New Design, SE 6005 Directly Coupled Audio Amplifier
- Thread starter drlowmu
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01- 07 - 2022.......................... GTOs .............................GTOs...........................GTOs !!!
Remember how the two GTO caps we use ( 5 uF at 1200 VDC ) were described by me as " totally defining the leading edge of audio transients" Totally unbeatable in the Power Supply as a bypass ( me and Boli46 ) and unbeatable as a bypass in a speaker crossover??
Below is a very handy listing, of all the WIMA brand caps, and what their different models DO. ( Thanks, Hari Iyer ).
In that, I spotted just a single mention of a GTO ( GTO MKP ) . Please note how WIMA characterize this cap type's performance.
It is precisely what we all heard !!! This datasheet / application guide , of course, debunk's GTO-zero-experienced people.
I came to using GTOs, by being the first person in the USA to listen to it, try it out, about five years ago. When located as a bypass inside my amps, and on a crossover, not a thing in this world, can begin to touch it !!
How else, can someone DIY- try to build a higher performing audio amplifier ??? Maybe even - dare we think , ( if direct coupled, two tube stages, ultra low in DCR ), the best sounding there is ??
http://wima.cn/EN/applicguide.htm
Arrogance, nope. It's just the simple truth.
Live....... and learn. Enjoy your audio hobby !!!!
Jeff
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Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.
Remember how the two GTO caps we use ( 5 uF at 1200 VDC ) were described by me as " totally defining the leading edge of audio transients" Totally unbeatable in the Power Supply as a bypass ( me and Boli46 ) and unbeatable as a bypass in a speaker crossover??
Below is a very handy listing, of all the WIMA brand caps, and what their different models DO. ( Thanks, Hari Iyer ).
In that, I spotted just a single mention of a GTO ( GTO MKP ) . Please note how WIMA characterize this cap type's performance.
It is precisely what we all heard !!! This datasheet / application guide , of course, debunk's GTO-zero-experienced people.
I came to using GTOs, by being the first person in the USA to listen to it, try it out, about five years ago. When located as a bypass inside my amps, and on a crossover, not a thing in this world, can begin to touch it !!
How else, can someone DIY- try to build a higher performing audio amplifier ??? Maybe even - dare we think , ( if direct coupled, two tube stages, ultra low in DCR ), the best sounding there is ??
http://wima.cn/EN/applicguide.htm
Arrogance, nope. It's just the simple truth.
Live....... and learn. Enjoy your audio hobby !!!!
Jeff
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.
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There is 2 mention - Energy storage and discharge / snubbing
RtoR King
Active Member
Just because a capacitor is CAPABLE of handling nano second rise times does not mean it creates them.
While these capacitors will work fine in a baseband audio application, standard foil, even electrolytic caps will perform the same and be a lot smaller and less costly.
Read the numbers on the extended data sheet which was not reference here. A "fast" beat in a song or track is hardly "fast" by electrical standards.
You can't apply what seems a common sense conclusion to complex engineering problems. If electrical engineering, especially the behavior of a capacitor to a complex AC waveform was that simple to understand, it would be taught in late grade school!
While these capacitors will work fine in a baseband audio application, standard foil, even electrolytic caps will perform the same and be a lot smaller and less costly.
Read the numbers on the extended data sheet which was not reference here. A "fast" beat in a song or track is hardly "fast" by electrical standards.
You can't apply what seems a common sense conclusion to complex engineering problems. If electrical engineering, especially the behavior of a capacitor to a complex AC waveform was that simple to understand, it would be taught in late grade school!
RtoR King
Active Member
This "letter" addresses your ideas and thoughts here with a precise degree of accuracy!
It's as if the author read your mind!
Gudebrod audio
New Member
I’m curious here, do you build audio equipment? and if yes do you listen it? Because you stated that a variety of capacitors will perform the same. They may operate the same but do they sound the same? Not trying to start a fight just curious about what you stated.
RtoR King
Active Member
Yes to both.
