Many SENIORS are still buying FS. Are they not convinced a good BS+SUB is a better choice ???

[Naveenbnc]

Actually after seeing Sajjad's system, I got clarity on 2 things.

1. Its is not at all easy to integrate a sub to such a well set system.
2. For the first time I clearly observed the concept of sweet spot.

 

[Naveenbnc]

I would definitely buy a floor stander, if I had the room for one. I love quality bass and this is a easier achieved with a large speaker driver. Design is also critical. You also have to remember that a large speaker needs space to breathe. If you do not give them that, they will fail miserably.

I have had a really good experience with stand mount speakers. My very modest PSB Image B15 is possibly the cheapest speaker from PSB and they sound so full. I did not feel the need for a sub woofer. At the other under of the spectrum was my Blumenhofer Genuin FS5. What a speaker!

A sub woofer in a stereo set up is a whole different ball game. For the amount of money you will have to put in on a sub (cause it better be a really good one. I'm talking REL, Rythmik, etc), you'd much rather steer that to the main speaker itself. It has to integrate so well that you do not even know that its there and that is no easy task. The bass should sound as if it is coming from the main speakers and not the sub woofer.

No such thing that seasoned listeners prefer floor standing speakers.

I saw a couple of bookshelfs .... Out of them the best one was Kef Q300. (I mean...within the models i saw till now). They beat my budget towers TagaTav606se in many ways. Seeing things in that perspective, I'm pretty sure there are better bookshelfs than towers and vice versa. It all depends on different brands and their models.

But now I got clarity on what suits me. !!

 

[sandeepmohan]

They beat my budget towers TagaTav606se in many ways.

There are a lot of companies like TAGA making speaker package that are for price conscious customers. They are alright to start with but you will realize their short comings pretty soon and once you start listening to established players in Hi Fi. You will notice a lot of common driver sharing between the speakers too. That is how they keep costs low. This is not a bad thing when designed well but in a lot of cases it isn't. There is hardly any mass to the cabinet too. Sure; you can have a nice big floor stander but I doubt if there is any attention payed to the quality of the drivers, design of the cross over and making the best use of the internal cabinet volume. This is where they all fall short.

The KEF Q300 is a stellar speaker.

 

[Krishroy2004]

The KEF Q300 is a stellar speaker.

Some info on KEF Q300

 

[Naveenbnc]

Some info on KEF Q300


View attachment 28470

That's a very detailed review !!!
Thanks a lot for sharing

 

[cha_indian]

The problem with using a 2.1 setup is that the bass gets un-musical. It all sounds good while watching an action movie, but definitely not musical bass. There will be low bass and initially you will love it... but as time moves on, you might get tired of sudden bass booms! IMO it is smart to better buy a tower speaker package that sounds sweet at mids.

 

[smedhavi]

How to resist this ??!! ... Music 4 ever .... What is the sensitivity of your 15" DIY speakers?

Woofer (Eminence Alpha-15A): Sensitivity97 dB 1W/1m
Full-range (Audio Nirvana Super 15"): 95.7bB
Tweeter (Fountek NEO CD3 Ribbon): 93dB

Though it doesn't matter that much in my case as they have their own dedicated gain matched amplification.

Regards,
Sharad Medhavi

 

[smedhavi]

Some info on KEF Q300


View attachment 28470

How do we know whether this choice was made for mere cost savings, or a simpler crossover really worked better in the coaxial setup; may be due to less phase issues. Just giving them the benefit of doubt I look forward to comments from experts.

Meanwhile @Naveenbnc could decide based on what he likes while playing his favorite music. Most of the modern music has gone through enough phase mutilation before it lands on the track. I definitely prefer the network-less single full-range driver based speakers for vintage analog recordings (if you have the original pressings and care for that music).
Right now, I am rediscovering my digital music on a filter-less NOS DAC

 

[Krishroy2004]

How do we know whether this choice was made for mere cost savings, or a simpler crossover really worked better in the coaxial setup; may be due to less phase issues. Just giving them the benefit of doubt I look forward to comments from experts.

Yes, experts can comment better on this.

 

[hifitoaster]

First order crossover is cheap. Agree. why do we need crossover? to the frequencies to the drivers appropriate frequencies. If the driver itself has natural slopes and curves to compensate needs of 18 db slope it is a better design as a speaker. There is no rule that only higher order crossover is betteer. best speaker is a speaker without a crossover to me. it will have less parts to waste power. a small amplifier can run them. complicated crossover is a dirty trick to compensate inability of designing a capable driver or a cabin or a way to create a market for big power amplifiers

 

[hifitoaster]

"Many SENIORS are still buying FS. Are they not convinced a good BS+SUB is a better choice ???" this is a fact, SOMETIMES at certain price ranges and in certain rooms and what is available in your place.

 

[sandeepmohan]

Some info on KEF Q300

I wonder what the reviewer was expecting on a $650 speaker.

