Music Streamer

[navin advani]

Who is HiMedia and why are so many HFVians excited about it? How does it compare to Popcorn Hour, WDTV, Asus Oplay, etc?

Anyone used Pro-ject Stream Box? How would it compare to Marantz, Cambridge, Oppo etc?

Does does the Dune HD and Slingnox devices compare to Popcorn, WD and Asus?

Anyone studied the Asus Oplay products? They have a huge line up. I got confused.

Where do we get products like PCH, Dune etc? Which of the options I have listed are well supported in India ( preferably Mumbai)?

 

[venkatcr]

Navin, you have to understand one thing about media players. They are ALL made from the same board and circuitry provided by Realtek or Sigma Designs. As I said sometime ago, all these boards are optimised to be completely universal and play everything possible on earth. The focus is on video and not audio.

The excitement about a particular player is based on prices, availability, and support for some stuff that a particular group of people want. Some of these could be HD Audio, support for ISO files, NTFS, files sizes, external HHD readability, FPS, etc.

Based on my experience of looking at innumerable players, here is my take.

1. Dune (HD Max & Smart B1) are about the one players that support FullHD, ISO, HD Audio, and are region free. They are one of the few players that have Blu-ray optical drives. They support NTFS and any file size. The general quality of their hardware is a little questionable. But they are the ideal replacement for an universal Blu-ray player if you are not looking for optimised audio or video circuits.

2. TViX - has an excellent UI and metadata support.

3. PCH - Again, support for Blu-Ray and all that. Is on the open platform and has innumerable applications that are available. Has a waiting period of about a month.

3. XTreamer - very powerful marketing, and first one to use Intel processors.

4. WD - easy availability through their hard disk distribution channel, but losing market share. Solid player but has limitations. I have written a review somewhere in HFV.

You can group all other players including Asus into also-rans.

Dune, TViX, Xtreamer, and WD are available in India through distribution channels. PCH is available only from their web site.

BUT, as I said before, unless you have changed your mind, none of these will suffice your needs for a good music streamer.

Cheers

 

[navin advani]

1. Dune (HD Max & Smart B1) are about the one players that support FullHD, ISO, HD Audio, and are region free....The general quality of their hardware is a little questionable.

2. TViX - has an excellent UI and metadata support.

3. PCH - Has a waiting period of about a month.

3. XTreamer - very powerful marketing, and first one to use Intel processors.

4. WD - easy availability through their hard disk distribution channel, but losing market share. Solid player but has limitations.

Dune, TViX, Xtreamer, and WD are available in India through distribution channels. PCH is available only from their web site.

BUT, as I said before, unless you have changed your mind, none of these will suffice your needs for a good music streamer.

Cheers

I dont mind having 2 different media streamers - one dedicated for audio and the other for video. Lets keep things simple na. Let audio be audio and video be video.

Audio: currently I have about 2000 CDs ripped to Flac or Wavpack (I started ripping to Wavpack for about 600 CDs are ripped to Wavpack and another 1500 are ripped to FLAC). Eventually I would like to access streaming audio via Pandora, Rhapsody other other services just like one listens to FM.

Video: Currently I have my DVDs on DVD but would love to rip them to a hard disk so I dont have to go to the DVD shelf. These DVDs include movies my son or wife watch (I can't watch a movie more than once) or music concerts that I watch. Eventually I would love to be able to download movies and TV shows from services like Netflix, Hulu, Redbox, Crackle etc.. when these services come to India.

Many thanks Venkat. I do NOT mind having 2 media streamers - one dedicated for Audio and the other for Video. I realise that most Media Streamers can do both but I assumed devices from companies like Pro-ject, Marantz, Cambridge etc would be audio centric while those from WD, PCH, Dune would be Video centric.

So one could perhaps get for example a Pro-ject Stream Box for audio and Popcorn Hour 300 for video.

BTW what about Oppo? Where do they fit in?

Which player would you recommend for Audio? ....and for Video?

 

[venkatcr]

So one could perhaps get for example a Pro-ject Stream Box for audio and Popcorn Hour 300 for video.

BTW what about Oppo? Where do they fit in? Which player would you recommend for Audio? ....and for Video?

