Linton Crossover Upgrade

Jeff,
THANK YOU!...I understand everything you've said - it's got my gears turning...I would also rather own a 2-way with 10-15" woofer as I can't handle loud volume and seldom venture beyond ~1w per my amps' meters (Yamaha AS2100 and JVC JA S55)...I do like how big 2-ways perform at low volumes...to the contrary, my Yamaha and Linton's make their best sound at a too-loud volume and eventually they'll both get swapped for something else...but I got them quite cheap for $2250 total so I thought to work with what I have for a few years and see what's possible.

Btw your XO is pure art, WOW!!...erm, by default this makes you a designer as well as a bit of an expert...bravo!

DK
 
Won't it compromise Linton's sound signature if we modify their cross-over circuit? I believe Linton's Engineering team tested enough before coming with the current cross-over design and the selection of components. Isn't it the case, or am I missing anything?
 
Why don't you redesign the cross over from scratch after taking raw driver measurements? It's simply easier to do that way rather than trial and error with components imo.
Hari,

Why not assume that the people at Wharfdale knew how to design the crossover, for the drivers, rather than a first-time speaker builder?

Why not just improve on their engineering, already done, with better lay out and price-unconstrained parts choices ??
 
Jeff,
THANK YOU!...I understand everything you've said - it's got my gears turning...I would also rather own a 2-way with 10-15" woofer as I can't handle loud volume and seldom venture beyond ~1w per my amps' meters (Yamaha AS2100 and JVC JA S55)...I do like how big 2-ways perform at low volumes...to the contrary, my Yamaha and Linton's make their best sound at a too-loud volume and eventually they'll both get swapped for something else...but I got them quite cheap for $2250 total so I thought to work with what I have for a few years and see what's possible.

Btw your XO is pure art, WOW!!...erm, by default this makes you a designer as well as a bit of an expert...bravo!

DK
You over rate me !! LOL.

It is GOOD that I have gotten your wheels to turn. But one thing I will advise, when doing High Efficiency speakers, do NOT select any 12 inch driver, I advise to do a 15 inch, and - a high quality driver.

Those eight caps on my tweeter's crossover, in a certain way, make up for me not going to a three way ( a super tweeter ) which I seek to avoid. KISS rules, but any one-way, eg : Lowther, won't cut it for my tastes.

Vintage ALTEC is my overall favorite speaker pick, particularly as I've chosen to do it. ( Both drivers horn loaded, FRONT HORNS, and directly-radiating into the listening space ). It's truly a lot of fun to hear with the low DCR / LSES amp types I self-design and build.


Jeff
 
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Won't it compromise Linton's sound signature if we modify their cross-over circuit? I believe Linton's Engineering team tested enough before coming with the current cross-over design and the selection of components. Isn't it the case, or am I missing anything?
You are missing something.

ALL general consumer type audio gear is built to a price point, and made " so it is good enough to sell ".

The average audiophile, may, or may not, be able to improve it, through parts replacements, to varying degrees.

It depends entirely upon the DIYer's personal experience, finances, and knowledge.

Jeff
 
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You are missing something.

ALL general consumer type audio gear is built to a price point, and made " so it is good enough to sell ".

The average audiophile, may, or may not, be able to improve it, through parts replacements, to varying degrees.

It depends entirely upon the DIYer's personal experience, finances, and knowledge.

Jeff
Interesting. Although it's hard to believe companies like Wharfedale will cut corners on Resistors/Capacitors to save chump change on a pair of $1000 Speakers. Premium components cost $$$ (Mundorf Supreme SGLD Capacitor usually costs $200/piece), and I get that. Still, at the same time, it won't be realistic for any company to put a 500$ cross-over circuit on a pair of $1000 speakers. That said, the current selection of components on Linton's cross-over board, probably that's the best their Enginerrng could come up with considering the Price/Performance ratio after rigorous testing.

Edit:- added additional points.
 
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Interesting. Although it's hard to believe companies like Wharfedale will cut corners on Resistors/Capacitors to save chump change on a pair of $1000 Speakers. Premium components cost $$$ (Mundorf Supreme SGLD Capacitor usually costs $200/piece), and I get that. Still, at the same time, it won't be realistic for any company to put a 500$ cross-over circuit on a pair of $1000 speakers. That said, the current selection of components on Linton's cross-over board, probably that's the best their Enginerrng could come up with considering the Price/Performance ratio after rigorous testing.

