Invention Audio Power Conditioner - Version 2

[mbhangui]

As @thedude said @mbhangui , if you can build one with the parts that you linked above, I and several others like me, will be inline to buy one from you.

But please do bear in mind, that someone spent a lot of time experimenting and designing this thing, and his qouted price reflects this. And you will just be copying the same, like the Chinese. The price of a component is never the sum of the parts inside

It is a very standard CLC circuit. It is present in each and every SMPS power supply. If you open your computer SMPS, you will find a very good quality EMI filter inside. The one I use is not copied. It is straight purchased from the electronic market in 2012 much before probably the invention audio device was invented. And there is no active component in it. From the photo that can be seen, it is a standard emi filter and not some rocket science that required lot of time experimenting. Maybe it is the cost of the cabinet and some special cryogenic cooled wires used inside. Honestly, it should be called an emi filter and not a power conditioner.

Can someone please post the link showing the internals of this. Iam more interested in knowing who posted that pic, than what is inside itself.

It was being discussed in the link posted below. From the picture one can make out that a single EMI filter is being used for 8 points. So if you connect a noise polluting device to any of the power outlets, it will affect the remaining 7 outlets. Rather it should have used individual emi filters for each of those 8 points.

Invention audio power conditioner

I had the opportunity to audition the invention audio power conditioner in my audio system for couple of weeks. I was able to do some A/B comparisons keeping the direct mains supply as the comparison point. I also have a double conversion online APC ups but I kept this out of the picture for...

www.hifivision.com

Drkrack posted an image of Isotek Aquarius Evo3 power conditioner(priced 2000 usd by the way and so the invention audio conditioner is far better priced IMHO compared to isotek). However, the isotek power conditoner has individual emi filters for each points, which is a good thing.

EDIT:
The isotek also has a bank of 16 yellow coloured capacitors. It looks like it additionally does power factor correction. Another image which shows the caps clearly enough to be counted:

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

It is a very standard CLC circuit. It is present in each and every SMPS power supply. If you open your computer SMPS, you will find a very good quality EMI filter inside. The one I use is not copied. It is straight purchased from the electronic market in 2012 much before probably the invention audio device was invented. And there is no active component in it. From the photo that can be seen, it is a standard emi filter and not some rocket science that required lot of time experimenting. Maybe it is the cost of the cabinet and some special cryogenic cooled wires used inside. Honestly, it should be called an emi filter and not a power conditioner.

Point well noted @mbhangui

 

[thedude]

It was being discussed in the link posted below. From the picture one can make out that a single EMI filter is being used for 8 points. So if you connect a noise polluting device to any of the power outlets, it will affect the remaining 7 outlets. Rather it should have used individual emi filters for each of those 8 points.

Invention audio power conditioner

I had the opportunity to audition the invention audio power conditioner in my audio system for couple of weeks. I was able to do some A/B comparisons keeping the direct mains supply as the comparison point. I also have a double conversion online APC ups but I kept this out of the picture for...

www.hifivision.com

Drkrack posted an image of Isotek Aquarius Evo3 power conditioner(priced 2000 usd by the way and so the invention audio conditioner is far better priced IMHO compared to isotek). However, the isotek power conditoner has individual emi filters for each points, which is a good thing.


View attachment 65432
EDIT:
The isotek also has a bank of 16 yellow coloured capacitors. It looks like it additionally does power factor correction. Another image which shows the caps clearly enough to be counted

View attachment 65433

Aquarius costs £2000 and has barely anything inside. It seems to be a pattern with these conditioners or what ever you (or I, or anyone else) wants to call them.

I don’t understand why people who have never tried the IA conditioner or people who think it’s an abomination to spend 30/35k on a conditioner etc etc are so eager on passing judgements over it? (this seems like a pattern). Why comment based on a picture? Isn’t it unfair to an SME?

I have yet to come across a single owner who is unhappy with their purchase. Isn’t that enough proof that it works?

I myself demoed it in my system and bought the same unit vs an IsoTek Polaris ($400 MRP I think) that a generous FM lent me long term. For me IA PC was easily twice as good but at about the same price. So it was a no brainer decision. I also looked at pictures of open IsoTeks before the purchase and they didn’t have much inside either. I care for what it does for my sound rather that going by the kilo.