Why would you even consider Pro-Ject? It has terrible review.

The Oppo is a fantastic optical player, but will have some shortcomings when it comes to networking and streaming.

The PCH is a good choice for video playing. Music streaming? I am not too sure as the industry has just started. It may be safe to start with a SBT and then replace it with a mature product maybe a year down the line. Or, maybe you could just try the PCH and, if you are happy with the sound quality, live with it for a while.

Cheers

 

[NetFreak]

BUT, as I said before, unless you have changed your mind, none of these will suffice your needs for a good music streamer.

Do not agree with that.

With this configuration:

1. Media available via USB/LAN/WiFI
2. Lossless Audio
3. HDMI connectivity to AVR
4. Bitstream mode (No DSP on Media player)

Media player would perform "flawlessly"*.

*Flawless: Performance exactly equivalent to top-of-the-line CD Player connected via digital interface.

 

[navin advani]

Why would you even consider Pro-Ject? It has terrible review.
The Oppo is a fantastic optical player,
The PCH is a good choice for video playing.

PCH for video playing but what about video streaming aka Netflix?

If the Oppo is only god for disc spinning the best it can do is replace my Sony DVD player IF the Oppo is completely region free and will play any DVD our Video Library sends us. The Sony 370 ain't great but it can play back any region disc.

What do we then dedicate for Music? Playback from hard discs and later streaming?

Do not agree with that.
With this configuration:

1. Media available via USB/LAN/WiFI
2. Lossless Audio
3. HDMI connectivity to AVR
4. Bitstream mode (No DSP on Media player)

Media player would perform "flawlessly"*.

*Flawless: Performance exactly equivalent to top-of-the-line CD Player connected via digital interface.

I thin Venkat was referring to the DAC and overall build quality (power supply, chassis, clock, etc) of a good CD player. Most AVR DACs aren't as good.

 

[venkatcr]

PCH for video playing but what about video streaming aka Netflix?

Play Netflix/Hulu on Popcorn Hour (and Xbox/PS3) - YouTube

If the Oppo is only god for disc spinning the best it can do is replace my Sony DVD player IF the Oppo is completely region free and will play any DVD our Video Library sends us. The Sony 370 ain't great but it can play back any region disc.

You are missing the point completely. Oppo is not a DVD player, but an universal Blu-ray player. It can do much more than spin discs. It has some of the best audio and video circuitry in the business. Oppo is region free for DVDs, and can be made region free for Blu-rays with a small hardware change. It can beat just about any optical player in the world for DVD/Blu-ray playback, and thrash most CD players in it's class.

What do we then dedicate for Music? Playback from hard discs and later streaming?

I think you already have enough options. Based on your budget and requirements, choose wisely.

Cheers

 

[NetFreak]

I thin Venkat was referring to the DAC and overall build quality (power supply, chassis, clock, etc) of a good CD player. Most AVR DACs aren't as good.

If AVR DAC is not good, then a good CD player will not make a difference.

Case 1: Digital Input:
A. DAC of CD player is not used at all
B. AVR applies DSP
C. Digital streams of 0/1 is fed as it is to DAC of AVR

Case 2: Analogue Input:
A. CD player sends Analogue signal to AVR terminal
B. AVR samples and converts signals to digital
C. AVR processes signals for things like room-correction, reverb-correction and DSP
D. DAC in AVR feeds signals to pre-amp stage

So, DAC of AVR cannot be avoided and will play spoil-sport if it is not good.

 

[navin advani]

Oppo is not a DVD player, but an universal Blu-ray player. Oppo is region free for DVDs, and can be made region free for Blu-rays with a small hardware change. It can beat just about any optical player in the world for DVD/Blu-ray playback, and thrash most CD players in it's class.

I think you already have enough options. Based on your budget and requirements, choose wisely.

Oh thanks. I was under the impression Oppo was a DVD player that did audio well (which is why it has become so popular). I dont own any BluRay Discs. The movies we watch are rented from the local library or via our set top box.