Capacitors can sound different. My point here is that installing a special application RF grade capacitor does not increase the risetimes of musical signals. And also since audio is at the bottom of the EM spectrum, the rise times of signals is quite slow compared to other electronics applications. These ultra fast risetimes are not there to begin with.
It's being implied here that an audio amp needs an extreme slew rate to properly reproduce audio. That's just not true. It still falls under the classic 5x rule.
And interestingly most modern audio amps have a 100khz limit which is perfect. Anything higher, which some exotic amps are, is asking for stability problems. And furthermore a tube amp is hard pressed to even do 100khz because of the output transformer.
I fully accept the fact that when someone states that they did this or that and, in their opinion, the result was a sonic improvement. That's not the cause of any conflicts. Conflicts arise only when someone declares without any basis that some specific physical mechanism is responsible for the improvement. The use of GTO capacitors is one example. It's one thing for someone to say that the use of GTO capacitors improved the sound that they are hearing, but it's another thing to assert that it's the ultra-high current capability and/or high slew rate of GTO capacitors that is what at is responsible for the sonic improvement. Anther example is the use of tie wraps to bundle shielded coaxial cables. It's one thing for someone to express their epxperience that bundling coaxial cables is detrimental to the sound, but its another thing to assert that the reason is because cable ties disrupt a demonstrably non-existent field around a coaxial cable. The bottom line is that this thread is overloaded with one proclamation after another that blatantly contradicts decade of well investigated, well documented and well established priciples in physics, science and engineering. And that's the crux of the conflicts that exist.
RtoR King
Active Member
If I may add, I love build threads. I have many I follow on YouTube and other forums. And not just electronics either, But what is irritating here is this grandstanding while belittling others, including the industry as a whole, which is utterly ridiculous anyway.
An example is the RCA jack. Saying 99% of amplifiers are designed wrong is offensive and without any merit. Why not just say you like to place your RCA jacks within inches of the input tube to avoid noise, Nobody will have a problem with that. But that does not mean anyone who doesn't do this or questions the validity is a fool.
It's the narcissistic boasting that really turns people off and probably why some people are no longer welcome on participating audio forums.
An example is the RCA jack. Saying 99% of amplifiers are designed wrong is offensive and without any merit. Why not just say you like to place your RCA jacks within inches of the input tube to avoid noise, Nobody will have a problem with that. But that does not mean anyone who doesn't do this or questions the validity is a fool.
It's the narcissistic boasting that really turns people off and probably why some people are no longer welcome on participating audio forums.
I could not disagree with you more,. To reply with what one knows to be the truth, point-to-point or otherwise is a manifestation of strength and coviction. Not reacting to statements that one knows are false is the epitome of weakness and cowardice Which side of the coin are you on?
Do you have the sort of courage that is needed to take to a stand and justify your position, or are you someone who is just blowing smoke by criticizing others who actually have convictions to publicly staate what they believe is the truth?
Gudebrod audio
New Member
Ok, so you understand the details can explain why they sound different I’d like to know and I’m sure several other here also would like some one to explain this. (Speaking if the gto caps)
There is no universal perfection in audio. Listening is very subjective. What is perfect for one need not be perfect for another. Guys posting here think there is nothing better than their design. I think this is being naive and stupid. It might be the perfect sound for the posters but that doesn’t make it universal. Pl stop pushing around that what you’ll design is the best thing that happened since sliced bread. If that was the case there would have been just one amplifier manufacturer in the world. 
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
One is entitled to think that what one builds is the bees knees - nothing wrong in thinking that. The problem starts when one starts thinking (delusionally?!) that everyone else is/was doing things wrong and only "I, me, myself" am doing things right. This grandstanding is wrong! And if grandstanding, one should be open to people opposing ones point of view and one should also be able to back ones conviction with rational explanations.
Also, quoting from the Grapes of Wrath or invoking sayings involving dogs, cats, rats, lions or elephants, is not a rational counter to anything!
Also, quoting from the Grapes of Wrath or invoking sayings involving dogs, cats, rats, lions or elephants, is not a rational counter to anything!