Like Mano said…a value of a component can never be just the sum of its parts.

 

[mbhangui]

I don’t understand: why people who have never tried the IA conditioner or people who think it’s an abomination to spend 30/35k on a conditioner are so eager on passing judgements over it? (this seems like a pattern). Why comment based on a picture? Isn’t it unfair to an SME?

Unfortunately the picture tells everything including just one EMI filter for all 8 power outlets? So it just takes to connect one noisy equipment on one of the outlet to negate the interference that was removed from the power input. Is this equipment some holy grail that one isn't allowed to comment on the design? This is like using a good water filter and allowing unfiltered water from another source to mix with the filtered water. Unless one wants to use 35k to power just one equipment, this isn't OK. The important thing is not to turn a piece of equipment into some religion.

I have yet to come across a single owner who is unhappy with their purchase. Isn’t that enough proof that it works?

That is good. Happy for you. Enjoy your music, that's what matters. I have said it before the following comment

I saw the thread and the photo and yes it is far overpriced though there is nothing wrong in that if people are getting results.

I myself demoed it in my system and bought the same unit vs an IsoTek Polaris ($400 MRP I think) that a generous FM lent me long term. For me IA PC was easily twice as good but at about the same price. So it was a no brainer decision. I also looked at pictures of open IsoTeks before the purchase and they didn’t have much inside either. I care for what it does for my sound rather that going by the kilo.

Good for all those who purchased it and are happy with it As long as one is happy why bother what is inside?

A value of a component can never be just the sum of its parts.

Yes. But this isn't a case of a technology marvel. It is just a plain passive CLC circuit unlike something like the IFI conditioner. Some will be happy and some will not.

 

[thedude]

Unfortunately the picture tells everything including just one EMI filter for all 8 power outlets? So it just takes to connect one noisy equipment on one of the outlet to negate the interference that was removed from the power input. Is this equipment some holy grail that one isn't allowed to comment on the design? This is like using a good water filter and allowing unfiltered water from another source to mix with the filtered water. Unless one wants to use 35k to power just one equipment, this isn't OK. The important thing is not to turn a piece of equipment into some religion.



That is good. Happy for you. Enjoy your music, that's what matters. I have said it before the following comment




Good for all those who purchased it and are happy with it As long as one is happy why bother what is inside?



Yes. But this isn't a case of a technology marvel. It is just a plain passive CLC circuit unlike something like the IFI conditioner. Some will be happy and some will not.

Make one at let’s say for example 1/3rd the cost same performance. Give it for AB. Then I’ll see if your comments/claims hold any value.

If I like it there are others who would be interested too.

Like I said before I’ll pay for it. I neither have patience, time, motivation, need nor the DIY skills to do it.

 

[mbhangui]

Make one at let’s say for example 1/3rd the cost same performance. Give it for AB. Then I’ll see if your comments/claims hold any value.

Like I said before I’ll pay for it. I neither have patience, time, motivation, need nor the DIY skills to do it.

Exactly the same here. I neither have patience time, motivation to show what is so obvious. If I have hurt your feelings and maybe few of those who purchased this, that was never the intention. Don't feel bad. The 8 power outlets are worth probably > Rs 1000 each. In fact a good quality imported IEC plug with fuse will cost that much. Let say the cabinet costs 10,000, the emi filter consisting of three Y safety capacitors, one inductor, one georgeous PCB and one film capacitor totaling to Rs 10,000, the labour 5000 and a poor SME trying to make a name, cost priceless, but let's say assign a cost of Rs 15,000 to SME sentiments and the R&D that went into it. So total comes to around Rs 48k. At 35k it is a steal considering that cost is never sum of the total parts. Imagine cost of iphone based on the weight of the aluminium and sand that goes into construction of the case and the semiconductors?

Very few folks will take an informed decision if they understand the image below taken from a post by a unhappy user. See post 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 40 and 48 of the below post. Few will understand it, most will not. In the post below, many have liked it, few have not. It doesn't matter. Whatever makes one happy.