From what you are saying I understand the Oppo 93 could replace our CD player (Marantz) and DVD Player (Sony) and also supplement our PS3 for Blu Ray playback if we ever do that. The 95 from what I understand would be an serious upgrade from our CD player. To top it all it cal stream Pandora and Netflix as well. What are the limitations of the Oppo?

With this kit one could go region free on Blu Ray as well!!
bluraychip.dk - Oppo BDP-93/95 multiregion DIY kit - PRO version

So far the Oppo seems to be the next best thing to sliced bread. What is the catch? iPad, iPhone compatiblity?

For Music playback I would not want to turn on the TV so the Music device should be iPhone/iPad compatible.

For Play On I believe you need to first download the software to your PC then some how connect the PC to PCH/PS3 and transfer the software to the PCH or PS3.

Case 1:
Case 2:
So, DAC of AVR cannot be avoided and will play spoil-sport if it is not good.

Thanks NetFreak, the AVR I am considering is Yamaha's Aventage 3020.

 

[NetFreak]

Thanks NetFreak, the AVR I am considering is Yamaha's Aventage 3020.

In that case, you already have everything that you need. Reason is:

1. This AVR has built-in Media player
2. Components of Media-player + AVR are pretty good

Just get a 2 TB HDD, fill it with WAV files and connect it to AVR via USB. You do not need anything else.

Skip to 2:47 in this video to see an example

yamaha aventage audio video receiver rx-a3010 review part 1 - YouTube

 

[navin advani]

In that case, you already have everything that you need. Reason is:

1. This AVR has built-in Media player
2. Components of Media-player + AVR are pretty good

Just get a 2 TB HDD, fill it with WAV files and connect it to AVR via USB. You do not need anything else.

Skip to 2:47 in this video to see an example

yamaha aventage audio video receiver rx-a3010 review part 1 - YouTube

What? This is crazy? Is the 1020 also similarly equipped? Do these AVRs read NTFS

I have 1TB hard disk with my WavPack and FLAC files. The 3020 and 1020 are on back order. Expected end July or early August.

 

[NetFreak]

What? This is crazy? Is the 1020 also similarly equipped? Do these AVRs read NTFS

Yes 1020 has it all (including NTFS). Any AVR that is :

1. Priced above $1k in US
2. Is a 2011 model or later

Will have media player capabilities built-in (at least for Audio).

You can just plug-in your HDD/iPod/iPad/iPhone via USB (dont even need a dock that I mentioned earlier in thread)
Or
You can share music over LAN or WiFi and simply play it on AVR.

 

[venkatcr]

Case 2: Analogue Input:
A. CD player sends Analogue signal to AVR terminal
B. AVR samples and converts signals to digital
C. AVR processes signals for things like room-correction, reverb-correction and DSP
D. DAC in AVR feeds signals to pre-amp stage

So, DAC of AVR cannot be avoided and will play spoil-sport if it is not good.

I am sorry. This is completely incorrect. When you send a analogue signal to any amplifier, all it does is amplify it. An analog signal goes directly to the pre-amplifier and power amplifier. There is no conversion, sampling, or anything done by the AVR.

Cheers

 

[NetFreak]

I am sorry. This is completely incorrect. When you send a analogue signal to any amplifier, all it does is amplify it. An analog signal goes directly to the pre-amplifier and power amplifier. There is no conversion, sampling or anything done by the AVR.

That used to be the case till few years back. Now pretty much all AVRs implement things like room-correction in DSP.

Only exception is pure-analogue AVRs that are typically stereo.

 

[venkatcr]

That used to be the case till few years back. Now pretty much all AVRs implement things like room-correction in DSP.

Only exception is pure-analogue AVRs that are typically stereo.

You seem to be confusing terminologies here. An AVR is never stereo, though it can act in a stereo mode. A two channel system is called an integrated amplifier or a pre/power. And, I have never heard of an animal called 'pure analogue AVR'.

In all AVRs that can accept analogue signals, DSP is done for digital signals only. But for analogue signals, there is no DSP. The signal is simply amplified. This is true, as far as I know, for the latest models of AVRs from Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Anthem, Arcam, etc. All of then have a what is called a 'pure direct' or 'stereo' mode where all processing is stopped, and the video circuitry completely side stepped. In some, the video circuitry is actually shut down, and all displays go off. The AVR simply acts like a two channel pre/power amp combined.

