IP Piracy

[vinay]

I think it is not entirely a different debate of topic, if certain areas of film industry are minting money way ahead then normal than naturally someone has paid more, in this case it is among the viewers who have paid more, so this becomes one of the case why there is escalation of piracy as movies are not available at a competitive or fair price in theatre's etc.

V.

The argument that the owners in this case are big movie moguls, large studies and corporations, have already minted money, etc. is an entirely a different topic of debate.

 

[vinay]

Please excuse me i did not understand this meaning, let me know.

Thanks

V.

When you put it like that, Vinay, umm OK .

 

[vinay]

It is well agreed in earlier posts by many of us that piracy is wrong but to use hard words like theft and related may not be correct because that way according to you it may be that many professionals like doctors, advocates, etc are in-direct murderer's, the details of which are there in the earlier posts.

It is true to your writing that a large portion of us do not believe this as wrong as you think no wonder there are so many threads on media players and look at the number of post hits in these threads, so that clearly shows how much of downloading is happening in our country and all over the world.

I will never use a word thief for you as you were also downloading movies, so what you are saying is that if you were still downloading movies then you would have not said anyone a thief, this is what it means?

It is nice to know you care that the right people should get their profit but you have to realize that the film industry also does in-direct piracy with loads of black money floating, etc, while you are paying white money to buy your content but they are profiting in form of better portions in black money, while it is true certain banners ethics are very good.

V.

OK. There are two factions here and one will never be able to convince the other group. I am from the group that believes that piracy is not only morally wrong but a crime/theft also. The other group is a large majority that believes that piracy is OK (even if wrong).

As far as I am concerned, I used to download stuff a couple of years ago but since then completely stopped it. Not only that, I am buying the originals of the stuff that I downloaded. I have made a promise to buy legitimate stuff only. I buy genuine stuff because not because I care about "right" people getting their pay/profit (no I couldn't care less about that); I buy original because I want quality. I am not saying other don't care about quality but to each his/her own.

(Here is my collection of originals: My Movie Collection)

Amen!

 

[vinay]

In such a case the companies are doing very bad to the viewers, so will this mean greater problem then piracy?

In other words the viewer some what is nailed from both the sides, tickets for a movie not at all for a fair price and if you buy the movie, there are quality issues, is this among the reasons for piracy? Do we need to tackle the issue at grass root level?

V.

Just4kix,

I know an exact opposite case. A friend of mine used to regularly buy original discs of old Hindi movies at around Rs. 399 each (now slashed to Rs. 99). Every disc he bought in India used to show the Audio stream as Remastered to Dolby Digital 5.1 even the movies with mono aural soundtracks. We all know how those movies sound on even ordinary amplifiers. And then one day he picked up a copy of one of the old Hindi movies (a original copy of which he already has) from the grey market and was astonished at the crisp audio and high quality video. On enquiry he was told by the supplier that these are copied from the discs meant for US market. Later when I checked the copies of US DVDs I found the audio stream to be honestly mentioned as 2 channel stereo or mono, as the case may be. Now this guy (my friend) swears by copies from the grey market for their quality.

How can these companies have two sets of standards for two sets of people? I suppose honesty and fair play should be a two-way street. Even the English movies you buy here are totally different from what you get in US. I bought an entire set of 2-disc James Bond movies (with truly and professionally remastered audio and video) with a very good Dolby Digital 5.1 audio, from a music store here. Later, I was surprised to see the US release with DTS stream and sounding far better than the Indian originals.

I am not taking sides here. Just mentioning a few facts and incidencts I had come across over the years.

Regds / Shailender

 

[vinay]

I appreciate your reality based writing, this is very true that in many of walks of life something is wrong somewhere or the other then why single out piracy and most importantly before we are questioned, the bigger errors which the film industry is doing and related has to be tackled first, then it will be we viewers turn or should we say that the train boogies come first and then the engine?

V.

If you truly want to have a meaningful discussion, then please look at the various counter-points mentioned in previous posts and try answering them.

In the Lee example mentioned above, do you find it immoral to take a photograph of a pair of Jeans and getting it replicated from your tailor?

One common thread I find in all the righteousness and morality on display here is an (incorrect) lumping of examples. A chai-wallah is NOT the same as a mega-corporation.

I will ask you this other question. Dow Industries (formerly, Union Carbide) has acted strictly within the framework of Indian law, and has promptly paid whatever the government asked it to pay. However, do YOU think what they did was immoral?

Similarly, please try to look at what the recording and media companies are doing, the kind of lobbying and bribery they are indulging in to get laws passed that suit their business model, the way they are suing people left and right, the way they are trying to patent and copyright EVERYTHING, the way they are trying to not allowing copyrights to expire by getting laws passed, etc.

Then, if you are truly convinced, by all means, please get moralistic. Nobody is saying that "piracy" is morally tenable. However, what IS or should be a copyright? What IS or should be a patent? What IS or should be "fair use"?

We need to fully understand these things before blasting others.

For example, do you feel that creating a personal backup copy is OK? According to certain laws, it is actually illegal, and you can get fined or jailed for it. In fact, a lot of content and even hardware that you buy nowadays has encryption, spyware, hidden software, etc. that actively prevents you from making a copy.

Amazon got a patent for a "1 click" process of buying something online, which is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Its like someone creating a patent for say, running backwards.

One more thing, many many medicines that we buy in India are illegal copies of medicines made by US pharma companies. The US companies have spent billions of dollars research the drugs, and Indian companies copy these medicines and sell them in India making huge profits, while the US companies get zero.

So, you should stop buying Indian medicines too! One immoral act does not justify another, I agree. But, to focus one's morality on certain acts, and conveniently neglect other acts is also double standards.