Edit:- added additional points.
Generally speaking, an extra dollar ( INR ) spent by a Manufacturer on a part, translates into about a four dollar ( INR ) increase in the product's retail price.

The retail price is not created in a vacuum. The Manufacturer must match value offered to the consumer, with other companies producing competing products that the consumer might also select.

Jeff
 
Although it's hard to believe companies like Wharfedale will cut corners on Resistors/Capacitors to save chump change
Many Speaker manufacturers does this ATC, KEF, Dynaudio on confidence series, Klipsch on Heritage series etc.
Before buying Linton, I checked on Klipsch Cornwall, but they do use average caps, sandcast resistors and iron core inductors. It retails for 6000 USD
Checked on KEF R300, they do use Sand cast resistors and iron core inductors. R3 users can confirm if any one happen to look inside.

And none of the reviewers on YouTube talk about these things in their post.
 
Here is the BOM & price for upgrading the resistors and inductors. shipping and custom duty on actuals. Aircore inductors has higher DCR (50% more of same AWG wire) compared to Ironcore ones, to compensate endup increasing the gauge value. for eg 1mm ironcore inductor DCR come close to 1.5mm Aircore DCR. Note sure how it will fit in the existing Xover board.
Resistor & Inductor.JPG


And I see Dentons use the same cap for tweeter crossover.

Denton Xover.JPG
 
Many Speaker manufacturers does this ATC, KEF, Dynaudio on confidence series, Klipsch on Heritage series etc.
Before buying Linton, I checked on Klipsch Cornwall, but they do use average caps, sandcast resistors and iron core inductors. It retails for 6000 USD
Checked on KEF R300, they do use Sand cast resistors and iron core inductors. R3 users can confirm if any one happen to look inside.

And none of the reviewers on YouTube talk about these things in their post.
I saw some YouTube videos where they tear apart the Sub Plate amplifiers and discovered sub stand components. Still, I didn't know that manufacturers employ the same trick to crossover networks for high-end speakers. It was a bit suprise.
 
We see a simpler crossover with the Denton VS the Linton. Less parts to " get in the way " of retaining signal integrity. Parts are not as crowded, so, in a way, layout is better - as there is slightly less field interaction between parts. But overall, the Denton quality is " average consumer product grade "....... easily improved.
Denton.JPG



There exists a lack of best - possible capacitor application ( due to manufacturing cost considerations and knowledge constraints ) by the people at Wharfedale.

That same SINGLE 6.8 uF cap, used for their tweeter circuit, it is far to large in it's uF value to assume it will do top end frequencies with full musical expression !! " Never in a million years ".

This 6.8 uF tweeter cap AND its corresponding " sister" film cap in the midrange circuit, require at least three additional high quality film caps to " bloom " and start to have the Wharfedale drivers play-back with full musical expression.

Want to experiment? / You do this in steps, by ear, listening " before and after" to each change. One step at a time.

First, you purchase four Mundorf Supreme Silver and Oil 0.22s ( I think it's 1,000 VDC rated ) and apply them to the existing cheapo 6.8 uF cap, ( and its sister midrange cap ), for each speaker. Listen to how much the midrange will improve!!! You will freak-out upon experiencing that, you should / may be in audio heaven.

You will also notice a discrepancy has developed between the midrange blossoming, and the stock crossover's pedestrian - sounding high frequency response. You need to continue this high quality multiple film cap bypassing, ( paralleling film caps, in all four of those same capacitor locations ) to obtain a linear sounding playback, mids .....to the highest of highs.

A simple / minimum of two more smaller uF film cap values will certainly need to be added to the 0.22s !!

A 0.033uF value is a necessity - to play the lower treble region with class !! ...... AND :

A 0.01 uF value will additionally be needed to nicely play above that 0.033 range, to play the highest of audible highs. In each case, four caps for stereo speakers.

The absolute first go-to part for the 0.01uF spot is an " under one USD " WIMA FKP2, 0.01uF at 630 VDC capacitor. A no-brainer I say. It is sonically equal to 0.01s costing twenty times more !!!!!!

