Making baby steps into Hi-fi

^^^
Yes it is little strange. He actually likes music very much.

To tell you more, when he was unborn he would start kicking when he'd hear songs playing in the car.

Even now he sometimes sleeps with the mobile phone tucked under his head, while playing some music in the background. And yes he knows how to unlock the phone and browse to the music player :p
 
Hydra, I went through that Real Traps link you posted and the one thing that confuses me is the part about the triangle that needs to be created between listener and speakers.

In my setup, which is far from optimal, I find that not toe-ing the speakers in provides a much better sound-stage and centered imaging.

My speakers (floorstanders) are set up this way:

Distance of left speaker from rear wall is 2.5ft while right speaker is 1.5ft. There is a load-bearing pillar in my living room, unfortunately. The distance from the speakers to the listening position is about 8ft while the distance between the speakers is about 9ft.

So, at no point does any sort of a triangle get formed. I really need to pull the speakers away from the wall to reduce the bass. It took me quite a few weeks to get that right. Adding Ali's spikes helped too.

I may me moving this setup into a different room soon, which is much smaller than the current one and I want to know what the deal with toe-in is. Also, in all my auditions at ARN and LR, I've never seen any toe-in either. Is it something specific to bookshelves?
 
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I think the need for toe-in differs from speaker to speaker, and then from room to room. And it also depends on the listening position (distance from speakers). I don't think the need for toe in or the lack of it depends on the type of speaker.

In my very limited experience with trying to get my setup right, I found that all those rules of room placement can only be used as a starting point. None of those room placement techniques worked for me out of the box, so to speak.

I started off trying the rule of thirds and abandoned it halfway as the way my room and the furniture I couldn't get rid of were, I couldn't place the speakers or my listening position right.

The cardas calculations didn't result in a satisfactory positioning, but a bit of variation from the results of the formula sounded much better to me.

Finally I tried the real traps technique, and though sticking to the exact percentage didn't sound good, a slight variation of it worked.

As far as toeing-in in my setup is concerned, full on toeing-in results in the music sound too aggressive. Zero toeing-in made some of the background instrumentation make the speakers too "visible" and the center image too weak. The center image is better with full on toe in, but I compromised with about 40% less toe in than 100%. This means that just like in your case, the long part of the isoceles triangle closes about 2 feet behind my head.

In your current setup, going by just the distances, I think the speakers are a bit too far apart considering your listening position. Maybe bringing them a bit closer, after considering the other non-hifi factors, might sound better.

You might also try toeing in just a bit, trying to arrive at a compromise between soundstage width, center image definition and soundstage depth.

IMHO, the steps in room placement should be as follows:
1) Get the relationship between the speakers and the walls behind them and to their sides right (using a listening position equal to, or about 10 to 20% more than the distance between the speakers).

2) Further tweak the distance between speakers in relation to the temporary listening position.

3) Get the distance between your listening position and the speakers right by changing the listening position.

4) Get the toe-in right (or finally decide toe-in is not needed).

5) Revisit step 2.

6) Fix reflections on the floor and the side walls to the extent practicable. Usually the floor is easily fixed. The side walls are another story. I'm not even thinking about the ceiling or the wall behind the speakers.

About the distance between you and the wall behind you, that will be a result of all this. I don't think we can really account for that also considering we are more concerned with (clearing) the furniture and other things in front of us.

All this is IMHO, what I've learned from a lot of reading and a bit of practice in my case.

Sorry for a really long post (as usual). I really should try and be more succinct :)
 
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Thanks Hydra! Most useful. I am in more of a conundrum now since I need to move my stereo setup into a smaller room. It's about 12ft square. It took me a long time to bring the bass under control in the 30x25 room I had it in before so God alone will be able to help me set this up.

Of course, God in this case could mean Spatial Computer but who has 4000USD to spare? Not me! :eek:

Thanks anyway, I will keep these pointers in mind when I start setting up in the new room.
 
My Music-PC's motherboard has kicked the bucket. It started shutting down by itself, after the CPU temps started going sky high.

I took the board to the MSI support center here today, and it seems the Fusion boards have never come to my city yet. The techs were oohing and aahing over the board (they've never seen a Fusion board before). Unfortunately for me, this means I'll have to wait for a replacement to be sent over :(

This comes at a really bad time, as I bought a Rega DAC online from the UK last week :) , and it is on its way to me right now. I'll hopefully get it by the weekend if all goes well. I'll have to run it with the WDTV when I get it, if there is a delay with the motherboard replacement :(
 
^^
A) I'll need to sell the Caiman once the Rega DAC comes in. That means I'll lose the headphone amp. My headphone usage is rare, but I do prefer to have a headphone amp for those occasions. And I also quite like the STX's "movie mode" (for recent movies) while using the headphone amp.