I agree completely!
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Range of impressions in the audio universe (yeah, it is a parallel universe, sometimes).
"I like it" - totally understood and appreciated
"I like it because of this/that it does to my ears and senses" - very happy for you
"I like it because it is designed this/that way and measures wonderfully" - thanks for laying out design methodologies and measurement techniques
"I like it because I designed it this way and everything else is BS (including EE/physics)" - well ... what can we say, we'll just chuckle and move on
This thread is an "interesting" read in some parts but bizarre in some aspects.
Cheers,
Raghu
"I like it" - totally understood and appreciated
"I like it because of this/that it does to my ears and senses" - very happy for you
"I like it because it is designed this/that way and measures wonderfully" - thanks for laying out design methodologies and measurement techniques
"I like it because I designed it this way and everything else is BS (including EE/physics)" - well ... what can we say, we'll just chuckle and move on
This thread is an "interesting" read in some parts but bizarre in some aspects.
Cheers,
Raghu
Don't bother with replies from " Armchair Audiophiles". It does not mean anything.
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There is no universal perfection in audio. Listening is very subjective. What is perfect for one need not be perfect for another. Guys posting here think there is nothing better than their design. I think this is being naive and stupid. It might be the perfect sound for the posters but that doesn’t make it universal. Pl stop pushing around that what you’ll design is the best thing that happened since sliced bread. If that was the case there would have been just one amplifier manufacturer in the world.
Hello Perm,
I agree with some of what you say, but respectfully, not all. I have always felt amps are easily the weakest link, not speakers.
To that end, since about 1982, I have been personally designing and building my own tube amps, to come up with something that would please me, and be as close as possible to the best there is to be listened to, by any means available - to me.
In the course of the past four decades of building tube amps, I have either developed or copied design ideas, some very different and unique. I KNOW, from my own direct experiences listening, which work to my liking.
I feel people truly " cop out" to deny the possibility that an amp design can't be , if not THE best, then " one of the best " in this entire world. It is to that precise end, I dedicate many of my waking thoughts and actions, over the last four decades.
It's been a lovely journey of discovery for me. Until I meet up with people on line, who do not agree with what I seriously and honestly strive for. People perhaps like some in my thread, who all share a common denominator, they have never heard the designs.
Only by NOT ever hearing any of my better designs, could you, or anyone else, legitimately call me naive and stupid. . Hearing is believing. I also think your " hearing is very subjective " comment - is also somewhat of a wishy-washy partial cop out.
Some in this world, have visited and heard my better amps, and they do understand fully.
For the record, I build for myself. I have only sold two of my DIY amps, in my entire life. These buyers each solicited me. I build to make something that might please me, which can be used long term. My use, and longer term happiness, is what counts.
Regards, best of luck, and best wishes to you,
Jeff
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Drlowmu, as long as you are happy with your designs and what you are hearing, that’s all that matters. The problem comes when you start insisting that speakers have to be a minimum of 100 dB, you should use amps only if 2-5 watts, etc etc. You have put forth your thought. Leave it at that. You can’t keep on bringing it up in every post of yours. Let others decide whats best and what works for them.
I hardly bring up over 100 dB and a large radiating surface area on every post.
The fact is, in the tube world, the very best sounding output tubes ARE low powered. Make no mistake about that. To use the best sounding output tubes, requires a high efficiency system.
As a recent ( exciting to me ) example, this 6005 output tube amp beats every other output tube, and it's accompanying amp, I have ever built or ever heard. YMMV. It does this by a subjective estimated factor - of perhaps 20 percent. It is the output tube mostly doing this here, and a reasonable circuit. But the 6005 output tube only has a 12 Watt rated plate, and is outputting maybe 1.5 Watts in tetrode mode.
A 97 to 98 dB small radiating area speaker is unusable . Why force yourself into lesser options??? Start off right ...... and you are " there " for the rest of your life. People need to be taught this Prem. I wish I was, when I was in my 20s.
Jeff
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