But truly, after you hear the midrange / 0.22uF Mundorf S and O, you need to hear the 0.33 uF part ( for the lower treble ) next, and not the 0.01 ( highest treble ). The 0.33uF will BUILD on the 0.22s goodness, with a linear response-perceived.

Suggestions for a 0.033 quality film cap choice are harder for me to offer, I am less sure ( VS the WIMA FKP2 0.01 !! ).

OK, for 0.033uF, I would try either of these two brands / types as a start ( or maybe finish ) :

1) Maybe another Mundorf Supreme Silver and Oil, at 0.033uF ( OR - if on a budget )

2) order four WIMA FKP1 0.033s at 1200 VDC,........... much less costly ( and they may be good enough ).

Four comments :

1) The addition of these three different value quality film cap values, ( totaling 0.263uF ) will have very little audible effect - due to being a different uF value at the crossover location. The goodness in quality of the multiple quality film cap bypassing, to the speaker's perceived playback, will over-ride the uF value differences !!

2) Always remember, the bypass caps you add to one section ( eg : tweeter ) you ALSO precisely add to the section "below " it ( midrange, or in a two-way, the woofer ).

3) Do not allow the cap bodies to touch each other, or any other crossover parts, as all parts develop different fields which we want to avoid interacting.

4) After doing this, IF you notice any "holes" in a linear playback, P.M. me, and we can discuss this, with the idea of finding another uF value to fill in any perceived "hole".

Start ....... with the four Mundorf 0.22 uF Silver and Oil capacitors for midrange playback enhancement. Listen to that. LOL. You will be hooked - for life.

Please report back to me, and F.M.s, as to your personal listening experiences. YOU get to be the judge. Don't take someone else's word, or a You Tube video! You judge it - in your home, for yourself, on your own. Enjoy !!

This is the DIY section. Do something !!!


Jeff
 
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Here is the BOM & price for upgrading the resistors and inductors. shipping and custom duty on actuals. Aircore inductors has higher DCR (50% more of same AWG wire) compared to Ironcore ones, to compensate endup increasing the gauge value. for eg 1mm ironcore inductor DCR come close to 1.5mm Aircore DCR. Note sure how it will fit in the existing Xover board.
View attachment 61329


And I see Dentons use the same cap for tweeter crossover.

View attachment 61330
Hey, Did you ever make progress on the Lintons? Just I thought, I would keep it simple with the DENTON/Lintons You'll never fit 10 watt surperes and the air coils in there. It'll be a rats nest. Keep it simple. Replace the resistors with 5W wirewounds like Mills or Ohmite. Replace teh 6.8 with a Mundorf EVO maybe a EVO oil for small bypass and or Solen 6.8 SB film and foil and similar bypass. If you want to get crazy replace the other big yellow mylars with Claritycap PX and the electrolytic with Jantzen ELKOs. You be very pleased. There's always the one guy sayn "-you need Dulend copper foils and move the crossovers outboard..." Don't be that guy. Don't try to fit toilet paper roll sized capacitors into your bookshelf speakers...
 
Hello DK,

OK, I just came across your post. No, I am not a speaker designer, nor am I any crossover expert. I have been building tube amps, and have had two fabulous audio mentors over the decades, to learn from. What I have learned about amps, and tube amp design and modding, in regards to capacitors and resistors, similarly applies to crossovers IMHO.

After a lifetime of audio chasing, I now have a very simple system, a two way speaker, both drivers horn loaded, having over 101 dB efficiency. So I would never own Wharfdale Lintons and such, even though they may sound nice.

Why ?? I want to own and use a system that will play well, on 2 Watt or less tube amps I can design and build. These are the best sounding audio amps to my ears, and it is my preferred way to achieve a high performance. Start with a good 101 dB or higher speaker, preferably a two way with a 15 inch woofer. Preferably, ......both drivers horn loaded.

Crossovers for my two-way speaker have been 12 dB octave Butterworth, at about 800 Hz.

