Norco Cases Anyone?

SumitB

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I am considering to get myself a server cabinet to store all my media files. At the moment I have 10TB of data (movies, music, photos) and at the rate at which I download, I may end up with 20+ TB by the end of next year. I had considered getting myself a Norco RPC-4220 server cabinet (24 HDD Bays) and got a quote of about 30k from kmd a few months back. Had to put the idea on the back burner due to a few family related issues but now am reviving the plan. Looking at the number of members who are interested in data storage for NAS purposes, I though it appropriate to start this thread. How many of us would be interested to procure a server chassis for our storage needs? Also, does anyone have any contacts with some company or service provider who deals in these high densite storage racks?

At the moment, I am considering the RPC-4224 which is the upgraded version of the 4220. It retails for about 379$ on newegg. It has to be ordered through iccworld or 20north as KMD has been underground for quite sometime now.

If anyone is interested, please post here.

Links for the 4224: Norco Technologies, Inc.

We can use a free Storage OS like FreeNAS or even the commercial offering like WHS from MS. We can add to our storage as and when we feel the need.

Suggestions from our members will be appreciated.
 
I am considering to get myself a server cabinet to store all my media files.... I had considered getting myself a Norco RPC-4220 server cabinet (24 HDD Bays) and got a quote of about 30k from kmd a few months back.....

At the moment, I am considering the RPC-4224 which is the upgraded version of the 4220. It retails for about 379$ on newegg. .......



Links for the 4224: Norco Technologies, Inc.

...............



Suggestions from our members will be appreciated.
Hi sumit, this is the way to go!! Many members would be interested am sure. I for one would be interested.... Let me read up before I commit to a group buy(not interested in group shipping). I have dealt with KMD before and except that he goes underground so often, he is very good. So I switched to Borderlinx.com would recommend to you. Search on hfv and you'll find lots of info on BL.
 
:eek:Goes underground?? With the money paid??

Goes missing rather or does not reply to PMs/posts. KMD is a dealer in Techenclave who can get things from US for you at a cost. I got my projector through KMD in those pre-borderlinx/vpost/ICC days. Come to think of it, that was one of the biggest risks (you have to transfer half the amount to KMD - an anonymous person who only exists in the virtual world) I have ever taken....nothing bad about KMD though. He has a very good reputation on TE and has got higher priced stuff. So, I went ahead with KMD and I was a little tensed:o during the one month till the projector landed at my place.
 
I was eyeing this exact case for my unRaid NAS build but the landed cost (in India) of the server case was way too high for me. Though this case is best suited for the job, I remember reading reviews that it is very noisy with all those fans (you can opt to throttle them to reduce noise to a certain level at the expense of cooling) and if used as a media server should be placed in the basement/garage/separate room to isolate the noise.

I'm still sitting on the fence on which case to buy but I feel Cooler Master Centurion 590 cabinet is a VFM solution. This has nine 5.25" Drive Bays which could be converted to take hot swappable HDD stacker modules (Ex. from 3-to-5 SATA drive modules from IcyDock). They even comes with internal RAID backplane. This combo with three 4-in-3 modules can hold 12 Hot-swappable HDD's or 15 Hot-swappable HDD's with three 5-in-3 modules

Since I don't need hot-swapping facility that often, I'm thinking of getting even cheaper stackers which just holds the HDD's. Still undecided.

Sample images from the web:



Cooler Master Centurion 590 cabinet with three 4-in-3 Icydock HDD SATA RAID backplane holding 12 Hot-swappable HDD's


MB455SPF-B 5 in 3 SATA I & II Internal Raid Backplane

If the case cost can be negotiated down to earthly levels, I could sill be interested in the Norco cases
 
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One second thought, since the hdd byas are hot-swappable, I don't mind this one. No point, spinning so many Hard-disks all the time. What do you guys think of this one available for $69 at newegg.

Norco Technologies, Inc.

SumitB/Digitalv: Tell us more about these. I have a 3TB etrayz NAS, and would like to overcome some of the painpoints involved in data copying\transfer.

Questions:
1) Will the disks be readable if I insert them in my home pc running Win 7/Ubuntu?
2) Etrayz converts both the disks such that it can only be recogonised by it. Will this be the case here as well?
3) Any Guid Partition Table Issues? Has a driver been written using which I can read GPT Partitions using OSes like WinXP? I think only Redhat and one more flavour supports GPT.
 
