mpeg-4 Vs mp3

[nandac]

i had originally ripped a bunch of CDs on itunes in mpeg-4 format for loading into an ipod.

then later getting a sansa fuze, i had converted this bunch of mpeg-4 files into mp3 using itunes. now i don't want both - i want to free up space.

i think mp3 is playable on both ipods as well as other "mp3" players.

so i can safely delete/let go off the mpeg-4 files, right?

just want to make sure i am not missing anything here.

appreciate any insights.

 

[gryph0n]

I believe iPods use AAC natively, though this might be wrapped up in a MP4 container.

You said you converted from this to MP3. That was a bad idea since both, AAC is a lossy format, and MP3 is also a lossy format.

Like in the old days, if you had a VCR tape, and made a copy of original, and then made a copy of the copy, the quality would have degraded a bit on 1st copy and more on the 2nd copy. If you continued down that path, at some point you'll end up with only grainy snow on the tape. Its similar to how audio quality would be lost when converting from one lossy format to another lossy format.

When converting to a lossy format, always try to ensure that source is non-lossy.

I'd suggest ripping your CDs to non-lossy formats onto your hard disk: FLAC, ALAC (Apple Lossless), or plain WAVs. Then, you can use the non-lossy files for converting into lossy formats like AAC, or MP3.

Of these formats, WAV probably has highest compatibility with most software, but it consumes huge space. FLAC is probably the best since it has better compatibility than ALAC, and the data is zipped to reduce space consumption.

Since you want to use MP3 on both your devices, what i'd suggest is:
1. Discard both, your AAC & MP3 files
2. Rip your CDs again to FLAC on your HDD
3. Convert from FLAC to MP3

 

[technobhatt]

I believe iPods use AAC natively, though this might be wrapped up in a MP4 container.

You said you converted from this to MP3. That was a bad idea since both, AAC is a lossy format, and MP3 is also a lossy format.

Like in the old days, if you had a VCR tape, and made a copy of original, and then made a copy of the copy, the quality would have degraded a bit on 1st copy and more on the 2nd copy. If you continued down that path, at some point you'll end up with only grainy snow on the tape. Its similar to how audio quality would be lost when converting from one lossy format to another lossy format.

When converting to a lossy format, always try to ensure that source is non-lossy.

I'd suggest ripping your CDs to non-lossy formats onto your hard disk: FLAC, ALAC (Apple Lossless), or plain WAVs. Then, you can use the non-lossy files for converting into lossy formats like AAC, or MP3.

Of these formats, WAV probably has highest compatibility with most software, but it consumes huge space. FLAC is probably the best since it has better compatibility than ALAC, and the data is zipped to reduce space consumption.

Since you want to use MP3 on both your devices, what i'd suggest is:
1. Discard both, your AAC & MP3 files
2. Rip your CDs again to FLAC on your HDD
3. Convert from FLAC to MP3

Thanks for sharing this.
I was such a noob, that I used to rip every Audio CD to MP3 format directly to play it on my iPod using Windows Media player (that's all I knew till I joined HifiVision)
However, now my iPod is dead, so I listen all the music directly on laptop via HeadPhone/Stereo speakers.

Still, I have a question in my mind... I think iPod can't play FLAC format. (I remember I had taken 'The Good The Bad The Ugly' soundtrack in FLAC format and it couldn't be added to iTunes).

Is there any lossless Audio Codec format, which can be played on iPod ?

 

[baijuxavior]

^^ Apple Lossless

 

[gryph0n]

^^ Apple Lossless

aka ALAC
Apple Lossless - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My understanding is that iTunes can encode Audio CDs to ALAC.

If you google around, you should be able to find transcoder software which can convert from FLAC to ALAC. In the worst case, convert FLAC to WAV, and WAV to ALAC; rather tedious but you won't loose anything in audio quality.

Using lossy codecs isn't that good idea on desktops where you will probably have a lot of free space to hold lossless formats.

But converting from one lossy format to another, like OP, is very bad, because 2nd encoding will lose a lot of audio data, than if directly encoded from FLAC/ALAC/WAV/AudioCD.