Invention audio power conditioner

I had the opportunity to audition the invention audio power conditioner in my audio system for couple of weeks. I was able to do some A/B comparisons keeping the direct mains supply as the comparison point. I also have a double conversion online APC ups but I kept this out of the picture for...

www.hifivision.com

The relevant image from the above post is

Also another concerning post by a user who was harassed for posting the internals

Invention Audio

I would like to bring to the attention of the FM's here a very disturbing event that occurred recently. There is an individual named Sandeep who has some connection to Invention Audio/Hyderabad, owner/partner etc. I met this individual a few times in Audio shows. Anyways there was a post...

www.hifivision.com

 

[Hari Iyer]

It was being discussed in the link posted below. From the picture one can make out that a single EMI filter is being used for 8 points. So if you connect a noise polluting device to any of the power outlets, it will affect the remaining 7 outlets. Rather it should have used individual emi filters for each of those 8 points.

Invention audio power conditioner

I had the opportunity to audition the invention audio power conditioner in my audio system for couple of weeks. I was able to do some A/B comparisons keeping the direct mains supply as the comparison point. I also have a double conversion online APC ups but I kept this out of the picture for...

www.hifivision.com

Drkrack posted an image of Isotek Aquarius Evo3 power conditioner(priced 2000 usd by the way and so the invention audio conditioner is far better priced IMHO compared to isotek). However, the isotek power conditoner has individual emi filters for each points, which is a good thing.


View attachment 65432
EDIT:
The isotek also has a bank of 16 yellow coloured capacitors. It looks like it additionally does power factor correction. Another image which shows the caps clearly enough to be counted

View attachment 65433

Unfortunately power condition is a strict no for my gear. I have tried isolation transformers, single and double line filters like these images, but I always find them to be initially good for a month or so. After critical listening, I discover that they rob your music completely of all transients. These power conditioners also add their own series and parallel resonance to the main line and afftects the harmonic power energy negatively. Not to say of increased impedances for your audio gears. If you feel that your gear is in need of a power conditioner, then imo you are addressing the issue in the wrong place to begin with. I have spent tons of my money and time working on these and atlast scrapped everything.

 

[mbhangui]

Unfortunately power condition is a strict no for my gear. I have tried isolation transformers, single and double line filters like these images, but I always find them to be initially good for a month or so. After critical listening, I discover that they rob your music completely of all transients. These power conditioners also add their own series and parallel resonance to the main line and afftects the harmonic power energy negatively. Not to say of increased impedances for your audio gears. If you feel that your gear is in need of a power conditioner, then imo you are addressing the issue in the wrong place to begin with. I have spent tons of my money and time working on these and atlast scrapped everything.

Interesting. I have heard this often about EMI filters adding their own resonance to the powerline. I will try this out by removing the existing EMI filter to my tube amp, but I do like the sound with the filter. Maybe I should do some critical listening. I have done a scheme regarding my power lines. I have three power lines in my AV room. I don't put any noise polluting device on powerline 1. only my Shanti LPS, Pass B1 which has EMI filter connected to r-core transformer supplying power to LM318, LM337 voltage regulators, tube AMP and a pair of electrostatic speakers go into this line. Powerline 2 has my TV (which has SMPS with built in EMI filter inside), firestick SMPS, chromecast SMPS, chromecast audio SMPS and a Yamaha AVR (AVRs have SMPS with built in EMI filters inside). This powerline goes to an emi filter which goes into an isolation transformer. Powerline 3 is near my listening position. This is where I plug in my cell phone chargers in rare cases (cell phone chargers have SMPS inside and do inject noise).

In fact all SMPS have an EMI filter inside, so I always wonder how much damage these SMPS do. The only thing left for me to try is the IFI audio purifier or the iFi audio powerstation AC bar.

 

[Kannan]

One of the most misunderstood equipment is isolation transfomer. It clears the DC component from the mains and provides clean a/c supply to your chain which is critical. As long as you ensure its power rating is twice the load it will not be detrimental to your setup.
I have been using one with excellent results for a long time.

 

[mbhangui]

One of the most misunderstood equipment is isolation transfomer. It clears the DC component from the mains and provides clean a/c supply to your chain which is critical. As long as you ensure its power rating is twice the load it will not be detrimental to your setup.
I have been using one with excellent results for a long time.