One second thought, since the hdd byas are hot-swappable, I don't mind this one. No point, spinning so many Hard-disks all the time. What do you guys think of this one available for $69 at newegg.

Norco Technologies, Inc.

I guess the one you've quoted is just a HDD cage with no storage processor. Functionality wise, it is exactly similar to the Icydock one which I quoted above. So you'll need a RAID card and/or a motherboard which supports so many SATA ports to use it along with a SW RAID implementation

1) Will the disks be readable if I insert them in my home pc running Win 7/Ubuntu?

Not sure whether I got you question correctly. Almost all RAID implementations are compatible with Win7 and Linux in terms of accessibility to the array.

But if you were asking if individual discs from a RAID array "once detached" is readable on Win7/Linux platforms, the answer is it depends on the RAID implementation. If the volumes are striped, then you cannot read them individually and you will need the full raid array. This is why I prefer unRAID wherein each disk is independent and can be any standard file system. It can tolerate single HDD failure and if more than one HDD fails, you simply loose just the contents of those and not the entire array as in WHS.

2) Etrayz converts both the disks such that it can only be recogonised by it. Will this be the case here as well?

Depends on RAID implementation as discussed above.

In unRaid implementation, only the discs which are accessed are spun up and all others are spun down. A rarely accessed drive may be spun down for months together.

More details on unRAID: FAQ - UnRAID
 
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First, thank you for the responses. Gives me a lot of courage to commit myself fully to the thread and also showms that I am not alone on the boat.

Now coming to the question of why such a large case? I must say that this question was there on my mind when I got to know about it too. This was an odd 2 years ago. At that time, I used to get 720p encoded mkv files off the net. Collected about 50 movies and then realised that our ISPs were kind enough for us to get the 1080p files also. In another 3 months, I had collected about 100 more movies and all with an average size of 15GB. In the process, I also started replacing my previously downloaded 720p files with their 1080p encoded files. God had a surprise planned for me and on one fateful day, I realised that one of my drives on my WHS system had crashed due to a failed northbridge fan. This was all stored in a crappy Intex cabinet which was a clone of the famous LanBoy cases. I did not realise this failure till there was a short circuit in my electric cabling and my UPS failed on me. I had over 400+ movies by then and about 20000+ music files encoded in either FLAC or 320Kbps MP3 and all neatly tagged with album art and cd covers. I was devastated but at the same time I did not loose heart. I got my act together and decided to invest in a proper setup as by now I had realised that the future of entertainment was in digital storage. It would be foolish for me to collect more movies and music without a proper file storage setup and while I do what is required, I connected the RMAed drives to my main system which could accomodate upto 6 drives. I again have a collection of about 250+ movies mostly encoded in 1080p and a few in 720p. Apart from this, I have about 4000 music files in FLAC or 320Kbps mp3. All in all, I again have about 10TB of digital media files with no further room for expansion. At the same time, I invested in an APC 3000UXI and re-did my house wiring to connect all my electronic equipment to this UPS. Now, its time to get the data storage in order. I can very well get the Cooler Master case DigitalV suggested but I know that once I populate the bays, I will once again look blank. I will then either have to dump the case or get another case and wait till I populate that one too. So the solution for me was to get something like the Norco 4224 and prevent this situation from arising from time to time. Looking at the pace at which the file sizes of the better encoded files are growing, it wont be long before our favourite movies come in file sizes of over 20GB or maybe even 25GB and this is not mere speculation. Also, I am not talking about the Blu-ray disc images here. So the question was what should I get. After browsing and googling around, I came across the Norco cases through the wonderful forums at hardforum.com

The idea of getting the hot swap bays will work but then it defeats the whole idea of having a storage server in the first place. I need this server so that I don't have to keep swapping drives when I need to watch something in the middle of the night and want all my digital media to be accessible at any given time at the click of a button.

I also understand that for us, it is not feasible to invest in 24 hard drives at once. Atleast this is the case with me. So I need a solution which allows me to keep adding to my storage pool without having to rebuild or reinstall anything. Something like what the current WHS offers. However, as many of you will be aware, MS has deicded to drop this functionality from the next upgrade of WHS which is currently known as Vail. So I think I will have to shift to FreeNAS which offers this functionality. Also, UNRaid has this functionality too.