B) I may not limit my sources to just the PC. In case I get an SB Touch or something like that in the future (the siren song of internet radio is calling me with increasing intensity), I'll need my DAC to be able to work with it. The extra coaxial-in and optical-in of the Rega will let me connect nearly any device that gives a digital-out.

These two were very specific reasons. Now, I do have a couple of other reasons that may not appear to be quite logical/scientific, but are important to me:

1) I have seen what the analogue-out of the STX can do. It does do a very good job, but over time, to me, it has started sounding a bit thin (and dare I say "digital"). I'd like quite a bit more body to the music. It is also too detailed for my taste. From what I've read about the Rega DAC, it can make a digital source sound quite "analogue". All the user reviews have been quite consistent in describing the signature sound and I really liked what I read.

2) I'm not totally sold on the "digital-is-digital" school of thought. I take no sides here and prefer to go by personal experience.

From my experience with the two digital sources I've used (WDTV and the Music-PC), the final result while using the same FLAC file, the same DAC and the same Amp-Speaker combo (Caiman) sounds quite different. That is,

FLAC via WDTV's optical out > Optical cable > Caiman > NAD326 > PSB Image B6

vs.

FLAC via STX's coaxial out > Coaxial cable > Caiman > NAD326 > PSB Image B6

... sound quite different. Yes, the digital cables used, and the type of interfaces are different (Coaxial and Optical). But then, if digital is digital that shouldn't matter, right? But these two setups do sound different to me.

What I'm coming to here is that going by the above experience, it is possible that the motherboard's digital out and the STX's digital out will sound different to me. And between the two, I'd rather put my money on the STX's digital out.

3) I'm not really fan of USB DACs. I wanted a DAC that would give its best sounding output from the coaxial input. The Rega does that. And considering my experience in the point above, I prefer to take the coaxial digital output of the STX.

:)
 
Hydra, did you buy the Fusion board online? Sorry about the hiccup! Hope you get the replacement soon.
 
Hydra

Sorry to hear about the motherboard. I hope you get a replacement soon. I try to follow your hi fi adventures, but beyond a point I start feeling 'lost' as I am not familiar with some of the stuff you are doing :)

Some of it seems unnecessarily long winded and complicated to me. Personally I always look for a simple approach requiring minimum amount of implementation. Something like:

Rip your music into lossless files. Transfer the music to an external hard disc drive. Connect the drive to an SB Touch using the USB port. Connect the SB Touch directly to the amplifier using a decent pair of single ended RCA's. Basically that's it.

You may find that you do not need anything else in the chain. No computer and no DAC. With a good amp, speakers and cables, the SB Touch can give sensational results. I doubt whether a Caiman or a Rega Dac can output better sound than the SB Touch. And the Touch has a headphone out which sounds divine with my basic HD180 Sennheiser headphones.
 
I doubt whether a Caiman or a Rega Dac can output better sound than the SB Touch.

Whoa! Really? Maybe the Caiman but certainly the Rega will be better than the Touch? My Duet has a very decent Wolfson implementation but with RoC's AZ-1 Custom NOS DAC, I heard a world of difference. Now, I know the Touch has an even better DAC than the Duet but I am skeptical that the Touch will match the Rega, let alone better it. That is not to say that the SB series of devices aren't superb. Just that I personally think that a dedicated PC and DAC is the way to go for me.

Hydra - which website did you order it from? I'm interested too.
 
Thanks, guys!

@iaudio, yes, I'd bought the Fusion board online. I bought it from Theitdepot - India's First IT Online Shopping Store. Since I'd bought it within India, the MSI Center had no issues giving me warranty support locally (BIG relief!). They didn't even want to see the invoice! (I guess the board's serial number was in their database with the necessary details.) They told me that they usually give a replacement board immediately on receipt of the damaged board, if it is in stock.

@ajay, I was actually planning to go the SB Touch way itself initially. (I was actually quite scared/overwhelmed with the Music PC thing then.) But there were too many reports online about the Touch having issues with USB HDDs. There wasn't anybody I knew who'd tried it with a HDD at the time I was doing my research either. I didn't want to set up a NAS/Server (which seems to be the best way of feeding the SB Touch) at that time either.