As I learn things, I make changes. Here is what my crossovers looked like in 2018, three years ago :

First of all NO PC boards, all Military Spec wiring ( m22759/11 ) is installed, Pictured next, below, is low loss WIRING MAINLY, before the caps are added :

View attachment 61274

Now, where I differ from almost all other people in audio is in my understanding and use of multiple film caps, ( where almost everyone else employs a single cap ). In your schematic to the Linton tweeter, we see use of 6.8 uF and an a 15 uF cap, in series with the audio signal. While those Wharfdale values may be necessary, to get a certain frequency of crossover-driver filtering, there is no way, in a million years, that such size caps are capable of playing High Frequency MUSIC information in an acceptable manner.

Cap basics: The smaller the uF value of a cap, generally speaking, the higher in frequency it responds and plays back music to us. Conversely, the larger the cap, the less it will play back to us the midrange to the highest frequencies, in any ALL-OUT manner.

It takes multiple film caps, each of a successively smaller uF size, to obtain the FULLEST of fidelity, from any single cap position !! Only about 1-to-5% of the people in this world know this, and only about 1% of that small group, KNOW what values to use, to multiple film bypass caps properly . ( It is all done by ear , listening to music. )

So, where " everyone " has ONE capacitor in a crossover, I might have EIGHT high quality film caps, of successively smaller uF values. Each uF size plays a different part of the spectrum, and ALL are needed, and determined by ear, so as not to have any non linear playback ( holes ) in one's by-ear-perceived frequency response.

No friends, I am not pulling your legs. Here is what " ONE capacitor spot" looks like, close up, on what I prototype . Look :

View attachment 61273


Now, it gets better !! What you do for bypassing a single cap position for the tweeter, you MUST use the same cap arrangement for the midrange driver section - below the tweeter !! That way, they blend perfectly, harmonically, and at the highest play-back level for each driver's range of play back.

This shot below will show TWO " SINGLE CAP POSITIONS" ( with equal multiple caps in each position ) for my tweeter and for my woofer, an early 800Hz crossover, later improved upon.. Again, I am not joking around here , SEE :


View attachment 61272 " What you do with multiple film cap bypassing to one section ( the tweeter ) , you also precisely do to the other section ( woofer ) " It is costly !!


In about early 2020, I did the ultimate crossover mod, to the woofer in my two way ALTEC speaker system. What is that ?? I eliminated the crossover to the woofer completely, and allowed the lovely-sounding 515B fifteen inch woofer to play full range !! KISS rules in ultra high end audio. No crossover on the woofer, to degrade it's inherent performance. It is superior, no comparison. Half the crossover parts on the above photos are GONE !! :)

In 2021, I installed a better L-Pad to reduce the signal level to my tweeter. In mid 2021, I totally eliminated the entire L-Pad, and replaced it, not with a single-value high-sound-quality resistor, but with special resistance wire, 4 and 3/8 ths inches long did it . ( Constantan and Manganin wire ).

What to do with your Linton Wharfdales?? Well, it's a totally huge project !!!! The crossover has to be made four times larger, come out of the box, and you need a year of so of futzing, assuming you KNEW what uF values play in what music range, .........which you don't. And you can't use a 1.5 Watt SE tube amp on it when you are done. :-(

No, I will not do a video. People won't get it. Audio people have not " gotten it " in audio amps, after 30+ years of me trying, and I am not too confident when it comes to speakers !!


Jeff
Is that really green astro-turf as veneer on your speakers? You astro-turfed your speakers??
 
Hello DK,

OK, I just came across your post. No, I am not a speaker designer, nor am I any crossover expert. I have been building tube amps, and have had two fabulous audio mentors over the decades, to learn from. What I have learned about amps, and tube amp design and modding, in regards to capacitors and resistors, similarly applies to crossovers IMHO.

After a lifetime of audio chasing, I now have a very simple system, a two way speaker, both drivers horn loaded, having over 101 dB efficiency. So I would never own Wharfdale Lintons and such, even though they may sound nice.

Why ?? I want to own and use a system that will play well, on 2 Watt or less tube amps I can design and build. These are the best sounding audio amps to my ears, and it is my preferred way to achieve a high performance. Start with a good 101 dB or higher speaker, preferably a two way with a 15 inch woofer. Preferably, ......both drivers horn loaded.

Crossovers for my two-way speaker have been 12 dB octave Butterworth, at about 800 Hz.