Also, this system will be a 24/7 system and as is the case with most servers, it will sit in the basement or any place where the noise won't make a difference. There was an issue with the RPC-4220 which caused the hard drives in the chassis get too hot. However, this was more a case of lack of documentation than design flaw. This issue is documented here. With the release of the RPC-4224, Norco has taken care of these issues also.

When I got a quote for the 4220 from KMD, it was about 30,000/- but this was a good 8-10 months back. However, I assume that the new case would come for about 25-30k inclusive of shipping. Add to this, the cost of other peripherals and we are looking at 50+ grands minus the cost of the drives.

Norco however, is NOT available in India. So we have to get it imported. However, the other option is to get a similar case from SuperMicro which is available in India. The case which is similar to the Norco 4224 retails for about 1000$ on newegg and comes with a redundant 900W Power Supply which alone would cost over 5000/- INR. This should be available in India through a few resellers who do Supermicro.

Get a decent server up and running and keep adding the drives as and you need it.

Now the power requirements for a 24/7 server would set you back by about 1000/- bucks for a fully loaded system (24 drives). This is for hard core enthusiasts and would serve you well for a long time. If you need more than 24 drives, the solution would be to get another RAID card and another chassis and connect it using the available cables and you have another 24 drives to play with.

Now coming to a few questions:
1. How to get the chassis for cheap?
2. Would Supermicro be an option?
3. How many would be interested?

More ideas would be appreciated.

PS: I have been trying to post this reply since morning. Sometimes the laptop screwed up, sometimes the ISP went down. You may find this post confusing as I lost track 3 times. Please post your questions and comments here and I will reply. You also need to take a look at hardforum.com. They have some showcase data storage servers and there Norco is a choice among many enthusiasts.
 
^^

Hey sumit..

Can i tell u something. have u considered that the Drive space increases each year in 2x. somewhat.....
last year 1 TB was norm. this year its 2 TB. Soon that issue with 3 TB discs will also be solved and the drive space will be increased. So u need to account that also.

My suggestion will be the CM stacker with 4 * 4 in 3 Modules from CM. or 3 * 4 in 3 from CM + 1 * 4 in 3 Hot swap from LianLi or 4* 4in 3 Hot swap from Lian Li .

Upgrade ur HDD's to the 2 TB Seagate LP ones and sell the old ones. The total price might come under 50k. Still u only using 10TB. u got 7*2TB disk space or hdd slots left.

Also i am not considering and 1 : 1 data mirror at all, if so i see very good sense in going for that Rack mount.
 
Jerin, thanks for responding. Its good that drive space increases each year. We get more flexibility for future storage. So if today 24 bays gives us 48TB today, maybe after a year, we can store 60 or even 72 TB in the same chassis. That is why we need a flexible OS which allows us to add to the storage pool as and when the need arises.

About the CM cabinet, I have already reasoned why I don't want to go with it. I am looking for a long term solution to my storage needs while keeping the space required to store the cabinets and equipment at the minimum. The Norco 4224 or the 4220 is a 4U rackmount case. If the need arises, I may get a 2nd hand 48U rack and this allows me to expand my total available bays to 288 bays (48/4*24) using the same 16 or so square feet of space. Using RAID card and commercially available cables on a server grade motherboard, you can use the 3 additional chassis as slaves and all the drives will be accessible on the same OS. I don't think this is doable with the CM cabinets if I am not mistaken.

Also, here it is not about the one time investment. I can very easily invest 50k as you have mentioned and populate the cabinet but it still won't give me the flexibility of a rackmount chassis. I still will run out of space after filling the 16 drives or maybe even 20 drives. Then what will I do? You really need to use a server grade chassis to think about serious data storage. I have realised this after burning my fingers and having lost a lot of data in the process. Many of these lost files, I have not been able to download again which is a PITA.
 
I agree 100% to most of what SumitB has explained.

One counter opinion though. I'm exaggerating a bit here but a simple SMPS OVP failure can fry all 24 HDD's in case of a single server holding 24 HDD's whereas if you really had a need for 24 HDD's and split it into 2 servers (12 each), the loss is possibly halved. Mobo, RAID Card, RAM, PSU etc are not too expensive to have 2 servers in case of such requirements.