Instead of prying open a speaker to prove that it is krapp, first listen to it. It is not for nothing the Q300 is among the best stand mounts you can buy today.

 

[hifitoaster]

I wonder what the reviewer was expecting on a $650 speaker.

Instead of prying open a speaker to prove that it is krapp, first listen to it. It is not for nothing the Q300 is among the best stand mounts you can buy today.

a second order croosver has just another set of capacitors and inductors which may add up to 10$ more. (They buy as bulk) even if they raise the price by 20$ a potential buyer won't back out because of this hefty 20 bucks, if he has made up his mind for spending around 600. That crossover is there for a reason, a higher order doesn't always mean better quality.

If it was not the case, the full range speakers should have not been a sensible idea in any case.

 

[mpw]

a second order croosver has just another set of capacitors and inductors which may add up to 10$ more. (They buy as bulk) even if they raise the price by 20$ a potential buyer won't back out because of this hefty 20 bucks, if he has made up his mind for spending around 600. That crossover is there for a reason, a higher order doesn't always mean better quality.

If it was not the case, the full range speakers should have not been a sensible idea in any case.

Hi Hifitoaster

What are you trying to say ?

Can you be more simpler so I can understand

Regards

 

[hifitoaster]

Hi Hifitoaster

What are you trying to say ?

Can you be more simpler so I can understand

Regards

Kef q 300 price as per the review 650$
As per the reviewer it has 1st order crossover. Cost of the current parts can be around 25 $ at the max.. As per the image a capacitor resistor and an inductor is only there. Say you change it to a second order. http://www.erseaudio.com/CrossoverCalculators/Second-Order-2-Way

you don't need more than 2 capacitors in this case, also resistor can be the same sjngle wire wound of a different value which won't totally increase the coat of manufacturing by another 10$ Since companies order the caps in bulk quantities. This is achievable.

As a buyer, if I am ready to spend around 600 bucks another 20 -30 dollar increase in price won't be an issue for me if the second order crossover in that is outperforming everything in its price class. But that doesn't happen. Kef is not dumb not to know how to make it complex, it's because for those driver and the box they know a complex thing is not needed or it won't improve it to an extent by which it can outclass its rivals or simply they did the drivers that way that it doesn't need a complex crossover.

 

[mpw]

Thank you.

I think quoted review is quite silly.

There is a price performance ratio for most branded products.

The price performance ratio can be transcended only by properly done DiY... But this is another topic altogether

Regards

 

[hifitoaster]

Thank you.

I think quoted review is quite silly.

There is a price performance ratio for most branded products.

The price performance ratio can be transcended only by properly done DiY... But this is another topic altogether

Regards

Thats true. But in the case of kef, they have the advantage of their know-how of their uni-q. They can make them cheap, but we can't buy them off the shelf. That being said, there are lot of great "sounds" Other than uni-q to build.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Looks like a series type crossover to me. The resistor could have been a little better non-inductive WW instead of cement type though BENNIC.

 

[Hari Iyer]

To get a sub to integrate well with speakers. There are two things that have to match in my humble opinion :

1. Both the sub and speakers need to have the same tone of bass at the cross over frequency. Usually the 5.1 speaker packages designed by audio companies work a charm. Because the manufacturer, has considered the ideal cross over frequency range likely to be used, and will tune the included sub to have the same tone at those similar cross over frequencies. So the transition of bass from speaker to sub woofer is seamless. And one cannot make out by listening alone if the bass is still coming from main speakers or the sub.

2. Both need to have the same speed. Usually warm sounding speakers are made warm sounding by having a slower bass response. These speakers ideally match in speed with subs of driver sizes of 12 inches and above. Forward sounding speakers usually have small mid range drivers and are fast sounding. These ideally need subs of 10 inches or even 8 inches driver size to match in speed. If I were to consider adding a sub for music to my main speakers having a 7 inch bass driver, I would consider subs with twin 8 inch driver size and not a sub with a single 15 inch driver.

3. This third point is the most complex. Not many amps come with the flexibility to properly integrate a sub. Most are just two speaker out binding posts with a sub out, which is basically a full range pre out. So despite adding a sub to these pre-outs, the main speakers are still receiving a full range signal. So the bass is being provided by both the speakers and the sub. And unless point 1 and 2 above are achieved, otherwise the bass will still sound like coming from two different sources.

So ideally a amp with low pass limited is required and there are not many on the market with that facility, with the parasound halo Integrated being an exception.

A well integrated 2.1 system will anyway blow away a pure 2.0 system. But all the 3 above points have to be satisfied to get that integration. Thanks

You forgot the crucial part - Phase integration between the fronts and the sub.

 

[Hari Iyer]

It depends on individual taste. I have 10 inch woofers but still use a sub

Totally agree. I used a 8" full ranger in an OB, yet do not use a subwoofer.