 

[nandac]

>Since you want to use MP3 on both your devices, what i'd suggest is:
>1. Discard both, your AAC & MP3 files
>2. Rip your CDs again to FLAC on your HDD
>3. Convert from FLAC to MP3

i just finished ripping my cd collection into flac.

btw each flac file is like 50 mb. if i convert it into mp3 what will the size of the file be? having files with huge sizes will not really work with a 30 gb mp3 player.

 

[Decibel]

Nandac,

CD quality sampling is done 44,100 times every second. If you take a 16 bit sample, each sample is 2 bytes in size. For stereo you will have 4 bytes per sample. Thus a 60 second music will have a size of 44100x4x60. This works out to 10584000, or roughly 10 MB. A three minute song will thus take 30MB of space.

Typically a FALC will take between 50-60% of the wave file size. So if you have a 50MB song in FLAC, it must at least be 10 minutes long, or you have made some mistake in conversion.

An MP3 typically take 1MB per minute of music. Thus a 3 minute song will take some 3-4 MB of space.

Cheers

 

[sound1]

>
btw each flac file is like 50 mb. if i convert it into mp3 what will the size of the file be? having files with huge sizes will not really work with a 30 gb mp3 player.

Usually FLAC will be 5 to 8 times the size of 320kbps mp3 vbr. If you encode it in m4a 256kbps I think you will save a lot more space without degrading sound quality.

Due to space crunch, I have converted most of the FLAC to m4a highest quality (400+ kbps vbr which is still an overkill). It has saved more than 50% space for me.
m4a offers much better sound quality than mp3 for the same file size (this is very noticeable at lower bit rates).
Of course this applies only if your player supports m4a.

And don't forget to use a good quality aac codec like nero or quicktime.

 

[gryph0n]

btw each flac file is like 50 mb.

Size of the FLAC file will depend on the length of the track, and the level of compression used (I think default is 5, max is 9), and how easy the audio is to be compressed.

Sampling my own collection, I see these filesizes from Pearl Jam's 'Ten' (Encoded using maximum compression, ie level 9).

Track 05. 5.44min = 35.6 MB
Track 07. 2.42min = 15.1 MB
Track 11. 9.03min = 48.6 MB

having files with huge sizes will not really work with a 30 gb mp3 player.

Well, that actually depends on how much you want to hear.

I have a Sansa Fuze with measly 8GB in-built memory, and i'm using FLAC on it most of the times. I have around 15 FLAC albums loaded, & 2 MP3 albums. I was initially thinking I might have to get an MicroSD card to carry around more music, but practical usage showed me that onboard itself would suffice for me. I still might get the card, but to be honest, the onboard 8GB can keep me content for portable needs.

However, I understand everyone is not the same. So I'd suggest using LAME encoder to convert from FLAC to MP3 to reduce filesize.
http://www.rarewares.org/mp3-lame-bundle.php#lame-current-sbd

LAME has a well regarded psychoacoustic model for MP3 encoding, however it's a commandline based tool. If you're not comfortable with the commandline, just use the LameDropXPd frontend. Drag & drop your FLAC/WAV files onto the LameDropXPd window, and it should create the MP3s in the same directory.
http://www.rarewares.org/mp3-lamedrop.php#lamedrop-current

if i convert it into mp3 what will the size of the file be?

The size of the MP3's will vary on the bitrates used. My encodings at 320kbps CBR (Constant Bit Rate) use around 2 MB per minute. However rather than using a CBR, I'd suggest using VBR (Variable Bit Rate) at V0 since it'll give you files of almost same quality as CBR but lower size. (Right click on the LameDropXPd window for encoding options).

m4a offers much better sound quality than mp3 for the same file size (this is very noticeable at lower bit rates).
Of course this applies only if your player supports m4a.

I believe he's going for MP3 because its compatible with all of his portable players. I might be wrong, but I think AAC is natively supported only on iDevices. Most other players either lack support entirely, or have to use 3rd party codecs.

Besides, the variances among codecs are 'distinct' only at lower bitrates, eg Vorbis & AAC are considered better than MP3 at 64kbps and lower. But at 256 or 320 kbps, the difference is practically negligible. So, as long as you're using decent bitrates, its better to look for the codec which has most support, ie MP3.

 

[gryph0n]

Due to space crunch, I have converted most of the FLAC to m4a highest quality (400+ kbps vbr which is still an overkill). It has saved more than 50% space for me.

Let me suggest this hyeah:. Get a professional grade audio editor. Audacity is a good one, and open-source & free too.

Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder

1. Open the original WAV/FLAC track.
2. Phase invert the original.
3. Open the same file, encoded to a lossy format (MP3, AAC, etc).
4. Play both tracks simultaneously.

Since source is phase inverted, it'll cancel out whatever is common with the encoded file. So basically what you hear is the difference, ie the stuff that the encoder has thrown out.

You might be surprised with the results. I know I was

 

[sound1]

This is a very interesting experiment! But don't you think it is to be expected out of any lossy codec?

Lossy codecs do discard a lot of audio information. For example in mp3 -- only single tone is retained if 2 tones are very closely related tones, very soft sounds are suppressed, minor transients around a massive transient are suppressed and so on. Idea is that our ears ignore these minor nuances anyway in the middle of music.

But if you just take out the delta and hear it out it is definitely audible. Question is can you differentiate b/w lossless and lossy version of a song.

I guess we all know the answer for that, don't we hyeah:

 

[gryph0n]

Question is can you differentiate b/w lossless and lossy version of a song.

I guess we all know the answer for that, don't we hyeah:

I'll agree that it won't be easy to differentiate when the lossy file is at sufficiently high bitrates. Personally, i think i'd have difficulty distinguishing 256kbps or higher MP3s from the original in a blind test

But once the source has been encoded to lossy format, the discarded data can never be brought back. So the lossy file is unsuited for any further modifications/encodings, because those can only further lose data. Like in OP's case, where AAC was converted to MP3.

So, for purposes of archiving, i'd always go for loss-less formats like FLAC/ALAC/APE/WavePack,etc. When archiving, you should store in a format where you can get back all the orginal data. So, for eg, if you were to accidentally scratch your CD, you can always recreate the CD with all of the original data from a loss-less format.

To me, lossy formats make sense on portable devices where memory is limited. But for a desktop/laptop, where you can have gigabytes or terabytes of storage, why go for an inferior format?

 

[sound1]

To me, lossy formats make sense on portable devices where memory is limited. But for a desktop/laptop, where you can have gigabytes or terabytes of storage, why go for an inferior format?

Of course I (and OP & others) was talking about the portable player here, not desktop.

 

[gryph0n]

Of course I (and OP & others) was talking about the portable player here, not desktop.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you then. I was under the impression that you had archived music as AAC on your desktop.

 

[andy78]

Sorry @ op for hijacking your thread. Just wanted a small query that I wanted to check with other folks here.
What is the best format available for Audio which is better than MP3?

 

[jls001]

What is the best format available for Audio which is better than MP3?

In terms of bit rate requirement, AAC is (way) superior to MP3. But WAV is superior to either:lol:

Even for mobile players, SD cards have become so cheap (16 GB microSD is less than 900 bucks now). Store your music in WAV (or FLAC if it is supported) even in your mobile players and enjoy the music. For example, my HTC with 16 GB microSD contains all 13 Beatles mono albums + 3 more - all WAV. Plus tonnes of photos shot with the phone's camera (and a few videos thrown in).

 

[andy78]

In terms of bit rate requirement, AAC is (way) superior to MP3. But WAV is superior to either:lol:

Even for mobile players, SD cards have become so cheap (16 GB microSD is less than 900 bucks now). Store your music in WAV (or FLAC if it is supported) even in your mobile players and enjoy the music. For example, my HTC with 16 GB microSD contains all 13 Beatles mono albums + 3 more - all WAV. Plus tonnes of photos shot with the phone's camera (and a few videos thrown in).

FLAC or WAV?

 

[jls001]

FLAC or WAV?

WAV. I have not tried FLAC on my HTC. May be I should try.

 

[andy78]

WAV. I have not tried FLAC on my HTC. May be I should try.

And I will be able to get the WAV format when I rip an audio CD in WAV format?

 

[jls001]

And I will be able to get the WAV format when I rip an audio CD in WAV format?

Yes. Use Exact Audio Copy. One of the best free software for ripping. Link here:

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/index.php/resources/download/

You can set EAC to compress the ripped file to FLAC (or even MP3). If your player supports FLAC, then it is a good idea to compress it in FLAC format as it saves storage space. Use default setting of compression (8, IIRC).

You can also rip using Windows Media Player as WAV or MP3 but I think EAC is better.