Musical Expectations

[Ambio]

Compression has now mysteriously made its way into the thread. As has binaural recordings. So very soon we can expect the flavours of the season, namely, DBT, power cables, digital versus analog to make their way into the thread.

Same old. Same old

Hashed, rehashed arguments. People, we're stuck in a rut. It's upto us to lift ourselves above it, or be happy with the warm and fuzzy feeling at rock bottom.

What then should we discuss under this topic? Shall we go back to your post #25. I did and waiting for you.

@Prem. Yes. It is very sad. I was in the state of denial for several months when I found out I couldn't tell the difference. It was really sad... I empathize with you.:sad: BTW, nothing is wrong having a BOSE. Do not look down please. I use a Sharp speakers.

 

[prem]

Ambio, it's unfortunately only you who is unable to hear a difference. You probably belong to that 50% in a DBT who can't hear a difference. And I probably belong to the other 50% which can hear a difference.

 

[Ambio]

Ambio, it's unfortunately only you who is unable to hear a difference. You probably belong to that 50% in a DBT who can't hear a difference. And I probably belong to the other 50% which can hear a difference.

And at other times you will belong to the other side of the 50%.

 

[prem]

I guess since both of us seem to be enjoying our music on our respective systems, we should let it be. After all that's what this hobby is all about

 

[Ambio]

I am not stopping you. Just stating facts.

 

[prem]

What is facts to you is probably not facts to others. Because a whole lot of us trust our own ears.

Maybe tomorrow you might start questioning if all chai is the same because ingredients are pretty much the same. Maybe we should do a DBT for that too

I think this whole concept of a DBT for a sensory related thing is the dumbest thing I have heard of

 

[Ambio]

What is facts to you is probably not facts to others. Because a whole lot of us trust our own ears.

Maybe tomorrow you might start questioning if all chai is the same because ingredients are pretty much the same. Maybe we should do a DBT for that too

I think this whole concept of a DBT for a sensory related thing is the dumbest thing I have heard of

I don't recall mentioning DBT in this thread but even if I did then it is in the context of the discussion. Having said that, I have repeatedly said that you should trust your ears. Your ears only. Not your eyes or your prior knowledge about the product.

So once again, I trust my ears. Do you? I trust my ears that I can close my eyes and tell whether differences exist or not. You are telling that you trust your ears so I say let your ears decide and you say no. I am confused - Do you really trust your ears or not. DBT is all about you ears only. The senses that you said you trust.

 

[prem]

I normally live with my changed piece of equipment for about 15 days. Get used to it. Then revert to the older one for a week or two and then figure out which I like better. That's the one I keep. I never rush into something because initially it may sound nice but over a period of time you realise you may not like it's overall presentation.

I feel DBT for audio is a little flawed as a concept because it relies on memory

 

[dheerajin]

Jls001..you are responsible for this
by mistake or no mistake ..you gave a new turn to this thread by introducing
few absent words..

 

[prem]

I agree dheerajin. Yes jls001 you are responsible for taking this thread in a different direction

 

[Ambio]

I normally live with my changed piece of equipment for about 15 days. Get used to it. Then revert to the older one for a week or two and then figure out which I like better. That's the one I keep. I never rush into something because initially it may sound nice but over a period of time you realise you may not like it's overall presentation.

I feel DBT for audio is a little flawed as a concept because it relies on memory

I too think that is bit flawed because I believe our brain/memory able to fill in the missing details under DBT. In medical research they do find some gaps in DBT.

The way you do DBT is ok. That's how I will conduct as well. It used to be other's job to make the changes. I have written about the procedures in the DBT thread. I compare my notes at the end of the period which can be days, weeks or months. The trick is you should not have any idea what you are listening to.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Also, we relate to music through our emotions. Those emotions do come out when you see and hear musicians perform. Some of that feeling you should also experience listening to music at home. If you don't, that system isn't worth it.

We can feel music from one of those portable cassetter players with a 1-inch speaker, let alone a boombox or a modest hifi.

Of course, if I didn't believe that we do get a certain something more from spending a certain amount more, I wouldn't be here, but there is no "quality cut-off" point for music.

(Hmmm... I disagree with myself: there is a point beyond which it no longer sounds like music... but the actual bar is really pretty low)

Wise words from a man who knows about live music than most of us.

maybe average of two concerts a week for past ten years. There are many to whom that is hardly getting started! And I wasted most of the classical/rock/etc opportunities that London gave me, sometimes because of expense, sometimes because of laziness.

What is live music? What is perfect live music? Is western classical music the standard of finest musical sound? I would like to think a small group bhajan or a unamplified Carnatic concert in a good acoustic hall should be the reference.

It doesn't always work like that. I have listened to T N Krishnan "unplugged," and the experience was great, but the sound was not so amazing.

Everything about WCM is rather paradoxical to the true purpose of music. Music should move your soul and body. Try expressing yourself by tapping your foot or clap in sync with the music in a orchestra house.

Just because the classical western audience looks like a bunch of stuffed shirts does not mean that they are not being deeply moved.