Not saying anything to you (general rambling), but we Indians are very good at this double standard business. We go out and date other people's sisters, but dare anyone date our sister! We will go beat them up!

 

[vinay]

It is very well said.

We should pay our hard earned money for over priced movie ticket so that we can feed the film industry while some of them steal story lines from hollywood etc and yet they want to cap us.

V.

Oh cmon dont give me that reply!

1.) You have just taken 1 example whereas we are talking about the whole industry in general here.

2.) Even I can say the foreign producers, directors, music composers etc have a family to support, kids to feed etc but that doesn't stop Bollywood people from shamelessly taking their stories and work without paying even a penny and on top of that they blatantly refuse that they were inspired from the movie.

Ever heard a phrase "stealing from the robbers"?

 

[sound_advice]

"A Legal stand is stopping at a red signal because a cop/ camera(proof) is watching.
A moral stand is stopping at a red signal even if no cops are watching you.
many stop, some speed away(where?):sad:[/QUOTE]

Well said..

 

[suri]

in no legal system, or any system that includes logic is piracy the same as theft.

HEHEHE!

you trying to light the lamp of knowledge in the center of an erupting volcano?!!

 

[ajinkya]

it is not just in our legal system. in no legal system, or any system that includes logic is piracy the same as theft.

At the risk of prolonging this tired thread, and creating another hydra head
just came across this from wikipedia:
Copyright infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Near the end of the article, this statement:
A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft."[58]

Direct link to report:
[ARCHIVED CONTENT] Department for Culture Media and Sport - digital britain

I think it is now part of a digital bill but not sure about the legal ramifications.

 

[psychotropic]

again it is a 'british government report', a 'report' of any sort has no value whatsoever in the law! yes, people frequently conflate piracy and theft, and neither the British government nor the US government, nor the Indian government are immune to this (since they are beholden to the commercial interests of the copyright lobby), that doesn't change facts, and that doesn't make it law

At the risk of prolonging this tired thread, and creating another hydra head
just came across this from wikipedia:
Copyright infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Near the end of the article, this statement:
A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft."[58]

Direct link to report:
[ARCHIVED CONTENT] Department for Culture Media and Sport - digital britain

I think it is now part of a digital bill but not sure about the legal ramifications.

 

[ajinkya]

Psychotropic,

The report has been incorporated into the Digital Economy Bill, which I assume is a legally binding and enforcable piece of legislature? It says so on the weblink I had posted:
"In June 2009 we published the Digital Britain Report. This has led directly to the Digital Economy Bill."

And also in this link:
[ARCHIVED CONTENT] Digital Britain

Britain’s Digital Economy Bill Causes Outrage

I haven't had a chance to go through the Bill in detail but if the above statements are true, then indeed piracy is being looked at as some variant of theft, even legally. Here is a brief synopsis:
Digital Economy Bill: Quick Guide To All 45 Measures | paidContent:UK

 

[psychotropic]

it's a bill, and a controversial one at that. there are many many bills in the world and not all become law. This thing is not law yet, and it may never be so. Let's hope it never is

EDIT: whoops it's become an Act! let me have a quick look at it. back in a minute.

 

[psychotropic]

phew, looks like the Brits are not that stupid after all. The Act doesn't equate piracy with theft. It is a specific piece of legislation designed to deal with online piracy and has many measures and safeguards in it, but nowhere does it say that piracy is theft.

 

[asliarun]

"A Legal stand is stopping at a red signal because a cop/ camera(proof) is watching.
A moral stand is stopping at a red signal even if no cops are watching you.
many stop, some speed away(where?):sad:

Well said..[/QUOTE]

Want to add an unrelated point (am not trying to prolong this argument, just adding some thoughts).

Being moral by following the dotted line of the law is easy.

IMHO, morality is truly tested when you are in trouble with the law, and you know that you can get away with a bribe or by pulling some strings, and yet you don't, even when you know that it will leave a black mark on your record and you will have to face long term consequences.

To put it another way, being moral on a full stomach is easy. Being moral after going hungry for a week is another thing entirely.

Of course, the irony is that in today's world, the more one eats, the more immoral one tends to become.

 

[vinay]

I think it is not like prolonging the argument etc, if someone will write something then we will write if the need be and it should not be termed otherwise.

V.

Want to add an unrelated point (am not trying to prolong this argument, just adding some thoughts).

 

[BLASTO]

it is the women of the world -

who think of all the less important things - such as -

the food for the day (for the family) - and the "together times" for the family- and hosting "get-togethers" for friends and family - and "quality time".

and the men? (like us)

we debate and hold court on much more important things-

such as -

the EVIL OF PIRACY OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY PIRACY

and

HOW " I COULD CHANGE THE FACE OF INDIAN POLITICS"

and

"THE MISTAKES THE SELECTORS MADE FOR THE WORLD CUP TEAM"

(of course, this keeps the men occupied, and less inclined to destructive outlets for the male hormone!)

women are from earth -

and men are from mars

:clapping: hyeah: :yahoo: :lol:
Makes me think I belong.

 

[shailenderb]

Well said..

Want to add an unrelated point (am not trying to prolong this argument, just adding some thoughts).

Being moral by following the dotted line of the law is easy.

IMHO, morality is truly tested when you are in trouble with the law, and you know that you can get away with a bribe or by pulling some strings, and yet you don't, even when you know that it will leave a black mark on your record and you will have to face long term consequences.

To put it another way, being moral on a full stomach is easy. Being moral after going hungry for a week is another thing entirely.

Of course, the irony is that in today's world, the more one eats, the more immoral one tends to become.[/QUOTE]




That reminds me of Rajesh Khanna's dialogue in Roti, "Kasam roti ki, bhook ki duniya mein imaan badal jati hai".

Regds / Shailender