Cheers

 

[NetFreak]

Stereo Receivers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

You seem to be confusing terminologies here. An AVR is never stereo, though it can act in a stereo mode. A two channel system is called an integrated amplifier or a pre/power. And, I have never heard of an animal called 'pure analogue AVR'.

For example this:

A-S1000 - Amplifiers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

It has:

1. Multiple Analogue inputs that user can switch between
1. Pure Analogue signal processing (does not have DSP chip at all)

As compared to:

R-S300 - Stereo Receivers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

This too is "Stereo" (does not even have coaxial / optical inputs), but this has DSP.

In all AVRs that can accept analogue signals, DSP is done for digital signals only. But for analogue signals, there is no DSP.

Do not agree with that. The AVR that I have (Yamaha 667), will apply DSP to Analogue inputs.

To turn that off, "Pure Direct" mode has to be selected. Once that is selected AVR becomes an "Amplifier" for analogue sources.
As expected, DSP features like YPAO / dialogue lift do not work in that mode.

The signal is simply amplified. This is true, as far as I know, for the latest models of AVRs from Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Anthem, Arcam, etc. All of then have a what is called a 'pure direct' or 'stereo' mode where all processing is stopped, and the video circuitry completely side stepped. In some, the video circuitry is actually shut down, and all displays go off. The AVR simply acts like a two channel pre/power amp combined.

I checked in Service manual, analogue signals do go through DSP for this model at least that is unless "Pure Direct" mode is selected.

Do you happen to have a service manual for any recent AVR that does not pass analogue inputs through DSP?

 

[venkatcr]

There is a difference between an AVR and a stereo receiver. A stereo receiver is an stereo integrated amplifier that has an radio receiver built in.

An AVR is an Audio/Video Receiver that can decode multiple digital signals in multi-channel format, scale video, understand LFE, act as a switch for multiple inputs, interact with a display device, etc. Though they are both receivers, there is an ocean of difference. You never call a stereo receiver an AVR.

I have already said that AVRs just amplify the analogue signals when set to pure direct or stereo mode.

I suppose I got confused with the nomenclature you used.

Cheers

 

[hemantwaghe]

Stereo Receivers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States



For example this:

A-S1000 - Amplifiers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

It has:

1. Multiple Analogue inputs that user can switch between
1. Pure Analogue signal processing (does not have DSP chip at all)

As compared to:

R-S300 - Stereo Receivers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

This too is "Stereo" (does not even have coaxial / optical inputs), but this has DSP.

I have gone through specs -- where you find these 2 amps and receiver are with DSP??? I am not able to locate any specs

In 2 channel amps PURE mode bypasses Tone controls ( bass ,treble , eq etc) ,sometimes disply circiurty for more "purer" sound

From the specs sheet of R-S300

Pure Direct
??Music signals travel the shortest possible route, bypassing the buffer amp and tone, loudness and balance controls to virtually eliminate any signal degradation for the purest sound quality.

Dunno what buffer amp is - but Tone ,Loudness & Balance controls are not DSP IMHO..

Hemant

 

[NetFreak]

There is a difference between an AVR and a stereo receiver. A stereo receiver is an stereo integrated amplifier that has an radio receiver built in. ......

Regardless of terminology, fact remains that AVR feeds Analogues inputs to DSP.

Have a look at signal path.

I have gone through specs -- where you find these 2 amps and receiver are with DSP??? I am not able to locate any specs

Probably you are looking at a different parts catalog.

Yamaha AVR that Naveen is looking at uses this signal path:

Analogue Inputs --> ADC-> DSP -> DAC

For this AVR, signal path without pure direct:



With pure direct:

Notice that this path bypasses both ADC and DSP. Input remains the same analogue.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I've tried hard to read your diagram, but the type is not clear enough to stand enlarging in Firefox.

This is absolutely not possible, in any sort of equipment:

Analogue Inputs --> DAC-> DSP -> DAC

Do you mean Analogue input --> ADC ?

You can't do digital stuff to analogue signal. On the other hand, one could do digitally-controlled analogue stuff to an analogue system I suppose