I don't understand the obsession with reference sound to be equated to concert hall sound. When the concert hall sound itself is not real but about 75% ( I may be wrong with ratio) of reverberated sound. In another word - HUGE COLOURATION. And not mention the loudness level. Most instrument peaks to about 130 to 140 dBSPL which is equivalent to a jet take off. I would say be thankful that you are not recreating concert hall sound in your room!

And I don't understand the obsession with hifi for just playing pop and film songs! :lol:

My point is the obsessing with people to treat WCM as the absolute reference.

But Western classical music is the yardstick for hifi --- because it presents the greatest challenge. There is nothing else with such a variety of sounds, such a wide range of frequencies, such a soundstage with dozens of instruments laid out on it, and such huge dynamic range. It is also the least likely to have been murdered by the mastering engineer. There is nothing like it for testing, or for showing off, hifi.

But if a person doesn't like it, then, regardless of all that, it isn't going to work for them.

 

[prem]

Ambio, even in medicine, doing DBT for psycho related drugs is considered very controversial. For some other diseases it's ok since results are measurable

 

[Ambio]

@Thad. Just a quick one. Who are they to set the standard? When Oshashi was doing his research on music and effect of hypersonics he did not use classical music. He used Gamelan for their rich harmonics content.

If something is good. People would listen to them. I am not saying they are uninvolving. Otherwise, I wont be having any in my collection. The idea of using them as how your Hifi system should sound is a wrong reference. WMC is dying and belongs to the rich and famous. Even, with free corporate tickets I don't bother to attend them anymore. And that just about 10 minute drive to the basement parking. Why? They don't allow song request.

 

[Ambio]

Ambio, even in medicine, doing DBT for psycho related drugs is considered very controversial. For some other diseases it's ok since results are measurable

yes Prem I got no issues with that. I am only interested in music. Why wouldn't you trust your ears 100%. Just like when they experiment with eyes. They found out sight aided with sound perceive vision differently and wrongly. And did you do you blind test as described? or were you aware of the product your are testing.

 

[dheerajin]

I think, its better if MODS merge this two threads.:lol:

http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge...flac-cables-sample-rates-tube-amps-etc-9.html

 

[jls001]

What then should we discuss under this topic? Shall we go back to your post #25. I did and waiting for you.

I will start bookmarking such reviews and share.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

@Thad. Just a quick one. Who are they to set the standard?

"They" didn't. As far as I'm aware, no WCM person has ever said that they are the standard. As far as I know, Western classical music and jazz have played a part in the development of hifi, and orchestral/choral music reigns supreme under the headings I mentioned, not because anybody says it does, but because, quite simply and plainly... it does!

That does not mean that you, or anyone else, has to like it.

When Oshashi was doing his research on music and effect of hypersonics he did not use classical music. He used Gamelan for their rich harmonics content.

Oshashi was not looking for hifi. He has a point to prove, which is specifically about ultrasonics, and it seems he has been, so far, none too careful with his science. Interesting and attractive though it may be to think that ultrasonics may affect the brain, not necessarily via the ears, Oshashi [from what I read] did not prove it. He is, I think, still trying: maybe one day he will!

 

[jls001]

Sorry, all My little subliminal suggestion brought out into the open what was dormant and simmering below the woodwork

Now that it's in the open, fire away at will!!!

 

[Ambio]

@Thad.

@Thad. Just a quick one. Who are they to set the standard? When Oshashi was doing his research on music and effect of hypersonics he did not use classical music. He used Gamelan for their rich harmonics content.

If something is good. People would listen to them. I am not saying they are uninvolving. Otherwise, I wont be having any in my collection. The idea of using them as how your Hifi system should sound is a wrong reference. WMC is dying and belongs to the rich and famous. Even, with free corporate tickets I don't bother to attend them anymore. And that just about 10 minute drive to the basement parking. Why? They don't allow song request.

Actually, it was the audiophile community used classical music as the yardstick for system evaluation which is rather silly considering most speakers and room would play full range nor would hit the peaks of a classical music. I am always very carfeul to play the wide dynamics Telarc Cincinnati Pop orchestra. It think any recording without limiter would mostly damage 90 % of the amplifiers and speakers.

One the part of listening to Bollywood and pop songs in HIFi system....I can only say you do not know what you are missing. Many of the cinema songs were made with orchestra and many different types of instruments. I have to say I started to listen to Tamil songs after going high end. Just try AR Rahman Rocx. OTOH, I am tired of audiophiles recordings. Maybe, a guitar and a piano. Cinema songs are better made and mastered. Rich musical content and they are soundtracks which most audiophiles favourites.

The next time you want to to use WCM to test your system, please check whether the dynamics range is the actual range of a concert hall recording. The closest I think of is Telarc CD I mentioned above and I have never dared to play it at the normal level that I listen to other classical music. With such limitation, I don't know what comparisons are they doing with WMC and HIFi system.

And about Oshashi, he wasn't looking for high frequencies alone but the harmonics content too. bone conduction has been proven and there is some progress being made understanding about frequencies beyond audible range playing the role in other aspects. Whether they are useful for musical reproduction is another question.