In this digital age, I don't think we can ever have enough storage. Our Storage needs keep on increasing but the good part is storage costs keeps coming down the same way. My daily download volumes currently hovers around 12-16GB per day and I'm all in for more secured storage to protect my data. My only deterrent with Norco case is the cost. If we can bring it down in the 20K whereabouts, I'd say it is totally worth it.

I'm dead sure that many on this forum have more than 10TB of data to store. Please pool in your strategies and suggestions.
 
DigitalV, the Supermicro case for example comes with a redundant 900W power supply. Infact, you really need a good power supply with a server. Moreover, it would be foolish to ignore a good power supply in a data storage server.

I don't think the cost of the norco can be 20k or under if we have to get it imported. It retails for about 300$ online and is about 20 kilos.

We need to look at alternatives here and I am only aware of the Supermicro cases as an alternative. Anyone else has any idea about this?

If we use server grade components, I don't think we need to worry about the reliability. I am keeping about 100k budget for this complete build. To start off, 50-60k would be a start off figure.

About the download volume. Sooner or later, we will get 2Mbps or even 4Mbps speeds without the FUP from our state run BSNL and MTNL. Once this happens, pirates like me will be able to download 50GBs in a day. There is a lot of data online which I would like to have. :D Already, I am using 2 x 512Kbps links from BSNL and using it with a Dual Wan mod of Tomato firmware on my Asus router and I do about 7-10GB easily. I think when BSNL upgrades us, 30-50GB will be a daily affair.
 
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First I need to see whether I can get a 24 bay chassis. Then I will definitely look at a 1:1 backup solution. I wish KMD was still around. I would have got the 4224 through him only.
 
Today I got a call from the Kolkata office of Netweb Technologies. They distribute Supermicro in India and it seems they do have a few 24bay 4U chassis in stock with them. They will be mailing the quotation for a few models by Monday. I will update here once I have their response.

Also, it seems that Supermicro has a few 4U chassis which has 24 front loading HDD bays and can also accommodate another 12 drives in the main bay housing the motherboard. Adds to "the more, the merrier" saying when it comes to storage.
 
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Guys an update. Over the past week, I have been communicating with a few distributors in India who do Supermicro and Chenbro server components and I have concluded that these dealers are taking us for a ride. What costs 1000$ in India, is quoted at 86000/- Plus Taxes + Freight which is ridiculous! Not to give up, I posted on Hard Forums and a few veterans came up with a configuration for me:

Prelim build for now (20 drives right off the bat):
$115 - Intel Core i3-540 CPU
$280 - Supermicro X8SI6-F
$57 - Kingston 2 x 2GB ECC Unbuffered DDR3 1333 RAM
$100 - SuperMicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 PCI-Ex4 8 Port SATA Controller Card
$110 - Antec Truepower New TP-750 750W PSU
$60 - 4 x Norco C-SFF8087-D SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 Multilane SAS Cable
$13 - Norco C-SFF8087-4S SFF-8087 to Multi-lane SATA Reverse Break-out Cable
---
Total: $760 plus tax and shipping.

Alternative build (24+ drives)
$115 - Intel Core i3-540 CPU
$280 - Supermicro X8SI6-F because it has 8 builtin SAS2 6.0 gbps ports. The LSI2008 ROC it uses supports expanders like the HP SAS Expander (recommended below). ATX size, LGA1156 for use with Core i3 CPUs for plenty of horsepower when needed but still low energy use and low heat. Has builtin IPMI 2.0 with virtual media over LAN and KVM-over-LAN support (you can access the BIOS and install the OS from a remote computer, no keyboard, mouse or monitor needed).
$300 - HP SAS Expander - PM Synergy Dustin for exact Price
$57 - Kingston 2 x 2GB ECC Unbuffered DDR3 1333 RAM
$110 - Antec Truepower New TP-750 750W PSU
$90 - 6x NORCO C-SFF8087-D SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 Internal Multilane SAS Cable - OEM
---

I then got a quote from ICC World for the following Components:
Norco RPC-4224
Supermicro Supermicro X8SI6-F
Necessary Cables
RAID Expander Card

They quoted under Rs. 50000/- for these. The purchase will be on newegg. The Chassis is listed for about 400$ and the motherboard is for 290$.