Now I'm also spoilt with having a big screen and a great interface to move around my music library. Going back to the WDTV for music feels like I've got my right hand tied behind my back.

Yes, the SB Touch seems to have a very good DAC. It might trump the Caiman but I'm sure the Rega will do better :)

I still haven't actually got over my infatuation with the SB Touch. I recently got my man-cave hooked up with a nice Wifi setup, so now I've got all the things in place for Internet Radio. Must... resist... temptation... :D
 
hydra

The Touch works beautifully with a hard disc drive. Better SQ than a wi fi connection.

The Touch is not, repeat not, an entry level mass market product. It may cost only 16K, but based on the SQ I get when I connect it directly to my amp and speakers, it is a superb sounding source. If somebody is getting merely 'decent' sound with the Touch, then he is doing something wrong. Or he does not have good equipment down stream.
 
That's good to know, Ajay!

There is quite a bit of lack of specific information surrounding the HDD issue, so a firm opinion is good to have. If I'd got a firm position on the USB HDD issue, like your post above, I might very well have gone in for the SB Touch. Wish you'd bought your SB Touch earlier :p

Are you using a 2.5" USB-powered HDD or a 3.5" external drive with a separate power supply?

In other news, I just took delivery of these:





The Audioquest preamp jumpers will replace the factory metal preamp jumper U-rings on the NAD.
 
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Hydra

I always look for a simple approach requiring minimum amount of implementation.
Exactly my thoughts. Hooking up a DAC in the chain is so complex with all those wires cluttered all around the room.

With my newly acquired SB Touch things are lot more simple.

Rip your music into lossless files. Transfer the music to an external hard disc drive. Connect the drive to an SB Touch using the USB port. Connect the SB Touch directly to the amplifier using a decent pair of single ended RCA's. Basically that's it.
I would disagree a little here. I definitely think that I'll require a DAC to use in conjunction with the touch. The sound quality is acceptable but nowhere close to the rDAC that I sold (to buy this touch :p). The differences are blatantly evident in my case. The bass seems like the lower band is totally cutoff. The attack is terribly missing. The highs seem to be ok but again lack the subtle texture the rDAC showed. The mids is where I am taking the biggest hit. They are full of sibilance and the texture has suffered a lot.

But overall the advantages offered by the touch will make you fall in love with the little device. Things are lot more organized, lot more freed up now. And the added dimension of controlling your music from a distance, by using the remote is just great.

Again I'd repeat that I might not feel the need to jump on to a new DAC so soon but I surely feel the need to use one to get best out of the component chain.
 
Hydra

I bought a WD Essentials My Book from Flipkart. External HDD with a separate power adaptor. A USB power supply would have placed unnecessary load on the SB Touch.

I had begun an SB Touch thread on another forum. You can go through to it for more information.

The Sqeezebox thread
 
The Touch is not, repeat not, an entry level mass market product. It may cost only 16K, but based on the SQ I get when I connect it directly to my amp and speakers, it is a superb sounding source. If somebody is getting merely 'decent' sound with the Touch, then he is doing something wrong. Or he does not have good equipment down stream.

Not sure if this was meant for me Ajay, but I'd like to state that I wholeheartedly agree with you. My Duet is also connected directly to my amp. The SQ is much more than decent and for their price all the SB devices are exceptional. I just think that the sound can be bettered, albeit at a considerable expense.

My biggest peeves with the Duet are that the remote gets a little tiresome to use in a long session and the web control is just plain ineffective. For my setup, I will end up getting an audio PC with Foobar and a good DAC. If, for some reason, I end up sticking with the Duet because of its quite excellent music streaming capabilities, I will need to invest in some sort of a remote. I have been looking to upgrade my cell phone to an Android so maybe the appropriate app will fix the remote/web interface issue. Then all that remains is to get a better DAC than is on the Duet and all is well.

This hobby is spendy.
 
Bluu

Replacing the Duet with a Touch will give you a better DAC and a very effective and comfortable remote.
 
The courier-guy came a-visiting about an hour back :yahoo:



Today is a bad-hair day at office, so there's no way I'll get some alone-time with it till late night. I did manage to go home and admire it a bit.

Right out of the box:


After peeling off protective film:


The rear:


It feels as solid as a hunk of metal. Very well-put-together. And heavy too!

I don't think I'll sleep a wink tonight :eek:hyeah:
 
Purchase the Audiolab 6000A Integrated Amplifier at a special offer price.
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