Musical Expectations

[Shivam]

Yes, audiophiles have a tendency to make things complicated - maybe, to fit the language of audio that they have invented.

It really is very simple - stereo sound at home is an illusion all right, but an illusion of a reality. If you haven't sampled the reality, how can you judge the illusion!

You have to get to know the "tone" of real instruments, and the human voice. Hearing them perform in a live space is the only way of becoming familiar with their sound. That is the sound your music system should replicate. If it can't, it's not worth your consideration.

Also, we relate to music through our emotions. Those emotions do come out when you see and hear musicians perform. Some of that feeling you should also experience listening to music at home. If you don't, that system isn't worth it.

Viren

Refer to my earlier post (post no. 2)

This is the reason why I prefer listening to learning musicians in their living spaces. There is no amplification involved and I can enjoy the true 'tone' of the music instrument or the voice.

Why learning musicians or not too famous musicians ? They agree to play just for the joy of playing and I don't have to shell out money to hear them play.

 

[Ambio]

Live music is far from perfect. Not all concert halls have great acoustics.... .

Wise words from a man who knows about live music than most of us. What is live music? What is perfect live music? Is western classical music the standard of finest musical sound? I would like to think a small group bhajan or a unamplified Carnatic concert in a good acoustic hall should be the reference.

The trouble with musical reproduction is due to the wrong belief that stereo playback is the accurate way to recreate live music. It is practical and convenient but not accurate. Of course, you cannot change 100 years of usage overnight. In fact, I don't believe that would even be possible.

Many years ago, I used to have a regular visitor (HiFi guru (sic)) who used to say that the piano and vocals didn't sound "correct" in my system. This is contrary to what the long time dealer and the designer described about the sound. The Hifi guru's opinion carries more weight than the dealer's. That brings us to the original question. What is correct sound? Is your live sound is correct or it sounds correct because of the reverberation and echo?

A Steinway piano can sound different. The violin in BSO, MPO or The Vienna Philharmonic will never sound identical in the recordings. The difference is due to the ambiance. The difference will be obvious in your system. It has been demonstrated that it is possible to recreate concert hall sound but it is not practical.


I am going to go of tangent here to bring us to another comment about concert music. I am not a western classical music (WCM) lover. There are just a few classical musical piece that moves me. I do not understand them. Of course, by admitting so I am relegated to the outcast simpleton commoner strata of the society without class and taste for the finest. I am not going to pretend to like something that doesn't reward me. My time is too precious to be pretentious. Emotionally, I am detached to WCM unlike other music that brings meaning to me.

Everything about WCM is rather paradoxical to the true purpose of music. Music should move your soul and body. Try expressing yourself by tapping your foot or clap in sync with the music in a orchestra house. When JF Kennedy was shot, the announcement of death was silenced by the shushes when some audience expressed shock. That's the culture of WCM lover. It is unreal. Watch the conductor, watch the spectator -scroll through where you can see the audience involvement 0r lack of it and at the end to the response. Watch the baby. here and here and here and here and here and here. Try playing WMC and see the reaction. Will the tears roll?

And real music that moves people. My eyes still tears watching this. Tell me if you have seen this kind of emotion in a WMC???



I don't understand the obsession with reference sound to be equated to concert hall sound. When the concert hall sound itself is not real but about 75% ( I may be wrong with ratio) of reverberated sound. In another word - HUGE COLOURATION. And not mention the loudness level. Most instrument peaks to about 130 to 140 dBSPL which is equivalent to a jet take off. I would say be thankful that you are not recreating concert hall sound in your room!

The best way is to recreate the simple sound that your are familiar with. Vocals are ideal. Piano can be perfect but a piano will always sound better in highly reverberating room than a well damped room where the vocal will sound right.

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hi Ambio,

You have gone off on a tangent - that's fine. What type of music moves people is for them to judge, no preconceptions required.

My bone of contention is with you regarding reverberant sound as unreal. Which world do you inhabit? Ever try to isolate yourself from your living environment - possibly, only in an anechoic chamber? It will drive you batty in a few minutes!

As a species, we have been indoctrinated to use direct and reflected sound to locate and to protect ourselves. Our ancestors lived in forests and caves - what better differentiation between direct and reverberant sound. Our instincts are grounded in that.

Lately, technology has prompted us to listen very artificially - through headphones. It is a completely artificial way of listening - in fact, very recent learned behaviour. It will take generations, if ever, for us to genetically accept it as normal. (Not that recordings through headphones don't sound natural and good, but that's because the reverberant sound is already in the recording).