As I learn things, I make changes. Here is what my crossovers looked like in 2018, three years ago :

First of all NO PC boards, all Military Spec wiring ( m22759/11 ) is installed, Pictured next, below, is low loss WIRING MAINLY, before the caps are added :

View attachment 61274

Now, where I differ from almost all other people in audio is in my understanding and use of multiple film caps, ( where almost everyone else employs a single cap ). In your schematic to the Linton tweeter, we see use of 6.8 uF and an a 15 uF cap, in series with the audio signal. While those Wharfdale values may be necessary, to get a certain frequency of crossover-driver filtering, there is no way, in a million years, that such size caps are capable of playing High Frequency MUSIC information in an acceptable manner.

Cap basics: The smaller the uF value of a cap, generally speaking, the higher in frequency it responds and plays back music to us. Conversely, the larger the cap, the less it will play back to us the midrange to the highest frequencies, in any ALL-OUT manner.

It takes multiple film caps, each of a successively smaller uF size, to obtain the FULLEST of fidelity, from any single cap position !! Only about 1-to-5% of the people in this world know this, and only about 1% of that small group, KNOW what values to use, to multiple film bypass caps properly . ( It is all done by ear , listening to music. )

So, where " everyone " has ONE capacitor in a crossover, I might have EIGHT high quality film caps, of successively smaller uF values. Each uF size plays a different part of the spectrum, and ALL are needed, and determined by ear, so as not to have any non linear playback ( holes ) in one's by-ear-perceived frequency response.

No friends, I am not pulling your legs. Here is what " ONE capacitor spot" looks like, close up, on what I prototype . Look :

View attachment 61273


Now, it gets better !! What you do for bypassing a single cap position for the tweeter, you MUST use the same cap arrangement for the midrange driver section - below the tweeter !! That way, they blend perfectly, harmonically, and at the highest play-back level for each driver's range of play back.

This shot below will show TWO " SINGLE CAP POSITIONS" ( with equal multiple caps in each position ) for my tweeter and for my woofer, an early 800Hz crossover, later improved upon.. Again, I am not joking around here , SEE :


View attachment 61272 " What you do with multiple film cap bypassing to one section ( the tweeter ) , you also precisely do to the other section ( woofer ) " It is costly !!


In about early 2020, I did the ultimate crossover mod, to the woofer in my two way ALTEC speaker system. What is that ?? I eliminated the crossover to the woofer completely, and allowed the lovely-sounding 515B fifteen inch woofer to play full range !! KISS rules in ultra high end audio. No crossover on the woofer, to degrade it's inherent performance. It is superior, no comparison. Half the crossover parts on the above photos are GONE !! :)

In 2021, I installed a better L-Pad to reduce the signal level to my tweeter. In mid 2021, I totally eliminated the entire L-Pad, and replaced it, not with a single-value high-sound-quality resistor, but with special resistance wire, 4 and 3/8 ths inches long did it . ( Constantan and Manganin wire ).

What to do with your Linton Wharfdales?? Well, it's a totally huge project !!!! The crossover has to be made four times larger, come out of the box, and you need a year of so of futzing, assuming you KNEW what uF values play in what music range, .........which you don't. And you can't use a 1.5 Watt SE tube amp on it when you are done. :-(

No, I will not do a video. People won't get it. Audio people have not " gotten it " in audio amps, after 30+ years of me trying, and I am not too confident when it comes to speakers !!


Jeff
Hey Jeff, you obviously have a lot of time into your crossover. Multi cap someyears back atemped the the Multi-cap/multi-size method and it was never a very good sounding cap. Have you considered simplifying your crossover with as few but high quality components? You'd eliminate a lot of wire and a lot of unnecessary solder connections. Just a thought...
 
Hey Jeff, you obviously have a lot of time into your crossover. Multi cap someyears back atemped the the Multi-cap/multi-size method and it was never a very good sounding cap. Have you considered simplifying your crossover with as few but high quality components? You'd eliminate a lot of wire and a lot of unnecessary solder connections. Just a thought...
When adding multiple film cap bypassing to any "main" cap.:

1) you have to first know, precisely what uF values play in what frequency / music ranges.

2) Next, you have to use high quality film caps, and

3) You have to listen, after cap break in, for any non linear playback. You must honestly ask yourself how does the bypassing effect your ability to listen to the amp ( or speaker ) , for hours on end during any given day ??