I too use an isolation transformer, mainly to separate the ground. Here is Paul from PS audio arguing against isolation transformer.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Interesting. I have heard this often about EMI filters adding their own resonance to the powerline. I will try this out by removing the existing EMI filter to my tube amp, but I do like the sound with the filter. Maybe I should do some critical listening. I have done a scheme regarding my power lines. I have three power lines in my AV room. I don't put any noise polluting device on powerline 1. only my Shanti LPS, Pass B1 which has EMI filter connected to r-core transformer supplying power to LM318, LM337 voltage regulators, tube AMP and a pair of electrostatic speakers go into this line. Powerline 2 has my TV (which has SMPS with built in EMI filter inside), firestick SMPS, chromecast SMPS, chromecast audio SMPS and a Yamaha AVR (AVRs have SMPS with built in EMI filters inside). This powerline goes to an emi filter which goes into an isolation transformer. Powerline 3 is near my listening position. This is where I plug in my cell phone chargers in rare cases (cell phone chargers have SMPS inside and do inject noise).

In fact all SMPS have an EMI filter inside, so I always wonder how much damage these SMPS do. The only thing left for me to try is the IFI audio purifier or the iFi audio powerstation AC bar.

Equipment should have low impedance to the power mains and with all these you are adding impedance which will rob all the transients from your music. No doubt it will sound clean - sterile but very dull and boring without energy and very mechanical IMO/ IME. Also don't ever use any line filters or isolation transformer on your power amplifier. It's a definite no - well atleast for me if at all you require any line filters or isolation let that be on source or preamplifier. Most decent gears have sufficient circuitry to prevent any noise from mains and 99.9% times you won't require to add anything external. Most people have this fancy opinion about noise in their mind (me included) due to over reading in the internet. I have discarded everything oneby one logically. You too will one day - it's a journey. Enjoy.

PS: if you yet feel your line is noisy, try putting a dedicated line/ neutral/ earth line from your energy meter to audio point. By that rest of your home would not pollute your audio line technically atleast. Use thicker 4sqmm or 6sqmm cable for this. Works out economy wise too.

 

[cmsajith]

Version 2 design, seems separate MOVs and caps for each output and a single core inductor. Changing an MOV will be a difficult task in the process of hiding the PCB...

 

[mbhangui]

Version 2 design, seems separate MOVs and caps for each output and a single core inductor. Changing an MOV will be a difficult task in the process of hiding the PCB...

View attachment 65487

this is a big improvement over the one I saw in earlier posts and also the manufacturer has filled it with epoxy to eliminate resonance created by components vibrating. In fact all EMI filters that I have purchased till now employ this method of filling it with epoxy resin.

 

[cmsajith]

this is a big improvement over the one I saw in earlier posts and also the manufacturer has filled it with epoxy to eliminate resonance created by components vibrating. In fact all EMI filters that I have purchased till now employ this method of filling it with epoxy resin.

An mov is a part that act as the fuse and needs replacement in case of a spike. The design could have eliminated the epoxy on mov. I don't think the physical vibrating resonance is audible, mostly it's done for other reasons.

 

[mbhangui]

An mov is a part that act as the fuse and needs replacement in case of a spike. The design could have eliminated the epoxy on mov. I don't think the physical resonance in the power section can happen in the audible range

Yes, MOV short circuit when the voltage crosses a threshold. This causes the fuse to blow. The noise does happen in the audible range. Just put your ear next to any cell phone charger and you will hear a faint whine.

In the case above, the entire EMI unit will have to be replaced if there is a surge and the MOV blows.

There are ways to remove epoxy. Acetone can be used. Heat gun at around 90 deg C will soften epoxy allowing one to scrape it off.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Version 2 design, seems separate MOVs and caps for each output and a single core inductor. Changing an MOV will be a difficult task in the process of hiding the PCB...

View attachment 65487

This is completely opposite to what I have posted in #53

 

[Selvin]

PS: if you yet feel your line is noisy, try putting a dedicated line/ neutral/ earth line from your energy meter to audio point. By that rest of your home would not pollute your audio line technically atleast. Use thicker 4sqmm or 6sqmm cable for this. Works out economy wise too.

+1.... I used to recommend this in my circle.

 

[rajivaryan1984]

Bad news, they are no more selling this power conditioner..

 

[mbhangui]

Bad news, they are no more selling this power conditioner..

What's the reason, any idea?

 

[Rosenarayanappa]

Why so? Newer version in the pipeline?