So, your premise on how to evaluate recordings is wrong.

Viren

 

[Ambio]

....
My bone of contention is with you regarding reverberant sound as unreal. Which world do you inhabit? Ever try to isolate yourself from your living environment - possibly, only in an anechoic chamber? It will drive you batty in a few minutes!..

You are implying as if I live in a hole. You have no idea how important is reverberation for musical enjoyment. Reverberation creates sense of space. It comes from various angles. Whatever reverberation that contains in the recording will never give you the being there feeling simply because the reverberation is two point source (stereo). This is one of the uniqueness of sound psychoacoustics that it is almost impossible to recreate two identical concert halls.

It took 38 diapole speakers to replay the reverberation from various angle to recreate the concert hall sound in a quasi-anechoic room. If you say the recording already contained all the reverberation then you should be listening to the recording the anechoic chamber and it should sound exactly like the live music.

 

[jls001]

When the concert hall sound itself is not real but about 75% ( I may be wrong with ratio) of reverberated sound.

Many of the famous concert halls were constructed before the advent of electronic amplification of sound, so carefully engineering the architecture and material of the halls was necessary to carry the sound to furthest reaches of the hall. Reverbs are a necessary evil. Some halls are better than others.

Many audio equipment reviewers like to state that listening to so and so gear was like being in the audience of such and such concert hall (some are specific about naming a particular concert hall to perhaps highlight the fact that another hall may sound different), further qualifying the experience with terms like "in the tenth row" (meaning it has a more laidback presentation), or "the front row" (for forward/in-you-face presentation).

Concert hall experience is a good reference, but not absolute. In fact there's no absolute and standardized reference in audio. But we still like to indulge in our hyperboles to describe the audio experience. I think it is mostly harmless, and should be treated as such.

 

[Hiten]

(Snip) I am going to go of tangent here to bring us to another comment about concert music. I am not a western classical music (WCM) lover. There are just a few classical musical piece that moves me. I do not understand them. Of course, by admitting so I am relegated to the outcast simpleton commoner strata of the society without class and taste for the finest. I am not going to pretend to like something that doesn't reward me. My time is too precious to be pretentious. Emotionally, I am detached to WCM unlike other music that brings meaning to me.

Everything about WCM is rather paradoxical to the true purpose of music. Music should move your soul and body. Try expressing yourself by tapping your foot or clap in sync with the music in a orchestra house. (snip)

Allow me to be Offtopic : Why constrain music only with foot tapping or clapping or which moves ones 'soul' ? Music can be happy, moving, sombre. hilarious or melancholy. We don't keep foot tapping mood 24/7.

Tell me if you have seen this kind of emotion in a WMC???

Internet is funny place. Seek and one will find what ever one wants. Classical music
Song with good lyrics Everyday people
Regards.

 

[captrajesh]

To get live sound they first need to be recorded and played back binaurally.

As per my understanding, 'binaural recording' is a method of recording conducive for playback via headphones and as per Wikipedia: "

Binaural recording is intended for replay using headphones and will not translate properly over stereo speakers.

"
Could you elaborate how would a binaural recording be able to replicate live sound?

A couple of months back, a high end company conducted live solo violin vs recorded playback. They couldn't tell guess correctly.

Recorded replay in concert hall vs live unamplified sound also with the same result that people couldn't tell the difference.

Since it is organised by a high end company, (audio equipment company I presume) it is not hard to guess that the sound would've been engineered to sound the way it would've sounded. But you say that it is 'live unamplified sound' Sounds incredible to me.

i think i should invest in those speakers and play my songs sung by me on them

That's the whole objective of the exercise I guess.hyeah:

I would expect it to be pretty hard work to make recorded playback identical to the source.

It would've been the other way Thad. Logically, they would've engineered the source to sound the way it would sound from the "high end" equipment. But it is said that it is 'live unamplified sound'

 

[dheerajin]

I hope people are treating music and sound separately

music consistes of sur taaal..sa re ga ma..or do re mi...

so played in any system music is going to be same

Sound differrs from system to system...

A common man is happy with 128kbps mp3 file enjoying thru his mobile phone.

I think there should be a cable (power & speaker) available to reproduce natural sound

 

[arj]

A couple of months back, a high end company conducted live solo violin vs recorded playback. They couldn't tell guess correctly.

Recorded replay in concert hall vs live unamplified sound also with the same result that people couldn't tell the difference. I am afraid you are wrong on this one.

the result cannot be better than the source, and if it is then the system is compromised..aka Bose

Do you really mean they made it better than the source ?