I will get the other components locally.

The OS of choice will be Windows Server 2008 R2 and I will install FlexRAID + FlexRAID View. I posted a thread about FlexRAID on TE and I am quoting it here:

I am not sure how many members have used or are using Windows Home Server on TE. I adopted WHS a couple of years back and the feature which made me adopt it was Drive Extender which basically allowed a user to simply plug in a new drive and add it to the storage pool when you run out of space. No drive letters, no nothing. This was a boon with NAS and I grew my storage from about 2TB to 10TB in less than no time. This makes it very easy for media streaming when your library is shown as one and you don't have multiple drives to explore when browsing through your media. However, something bit MS and they have now decided to discontinue DE in the upcoming upgrade to WHS currently codenamed Vail. According to MS, DE was not compatible with drives above 2TB which is why they have decided to do away with DE.

Now, I am in the process of getting myself a server chassis with 24 Hot Swap HDD Bays and other server grade components to give my media a permanent and scalable home. I decided on the components and before I was ready to get them, I had to find an alternative to WHS's DE and came across FlexRAID. Basically this with its FlexRAID View is the answer to WHS's DE. Some are also claiming that FlexRAID is better than the original DE as it protects your data and not drives. The best part about FlexRAID is that you don't need a RAID array for it to work and its compatible with Windows and Linux. For example, if like me, you have 4 2TB drives in your system and have your movies and songs all over the 4 drives. When you browse your files, you will have to go through multiple drives and multiple directories. However, with FlexRAID installed and FlexRAID View configured and running, you can have a single Virtual Folder called Movies and all your movies from the 4 drives, will be accessible as one! Ditto for your Music and Photos. I have been trying this for the past few days and found no issues. No data loss, no corruption and I am not running any RAID. This was tried on a desktop machine running Windows 7 x64. One other feature of FlexRAID which I have not yet tried is that you can also combine a Network Share as a Spanned Drive. Its flexible to the core. You need to go through the forums of FlexRAID for the tutorials and examples. The possibility is endless.

I am now going to order the components for my server and will install Windows Server 2008 R2 and FlexRAID and hope to have a permanent solution to my always expanding data.

Edit: If you want more information about FlexRAID - What is so much cool about FlexRAID-View?

This is for the reference of our members here. I will post here once I have the components and I have the build ready. This however, will take a couple of months as I don't have the money to get the equipment now. :(
 
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Thanks Sumit for the information.

I went through this exercise a few months ago (my needs are more modest at around 4-5 TB). After looking at the options available in India, I decided to build one of my own using AMD Sempron, Asus M4A88T-M and Coolermaster CM 690 II (6 internal 3.5 inch drive). Currently I am experimenting with FreeNAS and unRaid and will choose one of them for production (prob by end of Jan).

I will be keenly watching this thread. Please keep us posted.

NAS - a set on Flickr

-Dinesh.
 
I have been trying to post this reply since morning. Sometimes the laptop screwed up, sometimes the ISP went down. You may find this post confusing as I lost track 3 times.
Yeah that is why, for such long posts, it makes sense to type out the message in a blank word file and copy and paste the content after you are done. If not, at least keep copying your post once a while on the RAM by
pressing Cntl A and Cntl C once a while.
 
Why dont you take a look at the link I have posted ?
Prime Source - SC933T-R760B - High end 3U with SAS / SATA Backplane for Dual Processor Boards


Prime Source - RM-519 - High end 5U with SAS/SATA Backplane for Dual Processor Boards

Welcome to Prime Source

They do have various models for storage and in case if you need a quote I can help .. just send me a PM for the prices .

For the data security part , you will need to go in for a raid5 setup rather than just have individual disks .
For a Raid 5 setup you will need 3 disks for a group . For the SAS controllers and MB /processor you can just go in for the entry level stuff .

A word of caution : Go in for enterprise SATA . Do not buy the "home " editions . The enterprise drives are double the cost , but worth the investment . For comparision a 2tb home edition desktop drive costs 6,000 approx . A 2 tb enterprise storage drive costs 15,000 .
 
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