4) If there are any areas where the response shows a depression, a drop-out, or is not playing ALL the musical instruments properly, you have to figure out the uF value(s) needed, and also get the right kind of cap, to fill in that value and any range(s) needing augmentation.

5) It often takes a LARGE BUDGET - to purchase quality caps to do this well.

The only person who I know of, and would trust to do this, is Dennis Fraker from Montana, USA. He, to me, is easily bypassing's only real expert.

That you had a unresolved problem, and you were not working closely with Dennis for assistance, comes as no surprise to me.

Your power amplifier also should be ideally wired and bypassed - to hear what is going on at the speaker.

You are not the first, nor the last I am aware of, that tried and couldn't get it to go. But honestly, that does not mean it can't be done.
 
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When adding multiple film cap bypassing to any "main" cap.:

1) you have to first know, precisely what uF values play in what frequency / music ranges.

2) Next, you have to use high quality film caps, and

3) You have to listen, after cap break in, for any non linear playback. You must honestly ask yourself how does the bypassing effect your ability to listen to the amp ( or speaker ) , for hours on end during any given day ??

4) If there are any areas where the response shows a depression, a drop-out, or is not playing ALL the musical instruments properly, you have to figure out the uF value(s) needed, and also get the right kind of cap, to fill in that value and any range(s) needing augmentation.

5) It often takes a LARGE BUDGET - to purchase quality caps to do this well.

The only person who I know of, and would trust to do this, is Dennis Fraker from Montana, USA. He, to me, is easily bypassing's only real expert.

That you had a unresolved problem, and you were not working closely with Dennis for assistance, comes as no surprise to me.

Your power amplifier also should be ideally wired and bypassed - to hear what is going on at the speaker.

You are not the first, nor the last I am aware of, that tried and couldn't get it to go. But honestly, that does not mean it can't be done.
Right.... What I'm saying is have you considered trying removing the 8 caps in you pic that look to total 5.033 uf and simply replace it with a single 5uf film & Foil? (Like a Solan SB or Audyn Copper Max etc.) If you really think it will make a dif add an a additional .03 bypass cap. Think of all the solder joints you will remove from your signal path!
 
I prefer to get a new crossover. I don't have time for that, so Decided to leave xover as it is. If I have time I may solder the wires to drivers.
I understand the time issues. I just upgraded the crossovers in pair of Kef R-300s. In mid project I decided to go a different (speaker) direction. However, the R-300s turned out very well. I simply upgraded the caps & resistors but kept all factory values. I'm turning my attention to the Wharfedale Lintons. I'm running a EL-84 powered tube amp or Pass Labs Aleph 3 so looking at speakers with larger drivers and higher sensitivity. I'm hoping the Lintons with crossover upgrads will be the poor mans Harbeth. I listen to mostly Jazz & classical and find I'm valuing low level dynamics. Good dynamics at lower listening levels. I'm currently upgrading a little pair of Wharfedale Diamond 220s just to see how much I can get out of them. I purchased them for $199 USD and my upgraded crossover parts total $130 USD. Basically, using Mudorf EVO and Claritycap PX with wirewound resistor upgrades. All will fit nicely in the factory crossover board. I'll post my experiences and will move to a pair of Lintons in couple months. Happy listening.
 
Right.... What I'm saying is have you considered trying removing the 8 caps in you pic that look to total 5.033 uf and simply replace it with a single 5uf film & Foil? (Like a Solan SB or Audyn Copper Max etc.) If you really think it will make a dif add an a additional .03 bypass cap. Think of all the solder joints you will remove from your signal pat I would not consider doing that.


I have considered and done in past years what you suggest - and today, I would not do that - at all.

The solder joint additions, in my experience, are of minute consequence, versus the large audible benefits I am able to obtain from my own really well-done multiple film cap bypassing.

Caps are the worst part in audio. No single film cap is able to play the entire music range optimally.

Adding a single 0.033 uF or 0.022 uF, will automatically leave holes in the music's presentation, as it is only optimizing the narrow range that that value plays in ( the lower treble.)

A single cap is totally boring for me to hear. It misses too much of the music, ( as to what sounds natural and real to me. ) But, as my previous post explains, you HAVE to bypass properly, and very few people in audio know how do this well.
 
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