 

[Ambio]

.. Reverbs are a necessary evil. ...

Not really. They are part and parcel of natural sound.

.. Many audio equipment reviewers like to state that listening to so and so gear was like being in the audience of such and such concert hall (some are specific about naming a particular concert hall to perhaps highlight the fact that another hall may sound different), further qualifying the experience with terms like "in the tenth row" (meaning it has a more laidback presentation), or "the front row" (for forward/in-you-face presentation)..

This sounds exciting. Could you please provide me the link.

.. Concert hall experience is a good reference, but not absolute. In fact there's no absolute and standardized reference in audio. But we still like to indulge in our hyperboles to describe the audio experience. I think it is mostly harmless, and should be treated as such.

+1 to that. Hope newbies will take note of that.

 

[Ambio]

Allow me to be Offtopic : Why constrain music only with foot tapping or clapping or which moves ones 'soul' ? Music can be happy, moving, sombre. hilarious or melancholy. We don't keep foot tapping mood 24/7. .

And falling asleep...

Internet is funny place. Seek and one will find what ever one wants. .....

My point is the obsessing with people to treat WCM as the absolute reference. They are more of acquired taste. In my country, it is bit funny because most of the high ender hardly listened to classical music in their early life. But just like every other audiophiles they would buy the WMC to impress. Fact not fiction.

If not for corporate sponsorship most of the orchestra symphony would close shop. The public do not really care for WMC.

Ms Benedetti, who last month won the best female artist at the Classic Brits, argued earlier this year it is ridiculous that classical music was marginalised in schools because of the perception that children do not find it "fun."

 

[Ambio]

As per my understanding, 'binaural recording' is a method of recording conducive for playback via headphones and as per Wikipedia: ""
Could you elaborate how would a binaural recording be able to replicate live sound?

..:

Wiki is not always up to date.

Chesky Records would like to introduce its new Binaural+ Series. Binaural sound has been around for a long time, but until now it was just for headphones and could not be enjoyed on speakers. Our Binaural+ Series recordings sound great on headphones and speakers, and capture the sound of music as you would if you were sitting in front of the band.

Anyway, I asked Thad to use it with his headphones to experience how a proper Ambiophonics would sound like. Stereo recordings already have all the information. You should hear the same effect of depth, soundstage, clarity and timbre.

 

[Hiten]

And falling asleep...

 

[Ambio]

Do you really mean they made it better than the source ?

Did I? I don't see where I said that. But it is possible to make the reproduction to sound clearer than the live sound by filtering the noise floor and other unwanted noise.

 

[Ambio]

.....
A common man is happy with 128kbps mp3 file enjoying thru his mobile phone.
...

The same common man will be happier playing 320 MP3 with his iPod. But for an audiophile even a DSD would not be enough. :lol::lol::lol:

 

[dheerajin]

The same common man will be happier playing 320 MP3 with his iPod. But for an audiophile even a DSD would not be enough. :lol::lol::lol:

If common man can identify the difference in 128kbps & 320kbps, then he would be classified as audiophile:lol:

Since there is still not consesus among audiophiles for mp3 and Flac/Wav..

 

[jls001]

Compression has now mysteriously made its way into the thread. As has binaural recordings. So very soon we can expect the flavours of the season, namely, DBT, power cables, digital versus analog to make their way into the thread.

Same old. Same old

Hashed, rehashed arguments. People, we're stuck in a rut. It's upto us to lift ourselves above it, or be happy with the warm and fuzzy feeling at rock bottom.

 

[Ambio]

If common man can identify the difference in 128kbps & 320kbps, then he would be classified as audiophile:lol:

Since there is still not consesus among audiophiles for mp3 and Flac/Wav..

Maybe so experts help me out here. I believe Flash and Java are changing resolution of the file.

Compare here.

mp3ornot.com

Can humans hear a difference between low bitrate and high bitrate MP3s? - Quora

I can tell immediately with the second link but not he first one.

Aiff, , Flac, wav ?. I dont care. They are good enough for me to warrant further analysis.

 

[prem]

Agreed jls001. It's sad that every thread comes down to this. I have lost all interest in this forum.

 

[prem]

It's sad people don't use their own ears and depend on statistics for proof. By that submission people should be buying Bose because it's by far the highest seller. Why bother about DBT and stuff like that. Chances are most of them involved in the DBT will anyway be having a Bose in their homes