplifier with a separate Pre-Amp.

Hope i was clear....

I you use it for stereo playback, no processing will be applied even when you take pre-outs for left & right channels...

 

[elangoas]

Wow, thanks so much. Should have asked this earlier, my Rotel shud not have been gathering dust (so as to say, but no dust as I do take care of them) for want of a pre-amp.

Thanks again. Concepts cleared and understood.
Samir.

Great...Which model of power-amp do you have from Rotel..If you could share them...

 

[elangoas]

That looks a classy power-amp :clapping: Power figures are even good...

 

[shuv]

That is a drool inducing power amp!